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I'd never been a fan of E-MTBs. I could see the attraction and the benefits but it wasn't for me. I like to pedal. I like to suffer. I like to work to enjoy the descents.
Anyway, I rebuilt the wheels on a Specialized Turbo Levo for someone. I took it for a ride round my local trails and I did like having a motor! I wasn't too impressed with the rest of the bike - not for £7k anyway. Too heavy, too expensive, too ugly and not great to ride.
I did start looking at the idea of converting one of my own bikes but didn't want to "spoil" any if them so I picked up a nice On One Codeine 29er with some tasty upgrades for £500. Then I got a good deal on AliExpress for a Tongsheng TSDZ2 750w kit for £185. It came from Germany in a week. The Tongsheng is torque sensing so you have to pedal and it multiplies your effort. Unlike the Bafang systems where you can "ghost" pedal as they are cadence sensing. People describe the TSDZ2 as making you feel like you've got "bionic legs".
Having got the bike and all the kit I then did my usual - nothing. I decided to get to know the On One first. It had all the stuff I'd poo-pood for years. 29" wheels, tubeless tyres, modern geometry, uppy-downy seatpost, single chainring and so on. Turns out, I loved it!
I loved it so much I rode it for a year before I decided to "ruin" it by doing the conversion. The motor went straight in fine - once I'd ground off one of the chain device lugs. It has a 42T chainring so decided to go for an 11-52T cassette to keep a similar low gear ratio to the original.
For batteries I didn't want a massive frame mounted job as it looks crap and is hard to mount on the On One frame. I decided to use LiPos as I already had a ton of them for RC cars. They're smaller and more powerful than Li-Ion batteries but are tricky to handle, use and charge. I wouldn't recommend them for everyone but if you've got the know-how it's doable. I went with two 6S 6000MAh batteries in series to give 12S 50.2V and 6Ah. You should really use 13S TBH but all my RC cars run on 6S so I had tons of 3S and 6S LiPos.
The beauty of the LiPos is that they fit easily in a saddle pack. I had to extend the motor wire and fit an XT90 connector but a bit of soldering and it was all good.
An hour and a half was enough to do it all fairly deliberately. Running the cables and fitting the speed sensor was the most annoying but worth trying and re-trying to get it right. I wasn't able to fit my new cassette as the DT Swiss hub had a SRAM freehub (who knew?) so I'm waiting on the Shimano one arriving. The gear range is therefore a bit limited currently.
So, off for the first test at Tarland MTB trails. It's a straight drag up the hill then down either the blue, orange or red and repeat. I normally do about 15 circuits or so.
It was great! Did 20+ circuits without breaking sweat. The bike felt a little heavier but handled fine. Ground clearance is a bit less but that's contributed to by lack of rider skills too. I'd fitted the optional thumb throttle so sometimes I just climbed without pedalling, other times I climbed in what is, effectively, a big ring and whizzed up the hill.
Range? No idea yet. The battery meter still said about 3\4 full but LiPos tend to hold their voltage well then "fall off a cliff" and they're permanently damaged if their voltage drops too low. RC cars have a low voltage cutoff (LVC) to prevent this but I fitted LiPo alarms which bleep if the battery reaches a preset limit. The batteries were still showing 3.9v per cell so plenty of life left. I do have another set I can carry in a backpack and changeover if needed so we'll see how it goes.
I'd say I've spent about £750 to get to this point. Or £850 if you account for the two 6S LiPos. I like the bike because it's fun, not too heavy and looks "normal". I'll still ride my regular bikes for fitness and out with others but I'm glad I built this too.
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It had all the stuff I’d poo-pood for years. 29″ wheels, tubeless tyres, modern geometry, uppy-downy seatpost, single chainring and so on. Turns out, I loved it!
Firstly, what kind of mad man are you? Turning your nose up at all the best new innovations in years then being surprised to find out they work?
But yeah, all the other stuff. Kits look alright and I'd love to fit one to a DH bike and do laps all day. I haven't fully researched what I'd need yet.
Firstly, what kind of mad man are you? Turning your nose up all the best new innovations in years then being surprised to find out they work?
That kind of mad man! TBH I was happy with the three 26" wheeled bikes I had - 2009 Iron Horse 6.6, LaPierre Zesty and Orange Evo4 - and even happier to keep my head buried firmly in the sand. 😆
I still prefer the IH 🤔
Looked at both the models. They're pretty cheap before getting a battery bought. Both square taper axles for roadie/commuter bikes?
How do you replace a worn axle/bearings/BB?
You can get replacement bearings on AliExpress. You can also upgrade the nylon drive gear with a brass one.
TBH I'm not gonna be doing thousands of miles on it so it won't be an issue the way I'm planning on using it.
You can upgrade the cranks with any Shimano Steps compatible square taper ones. FC-E5000, FC-E6000\6010 etc.
I had the idea of putting the batteries in a back pack the other day. Is it a production thing or is just you and me who are ahead of the curve? How much do they weigh ?
bike looks better for it and must handle more like a proper bike with a full camelbak.
I think it looks great and proper bargain too. Never been a great fan on e-bikes but I can see me going down that way when I’m a bit older. I like the idea you could put these on a mtb and a gravel bike and just swap the battery pack across, saving a chunk of cash.
Please reposition or trim the tie-wrap on the left chainstay, they can unzip your leg with a short tang sticking out.
I had the idea of putting the batteries in a back pack the other day. Is it a production thing or is just you and me who are ahead of the curve? How much do they weigh ?
1.9kg for the pair. Not light but not too heavy either. I've seen other people use batteries in a back pack. Downside is there's a wire connecting you to the bike. Upside is the mass is moveable with you and not static on the bike.
You can get pretty much any size, weight and shape of E-Bike battery you want so back packs are a good option. You'll save weight by not having to stuff your pack full of cakes seeing as you're not burning off so much energy.
Please reposition or trim the tie-wrap on the left chainstay, they can unzip your leg with a short tang sticking out
Good spot mate. That pic was when I was mocking up the bike and wanted to show the motor. The zip ties were for the speed sensor which wasn't in its final position. All sorted now. 👍
Cool write up, cheers for that!
Is that £850 all in including the bike? I’ve been idly thinking about an ebike conversion recently but that’s way cheaper than I ever expected - benefits of somewhere like aliexpress I guess?
Is the top speed still limited to 15mph like an off the shelf UK offering?
Yeah that's all in. If I was doing it from scratch I'd build a 52V 7Ah battery using 18650 cells. That would fit in a saddle pack too. There's a commercial one available called a Mighty Mini Cube or there are guys who build batteries by spot welding but nowadays you can also buy kits to build them yourself with no welding\soldering required.
You can go into the menu on the display and set the speed limit up to 45kmh or you can turn it off altogether.
The only thing to watch out for is whether the motor housing will foul on the chainstays or not. Most hardtails are OK but a quite a few full sussers seem to have chainstays that flare out a bit quicker rendering them unsuitable.
I've got a little knowledge of lipos from rc aircraft. Is there not a danger from crashing with them in your backpack resulting in a pretty fierce fire?
Is there not a danger from crashing with them in your backpack resulting in a pretty fierce fire?
Indeed there is! A fire that you CAN'T PUT OUT too!
I've damaged a few LiPos jumping RC cars. They don't tend to burst into flames then. The issues happen when you try and charge an already damaged battery.
LiPo safety is a big issue. You can burn your house down if you get it wrong. I'm not advocating that people go out and buy LiPos to power their E-Bikes but I was just using what I already had lying around plus I've got the (hard earned) knowledge base to go with it.
There are Li-Ion alternatives that do a similar job.
That does look quite neat for a conversion however it's a motor bike not an e-bike because;
I’d fitted the optional thumb throttle
it’s a motor bike not an e-bike
Technically that's correct. It also has a 750w motor rather than the prescribed 250w plus it's not limited to 15.5mph either. 😁
OP.Could you do a link to a make your own battery kit please.
Looks good that mate, nice and neat. Not a fan of the tablet on the bars but serves a purpose!
Is it noisy?
OP.Could you do a link to a make your own battery kit please
I'd get LiitoKala 18650s of AliExpress. Cost you about £55-60 for 28.
Not a fan of the tablet
Me neither but that display allows you to have a throttle and connect it to ST Pro to hack the firmware.
There are 5 or 6 displays you can use including this minimalist one.
Is it noisy?
No. Just a quiet whirring.
Certainly quieter than my laboured wheezing when I'm climbing - which I've been told is reminiscent of a dying horse.
If someone wanted to do a really stealthy conversion Specialized did the Carbon Framed Stumpjumper (plus some others) from 2016 on with a SWAT door. I've seen people make up linked sets of 18650 batteries and stick them in the frame. Pretty neat!
I like to pedal. I like to suffer.
Then fits 750 unrestricted motor with thumb throttle to a bike. 🤣
Then fits 750 unrestricted motor with thumb throttle to a bike.
Ha ha! Yeah, you got me there.
I still like to suffer on the other bikes though.
I'll probably take off the throttle and fit a smaller display at some point.
namastebuzz
If someone wanted to do a really stealthy conversion Specialized did the Carbon Framed Stumpjumper (plus some others) from 2016 on with a SWAT door. I’ve seen people make up linked sets of 18650 batteries and stick them in the frame. Pretty neat!
Can't help thinking the massive motor and cranks / chainring from the 90s might still give the game away.
Can’t help thinking the massive motor and cranks / chainring from the 90s might still give the game away.
True but you could fit the Lekkie Bling Ring and Buzz Bar Cranks.
My mate at work did a front wheel conversion to a 20 quid gumtree bike, cist him a few hundred quid all in, it does about 30 mph I had a quick blast it was like a quiet motorbike lol crapped myself as the rim brakes are crap for that speed
Funnily enough I've got an On One Codeine frame gathering dust in the garage.
Conversion looks really good. I'd be worried about the position of the motor though. The Codeine already has a pretty low BB, that motor housing looks like it would be getting regularly smashed off rocks if it got used on proper trails.
For anyone thinking about longevity- I have one of these 750 TSDZ02 motors with a 48v hailong battery, (downtube mount) and no thumb throttle. (the devil's work- and heavily reduces range) Adaptors for thick/thin chainrings are available on ebay/aliexpress, and I've used it for my rolling commute of 25 miles since September 2020. I went for the bigger motor as I often carry panniers/laptop/clothes. I've clocked up over 5000 km on it with no internal bearing/ blue nylon drive replacement. This has all been commuting on back lanes though, so steady cadence, not cranking hard off road!
I’d be worried about the position of the motor though.
Well the Codeine down tube climbs more sharply from the BB than a lot of other full sussers I looked at so it's more advantageous than most. It is a bit lower than the original chainring but not by a lot. I just took it on a rocky trail last night and didn't ground it out. Ultimately the worst I can see happening would be you cracked the housing.
For anyone thinking about longevity-
Good info. Thanks. I've already realised that I don't need the throttle. All the build threads I'd read said - you don't need the throttle but I had to find out for myself.
Interestingly, that Turbo Levo I fixed - the motor failed shortly after. It took them 6 weeks (Evans) to replace it under warranty. The owner pressed them for the actual repair cost if it wasn't warrantied but they couldn't answer him.
I have another friend who's had two Brose motors fail on his Specialized - both replaced under warranty.
Looks good OP.
Have you got links for the kit used please, will probably use a down tube battery.
Have you got links for the kit used please, will probably use a down tube battery
They also have an eBay store and Alixpress store. I had vouchers and discount codes for AliExpress so I got it from there. They seem to have a good rep for customer service. They certainly answered me quickly and were helpful but I didn't have any issues or problems so can't comment on how they handle that side.
They ship from Europe - Germany, Czech Rep. or Poland so stuff comes pretty quick.
Thanks for that, very helpful. I was thinking of assisting my recumbent trike and the TS was top of the list. Bottle mount battery on the boom. No throttle. My cruising speed is 15-17 mph, but it is a bugger up the hills and relatively slow to get up to speed.
Interestingly, that Turbo Levo I fixed – the motor failed shortly after. It took them 6 weeks (Evans) to replace it under warranty.
On the other hand I snapped the input shaft on a Kenevo motor on a Thursday.
Stripped it out and posted it off on the Friday and received a new motor back and fitted it on the Tuesday.
Race Co Cycles brilliant warranty service.
It would have been even quicker if I didn't now live 250 miles away.
Race Co Cycles brilliant warranty service
I like hearing stories like that! 👍
I guess with a £200 Chinese motor you're on your own though. PSWPower do have a load of spares for it on their site, which is encouraging.
Cheers for link OP.
Had a quick look, a bit overwelming with so many kits around!
Throttles and over 250kW motors are not legal on roads or bridleways.
You have to be assisted in pedalling to be classed as an electrically assisted bicycle and therefore legally able to use the roads and paths bikes can used.
E-bikes are fantastic and great for getting more people riding. I am concerned that people will get confused by the illegal more powerful and throttle bikes around and there will be a backlash which puts more restrictions on cycling.
Throttles and over 250kW motors are not legal on roads or bridleways.
Oh, that's ok, I only ride mine on the pavement and footpaths.
Throttles and over 250kW motors are not legal on roads or bridleways
Indeed they are but if you have a choice of motors between 250w and 750w you're gonna go for the biggest you can aren't you?
My 750w doesn't feel that much more powerful than factory UK legal E-Bikes that I've ridden TBH and I think there's a good deal of licence going on with how manufacturers rate their systems.
I'm not riding that differently when out mountain biking, just climbing a bit quicker. I think it's different if you're blasting along the High Street without pedalling at 35mph. That's the behaviour that's gonna cause trouble. Besides, I've a got a little sticker on mine saying 250w so it's all good. 😆
Interesting on the throttle thing - our 15yr old rides to the station every morning on an E-Rider Model 15 electric Moped. It has pedals AND a twistgrip throttle. The law changed in April 2016 to outlaw throttle use but, because it's a 2015 model, it's still OK and is classed as an E-Bike despite looking like a Moped, having proper lights and indicators and doing 15mph purely on the throttle.
(Best not to mention the fatbike my brother is building with a 2700w motor however 🙄)
Namastebuzz. I'm sure you're enjoying playing the likely lad on here, and are proud of your invention, (I like how you thought of using lipos and found a way to do it), but could you do me a favour and start trying to understand about our environment and shared space?
There are many people who enjoy spending peaceful time in the woods, ranging from walkers to people like me who ride out to enjoy the beauty and silence of nature.
Blasting round on a 750w hand throttle bike is fun for you but inconsiderate to others. When I'm off road I don't want to have to keep checking over my shoulder like on the road. It's my escape from the craziness and now being spoilt by the increasing motorisation of our hobby. Teaching others how to do it on the Internet increases the impact of your actions and just adds to the problem.
The lack of self awareness in the last post is astonishing. It's what every red sock ever says about standard mountain biking.
I know. But I ride so considerately, stop for walkers, say hello and try to spread good feeling amongst those I encounter enjoying the countryside.
Oh why do I ever bother get involved in this?
Do what you do and to hell with everyone else. It's what we all do anyway. Like you say, to someone else, I'm the problem.
I’m old fat knacker and I can put out 500w for a few minutes on a climb if I was on an ebike on turbo that wound be 750w. I’m not sure that average rambler is going to differentiate between that and thus guy with his throttle. Once e-bike were permitted the cat was out the bag. I rather this that some of the folk I see ragging around town at 30mpg plus on hub motor conversions.
Thanks rollingdoughnut. Any input is welcome.
I posted this up to let people know what can be done and hoped it would be interesting.
I'm probably not that different to yourself in outlook. I also hike, bag Munros, kayak down the coast and walk the dog as well as mountain bike. I've got 4 mountain bikes and only one is electrified and, as most of my riding is for fitness, it won't be out that much.
Where it will come in handy is at trail centres where you want to do the descents more often or on certain routes with long, tough climbs that you just want to get up coz there's a great descent to be had.
The throttle doesn't make the bike go as fast as if you're on pedal assist. It's not a motorbike and, with relatively low gearing, it doesn't really go any faster than if you were pedalling at the max. The real advantage is the effort it saves you when climbing.
Bottom line is you're either polite and respectful to other people or you're not. On about 90% of my rides I probably never see another soul but, if I do, I'm always the former.
Thanks. That was a nice response.
I've been struggling with the state of the world today, I guess like a lot of people at the moment.
Would that be the wildly judgemental people assuming that just because someone has an electric assistance bike that they'd be a bad person?
I’ve been struggling with the state of the world today, I guess like a lot of people at the moment
Hey, we all struggle at times. If I made your day better - that's cool.
Yes thepodge, exactly those sort of people 😆
Don't even think of getting me started on my opinion of BMW/Audi drivers. (Apart from my neighbour John, he's nice, and Claire, she's nice too, and my pal Andy, such a quiet and thoughtful bloke) but the rest of them, the ones I don't know, they're all c....
I found it interesting, I'm no convinced I'd replicate it but it is nice to see it done so thanks for sharing.
Interesting thoughts on available power. I've got my name down for an upcoming conversion (Lightest, on indiegogo, I do hope it is not totally pie in the sky) and will go for the lowest power option (250/500/750/1000). I just want a bit of help on the steep uphills on a standard bike and at the lowest weight penalty. To me, more power just means a larger heavier battery.
I’m no convinced I’d replicate it
Fair enough. LiPos aren't for everyone. I'm looking at 48v Li-Ion batteries on AliExpress too.
That seat pack I'm using could be half the size and still take the LiPos. I could get a bigger 48v 10ah Li-Ion that's 20cm long that would still fit in a seat pack and give me superior range for not much over £100.
I’m old fat knacker and I can put out 500w for a few minutes on a climb if I was on an ebike on turbo that wound be 750w. I’m not sure that average rambler is going to differentiate between that and thus guy with his throttle. Once e-bike were permitted the cat was out the bag. I rather this that some of the folk I see ragging around town at 30mpg plus on hub motor conversions.
+1
I was riding with a friend on a similar 750W ebike conversion and I could match him on short climbs on a normal bike - did run out of lungs after a few 100m though. Although I think the extra weight of the ebike means 750W is more like 500W on a non ebike.
I can't get past the fact that you got the base bike for £500.
Was the seller still wearing his balaclava?
I can’t get past the fact that you got the base bike for £500.
Was the seller still wearing his balaclava?
Ha ha! It came up on FB marketplace early one morning. I messaged the seller about 10 minutes after. He'd already had one buyer enquiring but got his number and did a deal immediately on the phone and paid him a deposit before picking it up a couple of days later. But of luck to spot it that quickly then able to get enough good vibes from talking to him to get it done.
It had been used for Enduros so not exactly perfect nick but the suspension had been serviced and some decent upgrades so happy enough. Mate of mine has exactly the same bike (which he'd bought new) and wasn't too pleased when I showed up on a ride with my bargain buy. 😆