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... I'd thought, being level headed and all, I'd know what to do with most outdoors incidents tbh. But this evening in -4 icy conditions I came across a youngster (well half my age so not so young) on their own who asked for help with a puncture.
Once that was sorted we were chatting and it was obvious that the cold and ice / snow were terrifiying them. So we agreed to a social amble back to reality and got chatting.
Thing was every 30 seconds they crashed, face planted, otb, hit a tree..... Anyway it was a bit icy, but no matter how slow we went they were as tense as a bowstring. Every turn on the bars was 90 degrees one way or the other. Maybe 15 crashes later we were back to base.
Every corner, slope, camber. you could just see the shoulders rising, the fists clencing... smack! Ouch! We got back just before dark.
So basically - what can you do with someone that's so wound up by a circumstance, even somewhere they're used to riding, something they're used to doing, what can you do / say to get them back to themselves?
leave them to die
Get them warmed up and get some food in them.
I've noticed that I when I start to run low on energy my concentration/judgement slips and I'm more prone to stupid errors.
Hypothermia? maybe
Wot Al said...natural selection at work.They'll never learn otherwise.
how far from base were you?
Maybe would have been better to walk?
Oh - yes - and dang - never thought of the energy thing. That's bad. Really bad.
I always carry a spare set of stabilisers for this very thing.......
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30 mins normally - but icey as * so probably an hour. Walking 2-3 hours.
#Edit - Im curious about the mental side of this though - someone well used to being out and about on a bike gets physhed and just kindof mentally shuts down.
cynic-al - Member
leave them to die
always got to use the pirate's code in this situation
Maybe would have been better to walk?
We did walk some of the steeper bits- to me that was scarier than on the bike.
You were going so slow the poor chap was having to trackstand every 5 seconds? Maybe he thought the stranger he'd just got help from was looking for a different sort of favour in return? Or a kidney...
[quote=legend ]cynic-al - Member
leave them to die
always got to use the pirate's code in this situation
Not so much a code - more what you'd call "guidelines"....
Nice to see sarcasm on the first reply.
People can't be perfect.
If the person has extra layers in the bag then get them on, if you have food or they do then get them to eat it.
Before getting on the bike get the body warm by either jogging on the spot and then swinging your arms to getthe body heat back.
Even motivation can help.
Sounds like you did the right thing: looked after them.
Be calm and reassuring, take control in a calm way and get them home safe. Not a lot more you can do...
[quote=couldashouldawoulda ]
#Edit - Im curious about the mental side of this though - someone well used to being out and about on a bike gets physhed and just kindof mentally shuts down.
Yep. Seen it, but usually when out walking/climbing. You get low then loose judgement and co-ordination. Food usually works (at least for a while).
sounds like a crap rider. I'm no cycling god but y'know, sounds like a dick shouldn't be let out of the house.
You should have stopped to keep warm, next time look for a cave.
cynic-al - Memberleave them to die
If they are male, yes.
Female.................. 😳
I dont think they were cold. Certainly never mentioned it and had all the right gear.
But energy sounds likely.
So what's the tipping point for someone used to doing A/B/C and can suddenly mentally shut down / panic?
Oh - and thanks brooess - there's not much else you would do really. Someone needs a hand etc.
[i]sounds like a crap rider. I'm no cycling god but y'know, sounds like a dick shouldn't be let out of the house.[/i]
Another Yawn just for you.
Folk go weird in all sorts of ways when they're cold. Only thing I'd have done differently would probably be to introduce humour into the situation. Turn it into a who can have the daftest crash kind of thing. Introduces a bit of control into the crashes, and warms them up by stimulating their muscles around their core.
Where was this?
sounds like a crap rider.
Oh dear.
But even if that were true - what makes someone shutdown when they "panic"?
Remember when you first started riding? If you were anything like me, you froze/went stiff at the first sign of anything techy or pulled on your brakes inappropriately. Going slow over rocks and roots is guaranteed to end in spills. Once you've had one fall and the brain can't get the body to relax it'll keep happening. Cold and lack of energy hits your cognitive ability so you'll start to see "problems" that you'd usually ignire.
glupton - the humour thing sounds good! Somewhere near you btw!
druidh - I think you may be right, arms stiff - pushing danger away etc. So someone doesnt do that normally - does the cold make this worse?
ok, that was a bit much. but come on, people should know what they are doing. Messing about on a bike in the middle of nowhere in freezing conditions isn't a joke. There has to be some accountability!
The symptoms of hypothermia can vary depending on whether it is mild, moderate or severe. The severity of hypothermia is determined by how low your body temperature has become.
Mild hypothermia
The early symptoms of hypothermia are often recognised by a parent or carer. This is because hypothermia can cause confusion, poor judgement and a change in behaviour which means the affected may not realise that they have it.
If someone has mild hypothermia (generally with a body temperature of 32-35?C), the symptoms aren't always obvious but they can include:
constant shivering
tiredness
low energy
cold or pale skin
fast breathing (hyperventilation)
Moderate hypothermia
Moderate cases of hypothermia (generally with a body temperature of 28-32?C) can include symptoms such as:
violent, uncontrollable shivering (although shivering can stop completely at lower temperatures as the body is unable to generate heat)
being unable to think or pay attention
confusion (some people don't realise they're affected)
loss of judgement and reasoning (someone with hypothermia may decide to remove clothing despite being very cold)
difficulty moving around
loss of co-ordination
drowsiness
slurred speech
slow, shallow breathing (hypoventilation)
Severe hypothermia
The symptoms of severe hypothermia (a body temperature of below 28?C) can include:
unconsciousness (comatose)
shallow or no breathing
weak, irregular or no pulse
dilated pupils
The individual may in fact appear to be dead. However, under these circumstances the individual must be taken to hospital in order for it to be decided whether they have died, or are in a state of severe hypothermia. If this is the case, advanced medical intervention may still be able to resuscitate them.
ok, that was a bit much. but come on, people should know what they are doing. Messing about on a bike in the middle of nowhere in freezing conditions isn't a joke. There has to be some accountability!
Hmmm...
Thats a slippery slope. Charging for mountan rescue, no free A & E wif you were jumping
[quote=couldashouldawoulda ]druidh - I think you may be right, arms stiff - pushing danger away etc. So someone doesnt do that normally - does the cold make this worse?
Lots of mountain accidents happen when something fairly innocuous goes wrong but a bad decision will be made because brain function is being affected by cold, hunger and tiredness. Bad decision follows bad decision....
No worries kevevs - but my point is that this was someone who rides all the time, knew whats up, but for some reason - mentally shut down. Not some numptie on a bso. They had the good sense to ask for help tbf - but the mental calculations somehow shut down. That really is what my Q is about.
Might he have got mild concussion from a crash before you got there? Had that skiing where a mate who previously seemed fine at skiing was crashing every 30 seconds and asking where his gloves were...
Thanks glupton.
There was no shivering, no mention of cold fingers/ feet, but the other moderate symptoms may kind of add up.
Duuno if its just a simpler thing of kind of just giving up / tagging along with someone to do the thinking but loosing all coordination.
If you are interested in how stuff "goes wrong", I can recommend [i]The Black Cloud[/i] by IDS Thomson. Happy to let you borrow my copy.
it does sound like hypothermia or something. anyway, the guy is ok so it's a good result 😀
Well played OP for helping them.
I imagine he was very grateful, I'm sure most of us on here have for whatever reason had one of those moments where you can begin to feel panic rising slightly within you, and it's a pretty unpleasant feeling.
All that matters is that the situation was resolved to a healthy conclusion. Even with the "correct" gear on you can get pretty cold pretty quickly if you're moving slowly.
druidh- thanks: I might borrow that off you.
I guess I'm just kind of freaked that while we all try to help each other I was only slightly taken aback by how a seemingly capable outdoors person can just mentally freeze /choke in the face of something not too serious.
Sounds like confidence was blown and rational thinking had been clouded in fear/dread/doubt about the ice and conditions.
I would try to start simple and build confidence gradually from the ground up, set small goals and achieve them, positive reinforcement and a gentle serving of humour. General guidance and advice for the conditions, which I'm sure you did, can give them something to focus on in a constructive sense rather than just going round in fear cycles in their head.
Perhaps with the conditions as they were and light levels fading, energy getting ever lower then the best approach was keeping moving forward gradually. Your premium goal here was to get the person out of the elements and to the destination. If you can't eliminate the cause of the fear from the situation then it can be hard to get the mind to focus on overcoming it. Back to basics and reprogramming the mind to start doing some constructive thinking would be my answer to your q.
Have any of you been caught in such a situation, miles from home, unable to keep a grip on reality; as the day slips into all enveloping sub-zero darkness....
Me neither.
Must be horrible.
Pat on the back to the OP. Good on you for helping the chap out.
I remember having a flat once, miles out, light fading, cold setting in. I had to sit tight for a while, couldnt focus. Once I'd gained some control I could focus again & sort myself out. I can recall thinking daft stuff like ditching the bike etc.
so nothing has ever gone wrong on one of your rides? where its taken longer, been tougher (distance/steepness or technical/terrain), worse weather, a mechanical failure, a forgotten bit of kit, the planned cafe stop being closed. Start putting a couple of those things together and you can easily find yourself cold and tired at the side of the trail.but come on, people should know what they are doing. Messing about on a bike in the middle of nowhere in freezing conditions isn't a joke. There has to be some accountability!
Once you're in that position its difficult to concentrate, and if you start to loose your flow and confidence every obstacle becomes much harder than it would be if you are fresh, fed, fit and warm. Then someone comes along who seems to be offering to help get you home with a 'slow' ride - but perhaps his slow is still faster than you can manage in your current state and so you come off a lot.
Most of the silly crashes me / mates have had on long rides have been in the last 20% of the distance, precisely for these reasons. Tired, concentration going, energy gone, in a rush to get back etc... And once you have one silly off, another is often not far behind. The best course of action is to get off push for 5 mins, whilst munching some food and having a drink and a chat to recompose yourself; then when ready the 'struggler' goes first to set the pace. In tricky bits sometimes the other person is better going first but only if the follower is able to follow your line / position / tips.
Oh, and one other thing to check when someone keeps crashing at dusk - he wasn't wearing sun glasses was he? A mate of mine had 3 spectactular crashes in a row in the woods at dusk before we realised he still had his glasses on and was basically riding in the dark with no lights!
[quote=couldashouldawoulda ]druidh- thanks: I might borrow that off you.
Drop me an email if you're interested.
I've had hypothermia before where everything has gone horribly wrong. It isnt an upleasant experience. Thankfully I had good mates with me who knew exactly what they were doing.
you're right Poly, things can so easily go tits up. But isn't it importannt to be well prepared? Things can easily go wrong. It sounds like it's a good job couldawouldashoulda was there.
Reckon you did the right thing op. I think most people at a trail centre bring tools they need to do trail side repairs, but I wonder how many bring a really good first aid kit and know how to use it
Yep I always ride with Space blanket(tinfoily stuff) hand warmers and general bandages etc.
Because you never know when it might be you, or as the OP found,someone else!
Thumbs up to couldashouldawoulda 😀
Then someone comes along who seems to be offering to help get you home with a 'slow' ride - but perhaps his slow is still faster than you can manage in your current state and so you come off a lot.
That's lots of good points but I staid well behind, no rush etc.
Overall I'm going to add up poly's & druid's point about one crash leads to the "fear" multiplied by the cold & lack of energy.
Oh and kevevs, in the nicest way possible, my question wasnt about being prepared.
I and the other party had all the gear, my question is about the head game. For some reason an expeirenced outdoors person shut down. All the gear in the world doesnt help with that.
let more air out their tyres 😉
Just about to post the same supafly.
It's an interesting one isn't it? Just hope I don't get into that state, and if I do there's someone who knows how to handle it.
Good for you.
But you're still not helping! 😉
what would you like me to say? bloke out on bike in freezing conditions, you helped him out. well done. That's great. But from what you've said and how I read it. It just sounds like the guy should've stayed at home.
I'd have to agree with the chap at the bottom of page one who suggested a mild concussion. Seen just such behaviour from skiers and cyclists who've banged their bonces hard. Just for the record, my autocorrect tried to write, "banged their nonces". :-0
Some people just get frightened when they're away from home or car and it's getting dark. If they are cold and hungry it happens quicker. If they are small in size they will have less in reserve and less bulk means even more vulnerable to cold.
I had a fall coming down icy snow in Glencoe once, I self-arrested but skinned my knuckles badly and was shocked. The rest of the party had naffed off thinking I was OK. Walking back down I was un-coordinated and clumsy and I fell several times again, once in a very dangerous place where I nearly went off the path and down frozen snow into a burn in a deep ravine. I just remember being cold, hungry, tired and completely disorientated.
(Following another incident that week on the Aonach Eagach where the rest of them naffed off and left me with a frightened, inexperienced girl with bendy boots and no head torch to find our way down in the dark and the snow I realised they were a shite climbing club and didn't go with them again.)
Concussion, but also a good chance of low blood sugar. I work with a few diabetics and low blood sugar sends em mental. Tends also to become more agressive/irratable with low bloods. Did the lad seem angry or just nervous?
Have a read of this [url= http://www.grough.co.uk/magazine/2012/11/22/hypothermia-can-kill-how-to-spot-it-treat-it-and-prevent-it ]article on hypothermia[/url] . Exercise delays the onset of the early signs while the core is cooling dangerously. When you stop it gets bad really quickly.
Well done OP on helping someone out.
I was out for a night ride last week. It was a bit icy and I didn't feel particularly confident as I'm still sore from a fall a few weeks back, but was keeping fairly relaxed and letting the bike ride over the skippy bits. Then I hit a patch like glass and went down hard on my right hip. It was surprising how much harder it was to keep it smooth and upright after the fall. Actually it would probably have been even worse if anybody else had been there. It's bad enough mincing down a trail without being watched. As it was I dropped the saddle and rode with both feet down until I got to a bit that I could convince myself wasn't so bad.
OP: nice one for helping them out.
Doesn't matter what their experience level was, or their preparations were like, they needed some assisting, so well done.
This thread has reminded me that I needed to get a couple of space blankets for the bike rucksack, at £1 a throw on ebay, there's no reason to not carry them.
You did the right thing. End of.
Space blankets are rubbish, they tear easily and provide minimal weather protection. Find yourself a lightweight survival bag or, if you're prepared to compromise and carry extra weight, a Blizzard bag or jacket.
Fwiw, I carry an[url= http://www.ultralightoutdoorgear.co.uk/amk_heatsheets_emergency_bivvy_sleeping_bag.html ] Adventure Medical Kit SOL[/url] ultra-lightweight survival bag - tiny, light at around 100g and pretty much untearable and because it's a bag, it will actually shelter you with some degree of effectiveness.
I also, in winter conditions, carry a lightweight PrimaLoft-filled jacket, a [url= http://rab.uk.com/products/mens-clothing/synthetic-fill/xenon-jacket.html ]Rab Xenon[/url], and a woolly hat because, frankly, if you crash out on your own in sub-zero conditions and rely on a flimsy space blanket and your normal riding gear to keep you alive, you're in for a very unpleasant surprise.
It's not cheap kit, but that's stuff that works for you and overall it weighs around 400g or so, about a pound in your British money, and takes up surprisingly little space. I ride a fair bit on my own, at night, in winter, and it might give me a fighting chance of surviving a night out if needed, albeit a very uncomfortable one.
I've also occasionally ridden in the Xenon with temperatures at minus 10? or less as the sun went down.
Anyway, I'm not saying I'm definitely right, but at a very basic level, I'd always go for some sort of survival bag rather than a blanket. Space blankets have a bad reputation for shredding in wind and the blanket format gives you minimal protection, why do you think they're so cheap? It always baffled me that the organisers of the Kielder 100 insisted in competitors carrying a near useless space blanket as a condition of participation. Why not insist, as the Three Peaks people do, that you carry a survival bag that might actually be useful to you.
Oh, and more generally people get disorientated and aren't necessarily as experienced or capable as they might appear. There seem to be quite a few mountain bikers out there who don't have a general outdoorsy sort of background, so won't necessarily have the experience or resilience to cope with nasty conditions.
I don't think its that uncommon. 2 winters ago I was out in really bad conditions, sheet ice every where, really hard to stay upright.
I had a couple of crashes and after that I was a complete state, tense wobbly and on the verge of crashing and falling pretty much the whole ride. It was not a nice experience, and this was on a bright morning and I wasn't riding alone.
Bad condtions, combined with fading light plus lack of confidence and its pretty easy to lose your head.
Well don to the OP for helping out
It always baffled me that the organisers of the Kielder 100 insisted in competitors carrying a near useless space blanket as a condition of participation. Why not insist, as the Three Peaks people do, that you carry a survival bag that might actually be useful to you.
Isn't it because with survival bags etc, people are tempted to get in them and lie down and hope for people to get them, whereas with a space blanket, you're more likely to bung it over your shoulders and try to walk out, which is usually the best option?
Ages back when I last did survival stuff, we were told that if we carried orange survival bags to cut a couple of foot holes in the bottom so you could wear it and walk, as it was almost always better to attempt a walk out than to stop and get cold. That was also why they said don't take a fancy bivvy bag as your survival bag - unless you're in conditions where stopping is sensible (extreme snow conditions, up big mountains etc.), having a cheap orange bag that you can cut foot holes in without worrying about the cost makes you more likely to keep moving and get out safely, whereas cutting up your £100 bivvy bag so you can walk in it is more of a thing to do.
Space blankets have a bad reputation for shredding in wind and the blanket format gives you minimal protection,
yep. you can get hoody shape ones which i reckon might be a bit better.
joemarshall - MemberIt always baffled me that the organisers of the Kielder 100 insisted in competitors carrying a near useless space blanket as a condition of participation. Why not insist, as the Three Peaks people do, that you carry a survival bag that might actually be useful to you.
Isn't it because with survival bags etc, people are tempted to get in them and lie down and hope for people to get them, whereas with a space blanket, you're more likely to bung it over your shoulders and try to walk out, which is usually the best option?
Ages back when I last did survival stuff, we were told that if we carried orange survival bags to cut a couple of foot holes in the bottom so you could wear it and walk, as it was almost always better to attempt a walk out than to stop and get cold. That was also why they said don't take a fancy bivvy bag as your survival bag - unless you're in conditions where stopping is sensible (extreme snow conditions, up big mountains etc.), having a cheap orange bag that you can cut foot holes in without worrying about the cost makes you more likely to keep moving and get out safely, whereas cutting up your £100 bivvy bag so you can walk in it is more of a thing to do.
I figure on a bike that if I'm capable of moving I won't be using a survival bag, that's why I have a shell, a hat, spare insulation. My choice is to carry something lightweight that might keep me alive if I can't move.
The lightweight emergency bag I carry isn't a £100 bivvy, it's a mummy-shaped, super light, but really tough plasticised semi-metallic thing.
Incidentally, a fair proportion of people who die from exposure die because they keep moving instead of hunkering down and using the emergency equipment they have with them. Every situation's different, but I can't see any reason to carry a flimsy space blanket that's going to provide very little benefit either stopped or on the move, let alone carry one so I have no option but to keep moving. That, without being stupid about it, is a bit daft, no?
If you want a wearable emergency thing, have a look at the [url= http://www.blizzardsurvival.com/product.php/101/blizzard-survival-jacket ]Blizzard Survival Jacket[/url] which might actually work and provides insulation too. Much better solution that cutting leg holes in a mahoosive orange placcy bag.
Best group option is a communal Blokka bag or similar survival shelter so you can pool warmth.
But anyway, it's all about the best option for the specific scenario. One of the big problems with these situations is that people who are lost and scared and going hypothermic are also often disorientated and bad at making rational decisions. Been there, done that, no nice.
Am I alone in carrying a firelighter and a box of matches? Most of my rides are on forestry commission land and if I have to spend a night out there I want to be able to make a fire.
The OP got things nearly right, but still wasn't great.
Its quite a common reaction for people who are new at skill/sport etc. Obviously ther person must have been fairly new at mountain biking and the first fall must have scared them, then the effect of cold weather, getting dark just compounds things. Before you know it they are a nervous wreck, and incapable of doing pretty much anything.
It was right to try and get them back on the bike to start with, but the wrong thing after they started falling off again/had no control. Should have walked/jogged out with the bike or leaving it behind.
Quite a common thing when teaching people to ski. The last thing to do was to make them get up and do it again if you could see they were that far gone.
Am I alone in carrying a firelighter and a box of matches?
No, I carry soome nice dry trees with me too 🙂
I've suffered from Moderate hypothermia and the best thing you can do is get them £%CKing moving off the hill.
I know all I wanted to do was rest and sit down my speech was slurred and as I look back now I was in the poo if I had been on my own I may not have made it. If you notice slurred speech ever the person your speaking to is in serious trouble and so help them out!
Well done OP 🙂
Full marks to the OP for helping out and seeing them off the hill!
Well done CWS.
You say that they were experienced but that they were half your age, you're not THAT old! 🙂
They may well have lots of experience in nice warm good conditions but you only gain real experience when the shit hits the fan and you realise that the outcome might not be rosey.
Hopefully they learnt a lesson and fare better next time.....there's always a next time 😆
I've suffered from Moderate hypothermia and the best thing you can do is get them £%CKing moving off the hill.
Thing is, that's not always true. It's about making a judgment on the situation because in some conditions that would kill them.
Sometimes, if you do have an emergency shelter, you're better off stopping, hunkering down, sharing body heat, food etc and calling mountain rescue. Sometimes it makes sense to get them off the hills, sometimes it doesn't.
But an awful lot of mountain bikers don't carry the kit that would give them the option of stopping, so there's no real choice.
That's my take anyway.
Glad to see some debate on the keep moving front. Movement doesn't necessarliy make you warmer.
I think the keep moving mentatlity leads to problems. Almost everyon picked up buy Mountain Rescue with Hypothermia has additional clothing with them that they haven't put on
It seems common for mountain bikers to not being carrying enough warm kit. I've haf to stop and lend clothes to an imobilised mountain biker, on quite a pleasant day as well.
CWS I think you did a great job. No matter how experienced or well prepared sometimes things don't go according to plan. The last thing any of us would want is to ignore someone in distress and then read the following day of a bad outcome and then wrestle with our conscience thinking what we could have done.
Wow - thanks for the comments guys - and the flattery Paul!
I've learned a bit from this thread!
Mainly:
1- The shutdown could happen me / my missus / anyone we're with some day.
2- After the first couple of crashes we should really have walked / jogged out. At least until they refocused.
3- No matter how bad things get - in my head I will never even think about asking for help / rescue or waiting for it. I want home, end of. I must warn my missus.
4- Energy boost and more layers.
Well done couldashouldawoulda both helping somebody out and then seeking to understand what you might have done differently is all good.
I did an avalanche awareness course when out in Canada a few years ago. Our intention was to do some back country hiking so we thought it was a good idea. The instructor had a saying, "If you're not prepared to be out all night, you're not prepared". Used to poke fun at it, I have to say now though, it makes a lot of sense. One of the mates I did the course with has his own saying, "what's the first rule of safety? Safety first". He lives by these two rules as some sort of code.
Seems to have worked for him - ones to add to your list?
Well done CSW, without your help that might have ended badly. FWIW, it sounds a lot like hypothermia, maybe mixed with a concussion. Also shock does very odd things to people. Confusion, inability to do what they can do normally.
I'm fairly well experienced in lifesaving and life support. I'm not sure I would have done anything different. Maybe walked out over the worst obstacles, get some sugary energy in them, extra layers of clothes.
I carry a couple of the cheapo emergency blankets. Best bet if you are moving is to stuff them inside clothing. Your free to move then. Cheap and simple.