[Closed] So is 27. 5+ dead in the water?

The Cube rep said similar, they'd allocated no factory time for plus but extra for ebikes. They've sold more fatbikes than expected too

Quite a few companies are already softpedalling it and talking about 2.6 as being the best option, pretty interesting development... 2.6 isn't even a thing, once you take into account the conti or maxxis rubber ruler, they'll probably be 2.4s...

TBH I don't really get it. I mean, I tried Plus and for me it was just plain bad but it seems to have generated a lot of good chat and interest. And manufacturers are getting the hang of the dual purpose thing too which is a huge deal- I think many people buying the Plus sized fuel ex will soon regret it, but if they do, they can easily fix it, it's literally the same frame for the 29er. And vice versa of course though that'll be the route less travelled...

It doesn't seem to be the same as with 29ers where the companies that had screwed up 29 like Giant and Santa Cruz had good reason to back another horse, either. If I was less cynical I might actually say that the companies backing 2.6 genuinely think it's better.

The honest plus threads tell a story of crap rubber that is either puncture prone or too heavy. Otherwise it's all just a long list of how amazballs it all is and how it's the future....
Apparently lots are being sold but I never really see any out on the trails here, kind of get the feeling it's just going to curl up and die somewhere

I got an Orbea Loki earlier in the year and bloody love it!

I'm not the most technical or aggressive rider but it really works for me. The extra grip gives me loads of confidence and Strava shows that I'm quicker on it than my previous bikes.

Superstar tend to wait until something sticks, then jump on the bandwagon.

Does this mean there's an outside chance of a standard hub width becoming a thing?

I've noticed a few 27.5 bikes heavily discounted in the sales.

Yes plus will go the way of the dodo
2.35-2.6 will be the normal. Plus tyres are either run at high pressures so you don't get tyre squirm roll at the lower pressures. But then at a higher pressure there is less grip. They could make the tyres have stronger sidewalls to reduce tyre roll but then the tyre is heavier which nobody would want.

The tyre tread options are terrible
So the main tyre sizes that stay will be 2.35-2.6 as they are a good weight around 1000g or less you can have strong sidewalls and the tree are more durable.

Boost will stay as it's another means to sell new product. For the meantime I have no issue running a 2.35tyre on a 40mm rim in a 100mm fork and 142 back end with plenty of mud clearance!

Superstar are the part of the bike industry that we look to for innovation now? I thought they just made cheap versions of stuff someone else already made?

I don't think it is dead, we are just starting to get proper tyres (minion 2.8" etc) and then they will make sense for more riders

My ebike came with them but doubt I'd have gone for them if weight was an issue.

Superstar are the part of the bike industry that we look to for innovation now? I thought they just made cheap versions of stuff someone else already made?

Your second comment answers your own question. If we expected SS to innovate we'd be whinging they haven't released 28.3++ or something. The very fact they jump on bandwagons means their business is predicated on following successful trends, so I'd have thought they were a good touchstone of how the market is going, and are in a position to be more honest to a consumer than an LBS who has a 27.5+ sat on the shop floor gathering dust and tying up cash.

Superstar are the part of the bike industry that we look to for innovation now? I thought they just made cheap versions of stuff someone else already made?

No but they are quite responsive to trends that stick. For them adding a plus rim to the line up would be pretty easy. Most of their manufacturers in the far east will have them, just order a few hundred rims, the right length spokes and 4 months later you have a plus sized offering. Its interesting they aren't doing it as it would be among the easiest new products they could bring to market.

I wouldn't see plus as 'dead', just that it never was the future in the way some suggested. It's simply one option and it has distinct pros and cons imo, that makes it a weaker case for being a good all-rounder.

2.4 on a big rim is still my preferred all-round wheel format but there's not a lot of choice in 2.4 trail tyres, and zero between there and Plus. I'd rather see more choice in the 2.4-2.6 range than more 3" tyres personally. Combined with the right rim they're a better all-round option alongside the choice of 2.25-2.3s if you're not the sort of rider who matches kit to conditions much and prefers just a seasonal change of tread for everything they ride.

It's the same as saying 29" or 640b is dead because not everyone is using it. We are never going back to the days of 26" where everyone will ride one wheel/tyre size so the fact that it isn't the most popular choice doesn't mean it is going to go away completely.

Specialized, trek, Santa Cruz etc wouldn't get on the "bandwagon" if it wasn't going to be worth it

I have to agree with jameso's sentiment. I never saw B+ as the NBT, just a subset.

I'd like to try 2.6" as well. Considering the lack of real rubber choice in 2.8 and 3.0" currently I expect it to be a while before I get the chance.

There was a good thread a while back (where north wind was distinctly unimpressed with his B+) which are some interesting points.

I kinda recall when 29er tyre choice was pretty limited too. And its naysayers... 😉

Normally the second I buy anything it becomes obsolete. So having TWO 650b+ bikes pretty much heralds any chance of them becoming mainstream 😉

I had the opposite experience to NW. I've run my Flare-Max on 29 and 650b+ and I prefer it on the latter. I've also ridden in lots of different places and don't find it more compromised than any other trail bike. Different sure but not more compromised.

Also having ridden a Stache 29+ and 27.5+ back to back, they are both lots of fun but really quite different. Hard to see how both will continue to get development tho. The point about these bikes being a branch rather than a whole new tree is a good point.

I've had more fun riding the Stache and the Flare than I did with my non-chubby stache and on Pyga 29-10. So as a sample size of 1, that's made them worth the investment for me. Who knows what'll be 'on trend' this time next year....

[quote=jameso ]I wouldn't see plus as 'dead', just that it never was the future in the way some suggested. It's simply one option and it has distinct pros and cons imo, that makes it a weaker case for being a good all-rounder. I'd agree. Going from skinny to fatbike made me realise that a middle ground would be excellent for many rides. I don't know if some manufacturers were worried they'd miss another boat if they didn't jump on it right away. As usual though, folk who haven't tried it will be automatically negative, believing anything bad they hear about it to be true and ignoring any positives. Luddites gotta ludd.

I've currently got two bikes which can run B+ wheels and 29 wheels.
Each setup rides different enough that it's worth the price of extra wheels to turn two bikes into four bikes.
B+ for dry conditions and 29 with spikey tyres for muddy conditions. Seems a nobrainer to me.
I'm still not getting all the punctures comments there seem to be on here.
I've done a week in the alps a week in Spain and numerous uplift days and only had one puncture on the + and that was a thorn puncture witch would have happened with any tyre. All the uplifts and both holidays saw numerous punctures on mates bikes with none + wheels.

Future proofing is becoming a nightmare.

Too many standards ..

I say plus sizes have a place just as fatties do , The only reason I sold my plus bike was down to tyres ,at the time i could find any light enough or aggressive enough for what i wanted , but i guess companies wont do R+D on tyres till the market picks up.

saying the ive just seen the new Norco Torrent ...but the price !!

B+ is ace on short-travel hardtails, loads of grip, awesome small bump cushion. I know people here struggle with anything other than binary, black and white thinking - viz, 'it is the future and no other wheels size will exist in five years time' versus 'It is without any redeeming features and will cease to exist in six months', but the reality is that it works really well in the right context and quite badly in others.

I could stick 29-inch wheels on for winter, but I've just wakened the Mmmbop from hibernation and swapped the seatpost over instead. I'm going to stick some Maxxis 2.5s on the Scrapers and see how that goes as well.

They're the future / they'll never catch on / they're the future / they'll never catch on / they're the future / they'll never catch on / they're the future / they'll never catch on / they're the future / they'll never catch on / they're the future / they'll never catch on / they're the future / they'll never catch on / they're the future / they'll never catch on / they're the future / they'll never catch on / they're the future / they'll never catch on / they're the future / they'll never catch on / they're the future / they'll never catch on / they're the future / they'll never catch on / etc 😕

Currently running:
DMR Bolt - 26 x 2.4
Surly Instigator V.1 - 27.5 x 2.2
Genesis Vagabond - 29 x 2.1 & 700c x 28c
Surly Krampus - 29 x 3.0
And they're all great!

Just need to add a 27.5 x 2.8/3.0 to the fleet and I'll be rocking all the options 😉

Scotroutes
As usual though, folk who haven't tried it will be automatically negative, believing anything bad they hear about it to be true and ignoring any positives. Luddites gotta ludd.

And the same people who work in the industry will continue to hail every pointless new standard and excuse the rapaciousness and greed of the manufacturers.
🙂

I quite like big tyres btw.

Nah, "the industry" is equally full of Luddites, Fatbikes and 29ers being two classic examples of styles that have grown despite much negative coverage in the media and denigration from many retailers.

Colin, that graph you have would be useful again here !

Nah, "the industry" is equally full of Luddites

Not one of whom is prepared to do or say anything apart from endlessly repeating the nonsense fed to them by the manufacturers.

Oh, hang on, we had a slightly ambiguous wheelsize piece by Chipps last year, long after the boat had sailed.
Nice and balanced then.

Happy new year.
🙂

Agree that it seems to be settling down as a niche rather than the new normal, but still surprised Superstar haven't got a wheelset to tempt people looking at converting their 29ers.

Saying that, they seem to be putting more focus on their UK-made products at the expense of re-stocking basic items (like current Avid brake pads) - so they may have taken their eye off the ball a bit, or be trying to re-position themselves?

I bought a kickstarter Rooster and by the time it arrived thought that 29+ was dead in the water- turns out it's the correct rim size for plus size tyres 😆 ...

I was really surprised when Spec, amongst others went for plus size on full suspension- bigger squirellier undamped tyres overriding all the stuff we've been trying to sort out in suspension for years- precision, predictability and control. And the only gain, imo is a bit more grip in ideal traction conditions- no matter what you paint it plus size tyres dont work as well as narrower tyres in normal (damp to slick) UK riding conditions.

In comparison to being underwhelmed by 650b plus on an fs bike, I love 29 plus on a rigid bike, which exaggerates the characteristics that differentiate a 29er from a smaller wheeled bike- the rollover ability is almost ludicrous, there's a smidgin of uncontrolled suspension (enough for most trail centres) and it takes more work to steer, offset by the improved grip.

vinnyeh - Member

I was really surprised when Spec, amongst others went for plus size on full suspension

If you want to make it mass market you've really got to go all in and do full suss and hardtail- partly because that's such a big sector and partly because it's a simple marketing message, "more fun, more grip" is a universal, it's hard to sell "more fun, more grip but only on a hardtail". Halo effects too, people buying a £600 hardtail are still influenced by the trends in full suss.

(course, "more grip" is debatable anyway, none of the plus tyres I've tried actually offer that in many circumstances compared to equivalent thin tyres but it's the recurring message)

Squirmy tyres at silly low pressures that are prone to punctures?....where do I sign up!

I'll stick with 2.4 and 2.5 thanks, might try 2.6 if they'd clear my frame's

Are we not going back to the days of the Nokian Gazzolodi if the manufacturers actually build tyres strong enough for mountain bike use!?.....otherwise they're just flimsy POS that seem to punture every ride.

I love my 650b+ I also love the same bike with 29er wheels on, two bikes for the price of one 🙂

course, "more grip" is debatable anyway, none of the plus tyres I've tried actually offer that in many circumstances compared to equivalent thin tyres but it's the recurring message

My take is that they give more float and more traction on smaller, choppy stuff on a hardtail and on Strava anyway. Seeing as no-one here is likely to have an objective measurement of 'grip', it's all subjective and will depend on a whole load of variables including tread pattern, rubber compound, tyre pressures, surface, arse-ometer calibration accuracy and what you had for breakfast. They're better anyway. 😕

When are we going to ditch the word "standard" in cycling, "platform" is the better term IMHO.

I'm a Plus fan, bought into 29er's in 2009 and loved it from day one was running up to 2.4's on them, this year I had a good deal on a 650+ (Cannondale Beast of the East 1) tried it for a couple of days before buying and really enjoyed it, so much so I parted with my cash.
I've been fast on my usual routes compared to the 29er but it's not all about speed, I'm fastest on my road bike but I like my fillings in my teeth.
I'm not too fussed if it fades but I hope it doesn't, I'm certainly not going to bitch and moan about another choice.

[quote=deviant ]Squirmy tyres at silly low pressures that are prone to punctures?....where do I sign up!
I'll stick with 2.4 and 2.5 thanks, might try 2.6 if they'd clear my frame'sWhy as wide as that? You could go down to 2.1 or less.

iain -

[img] [/img]

Squirmy tyres at silly low pressures that are prone to punctures?....where do I sign up!

Not had a puncture on the Krampus since going tubeless. About 12psi front and rear, not squirmy at all. Maxxis Chronicle front and Vee Trax Fatty rear - both about 1000g.

Why as wide as that? You could go down to 2.1 or less.

Tried it when I came back to MTBs.....then discovered 2.2 Panaracers....then 2.35 High Rollers....then 2.5 Minions.

Each has offered more grip without sacrificing too much drag and mud clearance, there will however be a rule of diminishing returns whereby any new wider tyre will drag, clog up with mud, roll around on the rim etc....the trick is finding the balance, if I rode XC all day epics I probably would use 2.1 widths but my riding is winch and drop or uplift days which is why I'm 2.6 curious at sensible PSIs and Maxxis's supertacky compound on the front.

If it's crap I'll go back to 2.4 and 2.5 fronts.

Like the idea of it but the cost of tyres puts me right off.

£37 isn't bad for a tyre these days?

https://www.rosebikes.co.uk/article/schwalbe-nobby-nic-evolution-tl-easy-mtb-tyre/aid:872308

Squirmy tyres at silly low pressures that are prone to punctures

Thanks scotroutes, a picture replaces many words !

[img] [/img]

I started this year on 26in, started building a niner EMD because I fancied a 29er.... But had a try of a broken road at Northern Grip and really liked it, was tempted to get one, but didn't. Having finished my niner I prefer 29 (chunky and smorgasbord) because it's got the right mix of cushion vs dig in.

Its only just getting started. Problem with all wheel sizes is that the first gen tyres are designed for America, therefore of very little use in the UK for 364.5 days of the year. Same was said about the 29er size at first, the same wheel size you're all raving about now. That didn't change until aggressive tyres started to appear. It'll be the same with plus.
I'm running Rekon+ and they've been great in all conditions.

I'm running Rekon+ and they've been great in all conditions.

Problem with all wheel sizes is that the first gen tyres are designed for America, therefore of very little use in the UK for 364.5 days of the year. Same was said about the 29er size at first, the same wheel size you're all raving about now. That didn't change until aggressive tyres started to appear. It'll be the same with plus.

First time I tried 29ers, I liked lots of things about them, I didn't like the lack of any decent tyres and the mandatory 72deg head angles. Look where we are now with 29er development!

It's annoying that for whatever reason, the US market seems only to be interested with weight and rolling speed, and we have to make do with crap rubber as a result until the market matures and the tyre manufacturers start listening to UK customers.

I'm running Rekon+ and they've been great in all conditions.

That's the thing though, at £120 an end (yes really, though about £90 if you shop around) they'd need to be absolutely bloody amazing everywhere and last twice as long as anything else at the same time to consider them! I suppose the price is only likely to come down as and when the size becomes more popular too, so it's a bit of a catch 22 situation, but I think it's coming.

Certainy I'd ike to give the upcoming 2.8" Maxxis Minion DHF/DHR2 combo a go.

Certainy I'd ike to give the upcoming 2.8" Maxxis Minion DHF/DHR2 combo a go.

That's the thing though, at £120 an end (yes really, though about £90 if you shop around)

Thought + bikes were only any good for novice riders...

🙄

psycorp
That's ones one of mboys quotes from previous threads not mine...
Try actually reading the thread.

Thought + bikes were only any good for novice riders...

I've certainly commented on how I felt that + tyres would be more beneficial for Novice riders on harder terrain like trail centres, and given the complete lack of agressive rubber until just recently I'll maintain that their appeal to harder riders has been limiting...

The same would have been said about 29ers in general for probably a decade or so until manufacturers started recognising they weren't just for XC racing and the tyre companies got on board too.

B+ has held little appeal to me until recently because of lack of decent tyres on the market. This looks like its starting to change.

Never paid anything even remotely like that for the four I own.

Let's hope you don't need a new one soon then, you'll have a shock! 3 months ago they were £90 RRP and available for about £65 online, RRP is now £120 and online prices gone up in line too.

the complete lack of agressive rubber until just recently I'll maintain that their appeal to harder riders has been limiting...

i paid 290 Euro for 2x Knards 120tpi in late 2013, when about the only place in the whole world with stock was was singlespeed.nl and i had a full build waiting for tyres 🙁

TBF even earl + rubber was more than up to anything you're capable of so I'm really not seing your problem.

for sure, so much web hate about knards being terrible in the wet when i had a krampus, i got on fine with them 😕

Now Knard were and still are Shite. 😆

One problem with 27.5+ is that manufacturers make a bike that'll take them and 29, and then the BB is too high as a 29...

Not with a small chip in the linkage though. 😉

TBF even earl + rubber was more than up to anything you're capable of so I'm really not seing your problem.

😉

[quote=mboy ]I've certainly commented on how I felt that + tyres would be more beneficial for Novice riders on harder terrain like trail centres, and given the complete lack of agressive rubber until just recently I'll maintain that their appeal to harder riders has been limiting...I hope you're not running 1x11. All that back-pedalling will be giving you gyp 😉

[quote=b r ]One problem with 27.5+ is that manufacturers make a bike that'll take them and 29, and then the BB is too high as a 29...Some are doing tricks with suspension links and/or drop-outs to resolve that. I run my Pact in both B+ and 29 guises and the changing BB height has little effect. It probably helps that I'm running full 3" tyres though - that'll minimise the difference.

I hope you're not running 1x11. All that back-pedalling will be giving you gyp

😆

I have an ebb so can alter the BBC height 😉

I hope you're not running 1x11. All that back-pedalling will be giving you gyp

12 actually... But who's counting?

BTW you were quoting the shite rubber stuff when +Rekons were about too.

Rekons are certainly the best + tyre available right now, but they're an equivalent to an Ardent maybe. They're certainly not aimed at hard(er) riders or riding. Availability of the 2.8 Minion's and HR2's should up the ante.

It's annoying that for whatever reason, the US market seems only to be interested with weight and rolling speed, and we have to make do with crap rubber as a result until the market matures and the tyre manufacturers start listening to UK customers.

Mboy have you thought that perhaps grip can come from something other than 'big spikes?' Likeeeee a nice round 3" tyre? Perhaps plus tyres don't have to be designed like normal tyres...

Coming off a mary/minion setup and now running WTB Ranger 3" toughs.

Tyre set is the same weight, grip is higher, they roll faster, I am faster. Up and down.
Everything is that last bit is fact.

Mboy have you thought that perhaps grip can come from something other than 'big spikes?' Likeeeee a nice round 3" tyre? Perhaps plus tyres don't have to be designed like normal tyres...

On some terrain, yes I quite agree with you.

For the trails I ride mostly, even in the summer a squarer profile tyre with aggressive side knobs is preferable.

I hope not as really enjoy riding my 27plus, I almost got the stache 29plus but due to my height issues even on the small the 27plus was the perfect choice, 3" tyres 100mm front sus, I really do enjoy just riding around on the Fuse.

I will admit I haven't seen any out in the wild, i've seen some full fat bikes but very few semi skimmed. Maybe its too early to tell but scott, specialized and trek still seem pretty keen on the wheel size, you know its a winner when Giant start making one they haven't as yet that I'm aware of.

That's ones one of mboys quotes from previous threads not mine...
Try actually reading the thread.

Of course. Silly me, I forgot my mind-reader cap again. 🙄

you know its a winner when Giant start making one they haven't as yet that I'm aware of.

https://www.giant-bicycles.com/global/showcase/xtc-advanced-plus

Its a new 2017 so they are 2 years behind? that Giant is a good looking bike, pity looks like no UK version online.

For the trails I ride mostly

😆
Like I said the + Rekon has been a great tyre for a couple of week long trips to propper mountains and various uplifts around the UK.
Though I am looking forwards to trying out the DHF on the front as I really like that tyre in 2.5 29 form.

I forgot my mind-reader cap

I'm using purgatory grid 3.0s on my bike, they seem to be pretty decent but I do still want to try out some 2.6s as I think they might suit me better. I run the front pretty soft at ~10 psi and the rear at ~16 psi and had no squirmy issues or punctures yet, I'm only 65-70kg though. Most of what I ride is rock with not a lot of mud FWIW.
I did demo another bike with ground control 3.0 tyres that weren't grid casing and I managed to get 3 flats on those... In conclusion, I don't imagine they're going to disappear as the tyres do appear to be improving and some big names (e.g. specialized) do seem to be trying to herd us that way but I'm not sold on them just yet.

I've not had an issue with WTB Bridgers, grips like the preverbal to a blanket. Weight might be an issue for some but I'm near 14 stone and my other bike has an Alfine....so I'm not fussed.... I'm yet to go tubeless as I don't think I get to ride ofter enough at the moment, maybe in 2017....

Years ago Nokian and Intense did massive tyres;2.6/2.8/3.0 it was ****

And the relevance of that is?

Years ago Rock Shox did forks with the structural integrity of a cotton bud and pretty much no damping. Guess current Rock Shox must be crap too.

Mtb Tyres pretty much a tyre tbh.

Plus at that time they had the Pike. Hardly crap back then.

hora, we've done this conversational point before too.
the gazzalodi weighs ~ 1600g.
bonty's chupacabra is ~ 800g.

go and read some reviews of the nokian on mtbr. the guys all rave about what a monster it is, eating everything in it's path, but they also wail about the weight.

wonder what would happen if someone made a tyre that was the same size but half the weight... 😉
come on. about time you bought a new bike. 😀

Slightly OT, but very important (to me):

Can ALL 27.5+ bikes take 29 wheels?

I ask because I am very interested in a 27.5+, but its description says nothing about interchangeability; some of the 29ers, however, are quite explicit about also being able to accommodate 27.5+.

[If I don't get an answer here, I'll start a new thread.]

[quote=SaxonRider ]Slightly OT, but very important (to me):
Can ALL 27.5+ bikes take 29 wheels?
I ask because I am very interested in a 27.5+, but its description says nothing about interchangeability; some of the 29ers, however, are quite explicit about also being able to accommodate 27.5+.
[If I don't get an answer here, I'll start a new thread.]
I'd check on each individual bike. It'll depend (a bit) on what size of 29er tyre you opt for. A 2.1? Most likely. A 2.4? Maybe not. The issue will be the seat tube/front mech clearance (plus it'll add a wee bit to BB height).

Can ALL 27.5+ bikes take 29 wheels?

It would probably be worth getting one with an adjustable bb too. Mine takes a 45mm 29er rim with a 2.3 wtb breakout tyre easily in the back (all I had to test it) it's a pinnacle ramin plus BTW

FWIW I've not found the changed BB height to be an issue, but that's running a full 3" B+ tyre or a 2.1 29er on the rear.