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How do you buy a day license? I have bronze so can race with no points right? (As if 😉 )
you pay on the day
Perfect thanks. Excited but nervous. Gonna be an eye opener I think.
Where are you racing @crosshair
Thanks @Tired, I was going to message a couple of clubs this week to see if I can join their beginner rides out over the next couple of weeks. I'm hopefully going to head over to Hillingdon this Saturday to watch too!
Hillingdon.
As I understand it , from the fast boys at my road club , its as much about position in the pack,watching the breaks , power conservation ( winding your neck in )and avoiding trouble as it is w/kg.
Can you ride in a fast paced group at 18 - 20 mph , and do a through and off safely ?
That would be a sensible start point .
I read up on racing lots and lots before having a go and I hadn't joined a club much before my first race either. You "just" need to remember not to overlap wheels, don't weave, hold your line in corners and, similarly, shout out at anyone riding dangerously or not holding their line etc. You'll be lucky if anyone does through and off in a 4th cat road race [whether they have done it on a club run or not, who knows?!] 🙄
No rush to start scoring points, that will happen soon enough but for now just sit in and watch the guys who know what they're doing, you'll soon get it.
Be smooth and calm.
Don't be the tit who tries to out-brake everyone into every corner.
crosshair -
Hillingdon.
Without sounding stalkery add me on strava - I'll try keep an eye out for you.
singletrackmind -
As I understand it , from the fast boys at my road club , its as much about position in the pack,watching the breaks , power conservation ( winding your neck in )and avoiding trouble as it is w/kg.
Can you ride in a fast paced group at 18 - 20 mph , and do a through and off safely ?
That would be a sensible start point .
I've never ridden in a fast paced group bar the Eisberg cycle a few pages back and regents park (which can get very busy) so I've never done the through and off - but I can do 52 miles solo @19-20mph (cringe sorry!) and get the principle of it. But yes experience like that would help.
mtbtomo
I read up on racing lots and lots before having a go and I hadn't joined a club much before my first race either. You "just" need to remember not to overlap wheels, don't weave, hold your line in corners and, similarly, shout out at anyone riding dangerously or not holding their line etc. You'll be lucky if anyone does through and off in a 4th cat road race [whether they have done it on a club run or not, who knows?!]
Haze
No rush to start scoring points, that will happen soon enough but for now just sit in and watch the guys who know what they're doing, you'll soon get it.Be smooth and calm.
Don't be the tit who tries to out-brake everyone into every corner.
Cheers for the advice guys!
Yeah pretty sure you won't be doing any through and off in your first 4th, unless you accidentally find yourself in a break then you'll learn quick enough!
Get yourself on some reliability rides over winter, usually Feb/March time. Much more likely to come across some co-operative riding with some good riders.
But for now no harm in dipping your toe in a few crits.
Added Nathb
Added you too crosshair.
Took out silver membership and applied for my racing licence too this morning, which is pending.
Exciting times. 😆
nathb - MemberAdded you too crosshair.
Took out silver membership and applied for my racing licence too this morning, which is pending.
Exciting times.
I'm going to be spectating at Hillingdon and cheering on Crosshair if you make it off Nath.
I've never ridden in a fast paced group bar the Eisberg cycle a few pages back and regents park (which can get very busy) so I've never done the through and off - but I can do 52 miles solo @19-20mph (cringe sorry!) and get the principle of it. But yes experience like that would help.
If that's the case, your first objective should be just to sit in the group/hold a wheel safely. Watching a race to get an idea of the dynamics before diving in would not be a bad idea. At least you are aware of your group riding limitations, which is more than can be said for some people in 4th cat races! Until you are comfortable with it, don't get involved in the finish, just roll out the back. 4th cat sprints can be (often are) chaos.
Forget about through and off/any other kind of structured group riding - racing is completely different*
Good luck, have fun, don't worry about trying to score any points for the time being!
*it can happen - either if you're up the road in a break with a group who know how to work together, or say if a couple of teams get organised and decide to use their numbers on the front of the peleton to bring a break back. But you aint going to see much of that sort of thing in a 4th cat crit!
Good racecraft and a well practiced sprint more likely to get you points than a lot of watts.
This sums up 4th cat racing really. Bar the odd exceptional talent who has just started out and has the strength to go solo off the front and stay away - but you won't have to deal with them for long, cos they'll be cat3 in a couple of races time....
EDIT: attacking is a lot more fun than sitting in though.
weeksy
I'm going to be spectating at Hillingdon and cheering on Crosshair if you make it off Nath.
Yeah I'll be there, aiming to get there for about 1pm.. I'm cycling and terrible at following directions so hopefully I will see the start! 😆
david jey
If that's the case, your first objective should be just to sit in the group/hold a wheel safely. Watching a race to get an idea of the dynamics before diving in would not be a bad idea. At least you are aware of your group riding limitations, which is more than can be said for some people in 4th cat races! Until you are comfortable with it, don't get involved in the finish, just roll out the back. 4th cat sprints can be (often are) chaos.Forget about through and off/any other kind of structured group riding - racing is completely different*
Good luck, have fun, don't worry about trying to score any points for the time being!
*it can happen - either if you're up the road in a break with a group who know how to work together, or say if a couple of teams get organised and decide to use their numbers on the front of the peleton to bring a break back. But you aint going to see much of that sort of thing in a 4th cat crit!
Yeah I know now that on paper I potentially have the power to finish somewhere near the front, but I'm completely happy aiming for mid pack in my first few/year if it means not coming a cropper! Cheers for the advice.
Would be a dream if I turned up and could just mind my own business at the front though, but that isn't going to happen anytime soon! 😆
On a side note I need to stop eating junk food, damn waitrose with their chocolate torsades, and lose a couple of KG to say 68kg. 😕
Guys, I may have missed this information somewhere but is there any chance of a sighting lap at Hillingdon on Saturday morning? I can get there nice and early if so.
crosshair
Guys, I may have missed this information somewhere but is there any chance of a sighting lap at Hillingdon on Saturday morning? I can get there nice and early if so.
I've just looked at the calendar, someone has it booked until 12:30. The imperial series starts at 12:30, but the race isn't due to start until 13:10 so there must be time?
I don't know how long the lap is but every crit I've ever done, you get at least 10 minutes rolling round/warming up on the circuit. Not just a blind start from the gun.
Don't be the last one to roll up on the line, or you'll be on the back foot from the start. There's no shame in lingering near the line until the comissaire stops people rolling round. Then you can get a good start....or at least time to miss clipping in and not be fighting off the back straight away trying to attach foot to pedal 🙂
The few I've done they usually have an area in the infield you can roll around before the start. And they've not been full gas from the line so start position not critical.
Don't be the last one to roll up on the line, or you'll be on the back foot from the start.
I wouldn't worry about this TBH*. Crits often start off very slow and cagey - more so in cat 4s where everybody just waits for the sprint and breaks are less likely to stick. Make an effort to move up early on while its slow tho and don't linger at the back in general - if you're near the front it's easier to respond to accelerations.
*unless you're an idiot like me who likes to attack from the gun. In which case wear MTB SPDs to ensure a smooth clip-in** and attack the start like it's a cyclocross race
**i've never actually done this
Make an effort to move up early on while its slow tho and don't linger at the back in general
Re this, you do quickly realise that the old saying that "if you're not going forwards you're going backwards" is very true. Easy to find yourself at the back of the pack very quickly. Something to keep in mind.
Good tips. 🙂
The hillingdon races are 25 laps (23.5 miles) aren't they? Does someone do a lap counter?
Looking forward to watching tomorrow. 8)
Races are time-based. I think the 4th cat race will be 40 or 45 minutes plus 5 laps. That equates to about 25 laps. Average pace is typically 2:00 (fast) to 2:20 (modest) per lap. You will have time to warm up on the circuit. It's not really a crit because there are no sharp corners, you can actually pedal the entire circuit (it was designed as such). Brian's Bends is the only slightly technical left- then right-hander. You can take that at full gas.
Say Hi. I'll be in my blue TCC Twickenham kit with a black and yellow helmet, white Giant Propel and with Teen 2 in tag as a course marshal.
Will do.
I'm hoping to be on [url= 
]THIS[/url], if I can figure out the bearings in time, if not then [url= 
]THIS[/url] with a Black/white kask helmet (black cap underneath), thick gloves and probably looking lost! 😆
Crits often start off very slow and cagey
I must come and race down south sometime in that case 😉
Maybe they haven't felt like a slow start cos I've been grappling to get clipped in....
I'm used to Zwift race starts at the moment so I should be leading for the first 50y 😉 😀
I think I'm a little bit early 😀
Haha a bit!
Setting off shortly, hopefully the twicks traffic isn't too bad!
Good luck all!
I'm here now, some really nice bikes!!
Ouch! that was tough. I got lapped 4 times and pulled off when they had 2 to go. I got a new FTP so not all bad I suppose!
Great atmosphere though and some great blokes. I did my best to keep out of the way but the bunch were polite, courteous and vocal when passing and it never felt at all sketchy.
I reckon I might get light enough to hang with the bunch by this time 2017 😀
@crosshair what kit/bike were you out on? Good show!
I've got some videos of you all flying by, I was the guy sat on one of the benches just passed the start line with my bike and a bright neck thingy on lol
I was in my shiny new TFC Kit from Zwift. Bright yellow with short sleeves and bib shorts riding a tasty Triban 5 with MTB SPD's 🙂
Much like my first crit, it looks like you used up a lot of your effort staying out of trouble 🙂 Worth checking out the data from those with a PM who finished in the bunch, generally much less effort expended.
I reckon I might get light enough to hang with the bunch by this time 2017
With that sort of effort and a bit of experience you should have no trouble. Less weight wouldn't make much difference.
So you signed up for round 2? 🙂
Sadly, winter Saturdays off are almost unheard of. I need to carefully check the dates.
I actually loved it! I found the people friendlier than say the XCRampage crowd and certainly felt less intimidated than at CX.
Sorry to the kind guys who worked with me for a few laps- I would have taken more pulls if I wasn't so knackered and dejected 😀
Yes, definitely inefficient but I sat in quite well for the first lap. Down the start finish straight, I remember them stringing out in front and of course, I was rolling into the next corner whilst the front runners were half way up the hill and then PING, that was that!
Ah I remember seeing a guy on a silver/grey Triban chapeau!
Are you doing it next weekend?
Start:
Slow mo finish (I'd turn the volume off/down): 😆
Rode the 4th cat at the back wearing my YGA#. Shouted a bit, coached a bit, encouraged a bit, helped a few riders get back into the bunch. Overall, it was a reasonable race. Pace was not too high. A lot of bunching into the wind past the clubhouse, brakes were applied, but largely the riding was of a good standard. The rider who attacked stayed away for 10 points. A good move given the windy conditions.
Then I raced the E123 race (I'm yellow 48). I've had a kidney infection and not ridden for two weeks, so this was always a training race. Team mate attacked on lap 1 so I blocked for a lap or so, then dropped back to midpack and stayed there. Not much for the sprint and it didn't matter as riders were on the grass on that last lap. Think I was 33rd , middle tritile. Happy with that. Teen2 is happy because he earned £30 as a marshal.
Well done all. Say hi next week.
#yellow gilet of authority
Yeah the guy who won was on his own for at least the last 5 laps or so? Took me a lap or two to realise he was leading as he suddenly had such a large gap.
@tired did you have something dangling of your helmet? or was that someone else? If it was you I think I passed you near the club house but you were deep in conversation with someone and I was shivering and dying to get back on the bike to warm up!
If my licence shows up next week then I'll book in for the Saturday, unfortunately I'm not around the following Saturday.
The dangles are my clubmate rufus, they are to remember his wife who died recently taking that selfie on her bike. I was always at the back as I was the rolling marshall/coach/commissaire.
Obviously I didn't contest or attack, but the race needed a few more attacks to be honest.
If have paid online a printout of the BC page is all that is required.
I saw you rock up at the start TiRed 🙂 I started on row 2 on the inside and slowly worked my way backwards from there 😀
@tired the one that states Race Silver Membership? Can't see anywhere where it shows my licence. (sorry)
Ok so without starting a new 'credible cat 4' thread, what can I reasonably do to improve?? Practice group riding is number one I suppose and losing a couple of stone close behind 😀
Considering the two laps when I was cruising around at 17mph wondering whether to quit, I was quite pleased with my power. Best 20mins was 316w and laps one and two were 365w+!! Average for the race was 295 and weighted was 310.
Do more of them.
In the space of about 4 races I went from staying out of trouble but taking a load of wind and riding mostly z3/z4 to comfortably riding in the pack at z1/z2 expending not much effort. You just need to know what's going on and be in the right places at the right times (so not dangling off the back going into a series of slow bends!)
I'm sure TiRed is your man for advice though.
Zwift structured training? Then rest Thurs/Fri.
Now you've got your numbers maybe try and tuck in @300w?
I have no idea though, so looking forward to hearing replies. 😆
😯
How do you get popped off the back putting out a 295w average? Are you leaving too big a gap to rider(s) in front to get a proper tow?
Edit: Wrong time of year for it, but race pace group rides (apr's are good) get you used to riding close to others whilst going hard.
@MrBlobby Yes, you are right.
I enjoyed it immensely too- the surface is lovely and quick!
It just seems crazy that I missed such an obvious point. I was repeating my little 'forward not backwards' mantra for the first lap and actually moving up in places but I guess my positioning was just off enough to wear me out too soon.
Ah, bit harder work to get some shelter then.
I look out for blokes like you cos if i get the wheel its freewheeling time 😀
I seemed to have a constant train behind me around Ride London 😀
As i learned but didnt continue with, dont ride by numbers use your brains. Get tucked in the bunch, work to stay there and conserve energy, then fight at the finish. My best Crit was Iike this after following TiReds advice and i showed at 290w average. My "turbo ftp" was lower.
As for improvement - again as i found out find your power profile (hunter allen test on TR) then work on your weaknesses as well as the overall. Im hitting my max 2016 FTP in winter training which according to prior annual profile is 10% less than Ill end up in March (start XC season). Ive just performed and found some some 850w sprint sessions less than challenging, with sprint as my strength, plus a test race i entered showing strong on short climbs so all is looking good for 2017 MTB XC.
The old "find your strengths work on your weakness" adage seems to work for me. Im bravely entering a pan flat CX race on an mtb deliberatley to push my long interval strength / cardio as i wont have the gears or position to compete against drop bars and better gear ratios.
Hmmm. Can do the 17th if I ditch the SPAM winter challenge on the 18th...... that's actually a tough decision....
I wasn't riding by numbers I can assure you!
I wish I had onboard footage to review though as it would be great to see when I just drifted off too far. I was on the left of the bunch down the start/finish straight the lap I lost touch so probably catching the wind too much.
My powercal average was 228 watts for the back of the pack. 256 for the E123. I did try and encourage backmarkers to move into the gaps. Shelter is everything in racing and there was a strong wind today. Race craft will get you to the finish. I expect a gap just opened and a moments loss off focus and off you go. I got dropped going down a slope earlier this year! Most of surviving is mental. There is nothing wrong with the engine. But racing is full on concentration.
I'm 69 kilos today and 179cm.
Thanks TiRed. It was quite humbling sprinting up the hill after them and knowing they were gone for good 😀
Definitely going to rent a power meter in January, sounds like good information for analysis afterwards.
Do you always go out with the Cat 4s then race @tired?
Did you manage to get some practice laps in first @crosshair? I was running realllly late today, otherwise I was going to try and find you for some laps beforehand.
On a side note my new bike is epic, never had a bike that feels so light - yet doesn't feel like it's flexing at all under full acceleration. Looking forward to trying it up Broomfield tomorrow see if I can get a higher position on strava ha 😳
Yes thanks NathB. Did quite a few laps beforehand. I threw in a few sprint efforts but probably wish I hadn't bothered. I generally just like a quiet 30-40minute spin.
Do not worry about being dropped. Everyone does. Just race more. There really is no substitute, you just need to learn to hold position and follow a wheel. Club riding teaches you that.
We thought it might be good to have someone at the back giving advice, coaching (I'm a level 3 road and TT), generally looking for hazards and providing encouragement! I started racing the winter series as a fourth cat. I've raced Hillingdon at least 60 times in everything from the fourths to vets to E123 thrashfesrs at 29mph.
As for warm ups, normally a good 20 minutes BC world class warm up helps. Starts at Hillingdon are not normally 400 watts or you are gone. I didn't warm up at all!
As long as you are enjoying it, keep it up. I started aged 45 and never thought I'd race.
@TiRed - Do you know when the next prime coaching "race prep" sessions are?
You'll probably be sweeping me up next weekend 😆
Thanks TiRed.
I've booked for rd3 🙂
I think Prime are done until February. Don't worry. If you've done a sportive on a closed road, today race felt like that. I'm not allowed to coach on the wheel, but I'll be there next week too with the YGA offering helpful tips like "look up!" A few laps will help get the feel of the circuit.
Nathb Hopefully you'll enjoy it too and I'll see you on the 17th 😉
My diary is unusually kind this winter and I can potentially make the last five rounds too 🙂
@TiRed - see you there then - I'm all signed up for the 10th 😆
@crosshair - unfortunately I'm up north that weekend. Are you doing the 7th or 14th Jan?
14th but I've just found out that I may have to work that one so I'll do the last four rounds.
Okay so far, if I survive Saturday, it's looking like I can do all 6 next year.
Went out for a spin earlier on the new bike to double check everything is working okay, set a couple of PR's on broomfield but my legs are knackered so I'm going to be on light duties this week.
Starting to overthink things again, such as what to eat beforehand 😳
Sorry to hijack your thread mate, hope you don't mind me joining in 😀
I started to think of things I could have done differently but ultimately it wouldn't have helped me do the one thing I should have done which was get in the goddam draft 😉 😀
I'm a case study in the iron-gut approach to cycling nutrition- I'm fat enough to rarely bonk and rarely suffer ill effects from eating before or during cycling. I bought a box of flapjack bites from Sainsbury's on Saturday morning and ate about 1000 calories of those and a can of Redbull as pre race fuel 😀
For an hour race I don't do anything special, usual breakfast/lunch and maybe a gel a few minutes before the start.
Keep hydrated and ticking over during the week, don't ease off too much but get some decent efforts in by Thursday.
Light spin with a few 30 second sprints on Friday.
Not at all crosshair, any racing advice/questions highly welcome 🙂
Back when I was between 80-90kg I could do 50 miles fasted before the bonk effect. If I took a gel out with me I could do 60 miles. Now at 70kg I wouldn't dream of it, probably do about 20 miles before it would hit me like a wall, it's happened a couple of times after a few laps of Regent's Park after work.
Really @haze, my legs are knackered - was planning on ploughing through Mon/Tues with a couple of Zwift races then just doing some Zone 1/2 training Wed-Fri (I'll introduce some sprints of the back of your comment). This is alongside my regular commute into work 13 miles a day bar Wednesday where I'm at the other end of town and have to use public transport.
Cool, couple of easy days is good particularly at the end of the week...the short sprints will hopefully keep you on your toes.
For an hour race, about 800 Kcal, I don't tend to eat much more than normal, but the rule is two hrs before the race. Saturday I had a couple of croissants for breakfast, soup and bread and two weetabix for lunch, rode the 4ths then a gel for the E123. I could have probably! Done with another gel during the E123, but it was not so bad. I drank 600ml of nuun cola electrolyte drink.
Don't over think it, and do eat at 11 for the 1pm start.
Kryton, do you have a link to this:
hunter allen test on TR
Anyone doing the Evans Cycles London Road Sportive - Sunday 15th January 2017 from Osterley Park?
https://www.evanscycles.com/evans-cycles-london-road-sportive-sunday-15th-january-2017-EV289332
hunter allen test on TR
https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/workouts/23754-h-a-a-c-power-profile-test
Crosshair, looks like Outdoor Traders are going to run their winter crit series at Dalton Barracks near Abingdon again this year. Dates set to be 4th Feb, 11th Feb, 25th Feb & 4th March. Fairly local so may well be up for some of that 🙂
Cool thanks. That sounds spot on 🙂
Just been looking through the calendar for Hillingdon:
[b]Imperial Winter Series[/b]
03/12/2016
10/12/2016
17/12/2016
07/01/2017
14/01/2017
21/01/2017
28/01/2017
04/02/2017
11/02/2017
[b]BC West Thames [/b]
11/04/2017
18/04/2017
25/04/2017
02/05/2017
09/05/2017
16/05/2017
23/05/2017
30/05/2017
06/06/2017
13/06/2017
20/06/2017
27/06/2017
04/07/2017
11/07/2017
18/07/2017
25/07/2017
01/08/2017
08/08/2017
There's 27 races there, really didn't realise how many there was!
BCWT are every Tuesday evening. All spring and summer. There is a 3/4 race not for points, and an E123 race for points but no distinction between E12 and 3. The 3/4 race tends to be faster than the IWS 4th Cat race, with more tactics (which is a good thing). The E123 is typically a tuning session for a few big teams to come and thrash the field. And yes, last summer I double headed a few of them, along with others. One E123 race recorded my fastest ever average circuit race speed of 28.8 mph! It was as brutal as it sounds.
I quite fancy Dalton, as I used to live in Kingston Bagpuize, and it is always nice to go back.
Ah so as a 4th Cat you wouldn't progress to Cat 3 if you won any of those. That's a shame.
Where would a 4th cat go nearby to Hillingdon/West London to build up points?