[Closed] So – I broke my Jones Spaceframe part 2

What happened with the broken fork?

46 pages, 13 bannings, 3 flounces.

Sorry to disappoint you fellow members but this is in my opinion a total rip off

Many other brands wouldn’t even offer 10% off on an 8 year old frame. What were you hoping he would offer?

Get it repaired by someone else?

IIRC FRC had to buy a new fork. And recently he broke that one hitting a tree...

I hoped he would weld it himself and I would pay for transport. He is still a builder.

What a crap attitude. I wouldn’t expect it to be repaired for free necessarily but you would think he could at least be nice, apologise and if he genuinely didn’t have time to fix it explain why he wasn’t able to.

But for such extraordinary expensive frames I would expect him to find time to repair previous customers  frames. He’s got time to make new ones, repairing one can’t take as long as building a new one which he is quite happy to sell to the OP.

Too many people seem to think that Ti will last forever. There are so many stories of cracked Ti frames that I'd actually say it often has a shorter lifespan than other frame materials.

The 10% off deal does sound a bit derisory. Compare this with some UK steel framebuilders who will fix your frame no matter what.

I even offered to pay for it and let him take the time for it but no just the door in my face.

“I hoped he would weld it himself and I would pay for transport. He is still a builder.”

Is he? He makes the prototypes but aren’t all the frames now made in Taiwan? And if you’re in the UK, won’t shipping back and forth cost more than a frame repair?

I’ve just looked through the warranty pages of a Jones bike manual. Blimey. The way you are allowed to ride each type of bike and still be covered by the warranty is so specific and detailed there’s so many holes they can wiggle through to avoid honouring the warranty.

Im not their sort of customer so it doesn’t matter to much to him but it put me off buying one for sure.

I hoped he would weld it himself

He can't because...

He has no time and complains that he is too busy too ride!

So....

Get it repaired by someone else?

And move on, 8yrs isn't bad for ti frame. A bit dissapointing maybe, but far from unusual.

Many other brands wouldn’t even offer 10% off on an 8 year old frame.

And many offer a lifetime warranty. I guess there's an expectation that the more you pay, the better the service.

Bad luck...

When buying the frames is there any information on warranty or on his website, etc? I guess it's nice to think you'd get over 8 years from a silly expensive frame or a cheaper replacement but I can see why that's not the case. Presumably the flex / shock absorbing design of the frame means that fatigue life is always going to be finite.

The off hand treatment is not great but then in reality people buy into the bearded man in a shack image so I'm not sure that less than perfect customer relations is such a surprise.

As suggested I think your best bet it getting it repaired in the UK if that can be done in a cost effective way

8yrs isn’t bad for ti frame

😳

8 yrs is a good stint I reckon.

Shame he won’t fix it, plenty of other frame builders that will though.

Many other brands wouldn’t even offer 10% off on an 8 year old frame.

And many offer a lifetime warranty. I guess there’s an expectation that the more you pay, the better the service.

Ha!

Even On One offerred a 10% discount on a new frame when my mate's battered and abused 8  year old steel 456 had rusted and snapped at the chainstay.He didn't have to send itback either they just accepted what he said over the phone.

Ti frames crack. All this frame for life stuff is crap atmo.

Also if its cracked at the seatube, its not exactly an easy(cheap) repair, you can't exactly just weld the crack.

Clearly not interested in your future custom.  Must be doing okay.  Move on, get it fixed by someone else, and don't buy from him again.

Planet X took my 8 year old cracked Titanium frame back this year and got it repaired without any questions - came back looking like new. They aren't exactly a premium brand....

This is the reason I sold my Ti spaceframe.

I had already cracked the frame and fork and had them replaced once each.

After that I just sold it to someone who was a little gentler with his riding.

I'd say you've done well to get eight years out of it.

Every Ti frame I've ever owned bar one has cracked.

I'm sure that one would also have broken if I'd kept it longer.

For comparison

WARRANTY CONDITIONS
Article 1 – Warranty Period

1.1 Van Nicholas will replace (not repair) any Titanium frame that fails due to manufacturer defects in materials or workmanship for the lifetime of the frame. Every bicycle has a limited life, the so-called useable life-cycle. The duration of the useable life-cycle of bicycles depends on the type of frame, the way in which and the circumstances under which the bicycle is ridden and the care/maintenance the bicycle receives. The lifetime guarantee period is established on the basis of the duration of the useable life cycle of the bicycle. Van Nicholas sets the lifetime of their frames at an average of 25 years.

'average'?

Shame it wasn’t designed by Brant.

You could have sold it on, and then later got a full refund in cash 👍

I had an email recently from Stanton saying that I have a lifetime warranty on my frame. It's steel though.

Shame it wasn’t designed by Brant.

You could have sold it on, and then later got a full refund in cash

You need to moan about for a decade before that happens, and he's only just started.

Think of it as a blessing, a chance to buy a frame that's not ugly as ****.

By way of contrast, Lynskey often get slated on here, but when my Ragley Ti cracked at the downtube just below the headtube junction it was fixed and then upgraded by them under their lifetime warranty and Mark Lynskey took the time to explain to me why it had failed at that point.

Also, somewhere in the middle of the process, I talked to the guys at Enigma about the possibility of having the frame repaired in the UK. I don't know if they have the capacity to repair third party frames, but might, at least, be worth an e-mail if you're interested in getting it fixed over here.

I read recently on a similar sort of thread that Enigma were dead busy and were only looking a repairs/adaptations to frames they'd built.

If you want to keep your frame & want it repaired, i believe this is a Jones frame that TJD repaired in the summer:

View this post on Instagram

check out his Instagram for other nifty work in the magic metal.

Joop

If you're intersted in a 26er ti spaceframe and truss fork let me know. It was built by Jeff and I seem to remember has a lifetime warranty though that may just be in an email to me...

I run it as 26x2.4 at the back, 27.5x3 at the front

12 years old though... no signs of failure yet!

That's a bit poor considering the cost of a Jones.

Lifetime* warranty seems to be a great get out clause for many companies.

If it was mine, I'd wrap around the offending crack with a horrible mess of carbon, resin and sellotape, then continue riding it.  A bit like those bamboo bikes.

Plenty of seatpost insertion obvs.

*Lifetime of some unspecified thing, just not your actual lifetime.  A frog maybe.

OP, I feel your pain and would be bugged off myself if that happened. It's one of the reasons why I eventually opted for a steel jones.

I did however get a Ti custom Stooge frame made which takes 120mm bouncy forks in 650B+ format as I wanted something for ragging about the place as opposed to being left behind on the Jones when things got too rough. If I get 8 years out of it I'll be happy. My logic is...how far has bike design moved in the last 8? I suspect geo and design will have moved on and I'll be hankering after whatever the latest 'snake oil' is.

I'll keep the Jones though as it's just good at everything. In saying that I wanted to try it in 'plus' format so I bought an old battered SH steel jones diamond and had the stays flattened / widened / crimped with a specific stay crimping tool to accept 650bx3 tyres. It's lasted a couple of years now and I've taken it everywhere on some very rough & long fully laden bike packing routes...AND I use it everyday as a single speed commute bike.

My logic is simple, if the steel stays crack I'll get new stays made.

On a slight aside, I'm not 100% convinced bikes which are 2-3lbs lighter than the rest, result in a significant advantage unless you're Sir Brad or Sir Hoy. Sure...Ti is nice to look at and own and you don't really have to think about protecting paint chips etc but as a way of loosing weight....if I really thought it mattered, I'd lose some of the excess weight around my midriff...it's free too!

Took long to figure out how to weld high quality aluminium in the biking industry...

Ti : maybe stuff the aircraft guys should stick to? Ti is great material - but the hell difficult to make parts from.

Lifetime warranty: in the end they always screw you.

Too bad!

So I called Jeff and explain him the problem and send him a picture of my frame. He answers that he can’t do anything about it, there is no warranty and even if I offer to pay for transport he refuses to fix it:

thats a bit shoddy.

i cracked my Pegoretti, Dario (RIP) just said “put in a box and send to me” charged me for a repaint on the repair which i didn’t have  problem with at all. frame was 12 years old.

thats what ‘warranty’ should mean with a small niche high end builder

On my 'third time lucky' Van Nicholas Tuareg.

They changed the other two without any hassle and a super quick turnaround.

The last one was a 650b frame ,so the trails are now very much alive.

Great service ,I would buy another frame from V N in a blink.

Some Ti frames last for ever,some don't.

Lifetime usually just means the warranty (for the original owner)

Ti : maybe stuff the aircraft guys should stick to? Ti is great material – but the hell difficult to make parts from.

To be fair, people have been building titanium frames for donkey's years now. There's no mystery over how to weld ti, it's just a more exacting process than steel welding, but if you buy a ti frame with any level of background knowledge, you'll know that and also that while they have decent resistance to fatigue, they will still break, particularly if the design is poor. On the plus side, ti is repairable by a welder with the relevant skills, it's just harder to find one than it would be with an equivalent steel frame.

Incidentally, repairing alloy frames which crack is far more problematic because of the need to heat treat the welded area after repair, but for some reason you rarely find threads bashing alloy frames for either their lack of fatigue resistance or repairability, presumably because they're relatively cheap.

8 yrs is a good stint I reckon.

At that price, it's a pile of croc IMO

I read recently on a similar sort of thread that Enigma were dead busy and were only looking a repairs/adaptations to frames they’d built.

Aye, that's the reply I got from them when I enquired recently about a cracked (non-Enigma) frame. Just to be clear, I'm not complaining about that at all, good on them for doing well with a full order book but if you need repair I'd look elsewhere.

Good to see you found your way to the bike forum after hiding in the classified section for so long.

Was this a new frame or s/h? Just get it repaired elsewhere, you're not going to get anywhere with  trying to get it repaired with Jeff

Did you buy it from/through me? If that’s the case then I’d like to explore contributing to the cost of getting it fixed locally. I’m not technical and perhaps it’s not possible/realistic but I do look to support/assist customers (and fellow Jones riders) when I can.

By the by… my (original) Ti Jones is still going strong – not been ridden recently and when I did ride it I was 60kg and notoriously jey with my riding so perhaps not a good comparison. These things happen. Email me if you think I can help. Thanks.

Biff

Ted James would probably repair it for you, the prices are Jones stuff is a joke now, £4000 for a frame made in taiwan is madness

Mark Lynskey took the time to explain to me why it had failed at that point.

TBF, that's just Mark Lynskeys out-of-office email.

I had a similar response from Jeff and team when I found a chainstay crack on my spaceframe, bit of a shame but it seems like Jones Bikes have grown a lot recently.

In the end I got it welded by Enigma for £90, I've ridden it pretty hard since then and it's held up fine. There were a few other people that said they could weld it, message me if you want and I'll make a list.

Lifetime* warranty

Yeah I don't get why people do that when, in practice, only a tiny proportion of frames will be used for long enough that some "average use for 25 years" bollocks would make any difference.

IME (and that of a few mates), ti just doesn't last! Oddly, alu frames if well made last best (if they're well designed and built, obvs), although it makes sense when you consider what the majority of most aircraft have been made of for >50 years.

Speak to Enigma, they did an excellent and reasonably un-ugly repair on my Soda.

8 years might seem a decent life to some people, but on a £5200 frame-and-fork? I'd want that to last at least as long as 3 bikes.Where else really does the money go? Or is it all just sucker tax, like, if you'll spend £5000 on a frame and a fork, you'll do it whether or not it comes with good support?

(what even is the warranty? I looked on the website and I can't find a thing)

I'd imagine Jeff Jones spends a lot of time cultivating his hipster persona  to ensure he can justify the prices  which ensure his products are  seen as uber cool  and not for the many. You probably interrupted him trimming his beard whilst simultaneously sipping a craft beer ....most inconsiderate !

former jones owner here.  expensive over priced stuff. a lot of bluff and bluster. cheaper bikes do everything just as well.

i too would be a bit miffed.

Might be worth contacting Vernon Barker in dronfield - they've done some interesting repairs and mods on frames for me in the past, and I'm sure they could do ti.

That's a fair offer from biff if you bought through the UK Chanel.

In contrast a friend of mines surly fork caliper stud mount failed on Saturday. Surly emailed back to say she's getting a new one foc asap.

Probably a good thing as she's bound for Beijing on two wheels shortly.

+1 for scotroutes comments about the Van Nicholas warranty. I have a Redwood Ti 29er which is a specific model year when they had track type horizontal drop outs, 2013 spec I think. I use it for Bikepacking with a Rohloff hub so the drop outs are perfect for chain tension adjustment. Last year the downtube cracked just under the head tube so I contacted them, they asked for photos of the crack and whole bike then found an exact replica and sent it to me without wanting the old one back, just a proof of purchase. It had been built up for publicity photos so included a headset foc. No hassle, cost or fuss. Good customer service. I was a bit concerned that they may be a bit arsey as I'd bought the original from Planet X at a fraction of RRP.

For the cost of those frames I would agree with what many have said, not the sort of "can't be asked" reply you would expect.

Fortunately I could never afford one anyway.

8 years might seem a decent life to some people, but on a £5200 frame-and-fork?

They didn't cost that much 8 years ago.

So they look crap, ride crap and break? It's a no from me.

It’s a no from me

I'm sure MrJones is crying into his craft beer over that.😉

FIVE THOUSAND QUID for a rigid frame and fork?

FIVE THOUSAND QUID for a rigid frame and fork?

Well...if you allow the crack to 'develop' some more it won't really be rigid...

I don't think the price of a frame magically makes it immune to breaking, eight years is a long time and if he says there's no warranty I certainly wouldn't be expecting anything.

TBF, that’s just Mark Lynskeys out-of-office email.

respect where it's due - that's splendid ! 🙂

I’d be very upset if I was the OP.

Crappy attitude...op is a customer, no need to be an arse even if answer is no.

I too would be very upset. At that price it’s a lifetime purchase. I would hope the price would go some way to customer care. You’d have got better from Giant.

Enigma will fix it and probably better than it was originally made.

I always wanted one - see user name. But maybe I should swap name to FeRed instead!

A friend had a Trek touring frame, made of steel, which he bought with a lifetime warranty about twenty years ago. The downtube came away from the headtube recently, and Trek just sent him a new frame in the post.

It's the latest model but pretty much identical except made in Taiwan rather than Wisconsin (or wherever the first one was made).

So eight years seems quite short.

A mate had his ancient Van Nic replaced FOC because they'd forgotten to fit brake hose guides, something he discovered when upgrading to discs.

Richard at Enigma here. Thanks for the positive comments all. We are busy making our own frames, and taking on less repairs, but we try to help where possible. Some jobs are just not economical but if you would like to email some pics to sales@enigmabikes.com we will see if anything can be done. Cheers

I'm no Jones expert but I understand he's a low volume, if not quite a one man band only has a few employees. So he makes 200 frames a year. As time goes by there's now 2,000 of his frames out there. Some will break, some will be damaged, at what point does he stop making new frames because all his time is taken up with repairing all the frames already in existence ? Maybe 8yrs is the cut of point where he feels your on your own, purely as a practical reality.

There's only one frame builder in the world that I would trust to weld me up a Ti frame, except he wouldn't trust himself to do it...

I’m no Jones expert but I understand he’s a low volume, if not quite a one man band only has a few employees. So he makes 200 frames a year. As time goes by there’s now 2,000 of his frames out there. Some will break, some will be damaged, at what point does he stop making new frames because all his time is taken up with repairing all the frames already in existence ? Maybe 8yrs is the cut of point where he feels your on your own, purely as a practical reality.

to be fair, if he's done £10mm worth of bikes (200x£5000x10) he can probably last a couple of years making no bikes at all. Or, y'know, if he built them properly it'd be less of an issue

TBF, that’s just Mark Lynskeys out-of-office email.

You know it might be more helpful to people if you explained your issue with Lynskey rather than just resorting to cheap shots. My experience of the brand was that they stood by their lifetime warranty and, ultimately, went a stage further too. If you've had a bad experience with the brand, why not just share it? Might be useful to anyone thinking of buying a Lynskey.

+1 for fantastic CS from Lynskey

I did chuckle at Scotroutes comment though.  Think Scotroutes has discussed this before based on his experience working at a shop and the volume of Lynskey returns. Reports on Lynskey frame breakages also crop up on social media as well. However Lynskey do make a lot of Titanium frames so we have no evidence of what the failure rate is, so until I see actual stats I dont accept that they are any more or less prone to breakage than any other Ti manufacturer.

What I do know is their customer service is excellent and that is key for me buying an expensive frame. Like Northwind I had a look for Jones warranty and couldnt find it anywhere which would concern me. If the warranty is "Lifetime" then I expect that to be... my lifetime and I would expect the supplier to factor the likelihood/cost of replacement into the purchase price.  In this case any other reason why they are so expensive?

Brilliant of Biff and Enigma to offer to help as well

 Maybe 8yrs is the cut of point where he feels your on your own, purely as a practical reality.

If that's the case he should state it on his warranty terms

£4k for a direct sales on a Taiwanese ti frame means there's plenty of margin to offer a lifetime warranty - Jones simply needs to pay for warranty insurance like most businesses trying to maintain a decent reputation would do.

And if 8 years is the cut off, as others have said, he still doesn't need to be an arse about it on the phone. Politeness costs nothing (alhtough if you're willing to charge £5.2k for a Taiwanese-built frame, maybe it does....).

If that’s the case he should state it on his warranty terms

Does he actually offer a specific warranty. I've not been able to find any info. In the OP's words.

. He answers that he can’t do anything about it, there is no warranty

Maybe its all on a case by case basis, maybe he'll help maybe he won't. Not saying thats good but he doesn't seem short of buisness.

Me with another by-the-by – can’t help myself…

These mentions of Taiwanese frames – should I add in the “I’m not a racist but…” at the start or do I assume the authors each have in-depth knowledge of all the costs and processes and people involved in the creating of every bicycle frame across the planet?

Biff – sweeping statements under the carpet since 1998  :O)

I bought a Mk1 Airborne Lucky Strike direct from Jan in the Netherlands in 1998. It's far eastern and came with lifetime warranty. Airborne morphed into Van Nic in Europe in 2006, who offered a limited warranty on Airbornes (3 or 5 years?) to the original owner. That ain't what I signed up for but that's life.

As for 'investing' in a ti frame. I ride carefully and infrequently so this frame's still sound and fantastic to ride. I can't complain if it fails after 20 years. The only welding it has had is IS disc mounts, done by Vernon Barker for £80 in the late 2000s. Alignment is perfect and the welds are neat enough, recommended.

Sure the geometry is archaic; 71/73 head and seat tube with a 24" ETT, so it climbs way better than it descends but I won't be 'upgrading' to a modern bike unless it fails.

Bottom line, buying anything ti is an expensive gamble. I've been lucky, some haven't. Ti may last longer than a cheaper frame but even if it doesn't, the way ti rides makes me smile more than any other material so I'm sticking with it for life.

...eight years is a long time and if he says there’s no warranty I certainly wouldn’t be expecting anything

I'm sorry, but my Halfords frame is older than that and it's doing just fine. They don't sell frames separately, but if we were to break down the cost of components, it was probably around £50, at the most.

So what exactly do you pay 5 grand for?

- I suspect for a lot of people, customer service and after sales care would be at the top of the list.

- Reliability would be close behind (especially given that Ti has a reputation of being the ultimate in durability and performance, something that you might consider a bike for life)

- Performance would be up there, but in all likelihood you could spend the same money on a carbon bike that performs better. You buy a Jones because you're more interested in the above.

- Innovation would apply here. However, it doesn't come across as all that innovative when it fails to excel in any area. It's just a very expensive piece of art.

Personally I'd expect it to be fixed.

especially given that Ti has a reputation of being the ultimate in durability and performance

It does?  I thought it had a reputation for doing just what it's done here: cracking.

I had a steel Jones Spaceframe for a while. Couldn’t get on with it, but that was probably more due me , thinking that I could ride a rigid bike like a trail bike at Afan.

However,it is still the most comfortable bike I have owned ( accepting that it is a rigid and not full suss etc).

It is the only bike I regret selling.

However, Jeff Jones should be ashamed of the shoddy after sales service he has given to the owner of his flagship frame.

In contrast, Biff’s offer of advice and help is excellent.

My original Tripster cracked at a cable stop weld - retailer had gone out of business but Kinesis swapped the frame with the bare minimum of what I'd consider perfectly reasonable due diligence. Only a year or so old though, but the warranty terms were clear concise and reasonable, and I couldn't have been happier with the manufacturer response.

Even after 8 years I'd be annoyed at being spoken to like that, and the cost does matter - pay premium you at least deserve a reasonable conversation about it.