[Closed] So how many sales were lost at Bespoked on strength of meeting the maker?

my ideas

That's probably why. Nightmare customer alert.

They're the pro builders after all; just tell them you inside leg measurement and height and they should be able to build you a great bike.

I hardly inundated them. I just have an idea of what I want the bike to do in terms of on/off road ability, plus the fact that I don't have much of an idea of angles.. ie, happy to be advised.

In fact I pretty much rocked up and said 'I love your bikes, I want to spend my money, I have short legs and a long torso'

In fact it was Tom Sturdy who went into detail about tube selection based on weight/ride characteristics. I just listened for a good while, was interesting to be schooled.

Even so, if you expect someone to hand over best part of £4K for a ruddy steel frame - you'd better believe I want them to listen to my preferences.

🙂 should have given you a wink with that last post 😉

Surely Shand/Richards/Cooper should be the sort of people you're asking? Is bespoked not a roadies bike show?

*ahem* one of the above may have been a guilty party *cough*

And not quite, there were a few nice non-roadie bikes on show. One I didn't like quite so much, but he had cool t-shirts so I bought one.
Best feature on show, integrated whisky down tube flask, with tap at bottom of down tube. Awesome.

[quote=slimjim78 ]I also fell in love with a particular frame on display which happened to be a) very expensive b) [b]built locally to me. [/b]
Well, your profile says you're in Surrey so that should help narrow down the accused.
Shand - Scotland
Richards - Yorkshire
Cooper - ??

£4K for a steel frame 😯

*ahem* one of the above may have been a guilty party *cough*

All forum goers though, so it's to be expected....lacking social skills.

Should have taken your ipad and just sent them emails whilst you were there.

Cooper - ??

He's Scotch aswell int he?

I'd want adamantium for £4k

I'm not far from that Sturdy place, I've heard a few people say he makes very nice stuff. If I remember correctly,welshfarmer ( think it was him ) has a mate who just had one built or is having one built, and was impressed with it.

I'd want adamantium for £4k

I'd want a hot hatch for £4k

*ahem* one of the above may have been a guilty party *cough*

If it was me (or someone on our stand) let me know. Either by email or happy to chat on here. The show was a little awkward for me at times but happy to try and rectify anything (in public if need be).

I'm just making this assumption as I don't think either of the other 2 mentioned were at the show?

Didn't try and sell anyone a £4k frame though!

Pulls up chair

Offers Popcorn
Encourages david and Scotsroute to chime in

Ponders as to whether to get the bombers or the pitchfork

Only ever had good experiences at Bespoked over the last few years, had a couple of really good chats this year too.

However... The show environment probably is quite difficult for a lot of builders, there's so many people there wanting to poke and prod and chat, some genuine, some less so, limited time and not really the best time for an in depth consultation.

Hope you find what you're looking for though, it's as much about the relationship and interaction with the builder as it is the bike, after all they can all produce a top quality frame but it's the relationship that will make sure you get exactly the right thing in the end... or not 😉

Slimjim, listen to your gut, if you feel that someone is an utter cockwomble then they probably are. No need to second guess yourself, there are plenty of other great builders around - find someone that you like and trust.

4k is a lot of money, spend it on something that will make you happy. Not someone elses idea of what will make you happy.

after all they can all produce a top quality frame

Well, you say that, but I once read a story about a man who couldn't braze his frames without wonky seat tubes. Hopefully that's all sorted now though.

Tom_W1987 - Member
Slimjim, listen to your gut, if you feel that someone is an utter cockwomble then they probably are. No need to second guess yourself, there are plenty of other great builders around - find someone that you like and trust.

4k is a lot of money, spend it on something that will make you happy. Not someone elses idea of what will make you happy.

Yeh, but I mean if I was gonna spend hot hatch money on a frame, I'd want an experienced frame builder to build it. And that's not necessarily someone who wanted to pour me a cup of coffee and chat about the length of my torso for half an hour.

Starling guy was very nice very chatty very engaging. And his frame looked fab imo

But having met the builders I was instantly taken with how little time they had for me, and was practically given the brush off.

How very dare they.
What is the world coming to?

Still,I am sure they were all secretly impressed by those anal respiration and pee in the shower stories.

http://www.starlingcycles.com/frames/

Yeh, but I mean if I was gonna spend hot hatch money on a frame, I'd want an experienced frame builder to build it. And that's not necessarily someone who wanted to pour me a cup of coffee and chat about the length of my torso for half an hour.

Then keep looking. Lots of great custom builders on this planet, I'd be half tempted to spend a grand of that on a holiday abroad to have a chat with someone.

You have to wonder if by the end of one of the shows this is all the builder can see coming...

[img] [/img]

Mike, 5 years ago, if I'd come up to a custom builder...even Nicolai I reckon...and asked...can I have a 63 degree head angle trail bike with a 1300mm wheelbase and a 500mm reach....they'd have told me to **** off as they wouldn't want their name associated with such a monstrosity.

Sometimes the customer does know what they want, you should always keep an open mind, assume that they do and not treat them like complete morons - until you've spoken to them for a bit longer at least.

Engineers often know **** all about what riders actually want, witness the hilarious antics of various motogp teams trying to tell riders what they want.

I'd want a hot hatch for £4k

I bought a 3L sports car for less, do I win a prize? 😛

Only ever had good experiences at Bespoked over the last few years, had a couple of really good chats this year too.

However... The show environment probably is quite difficult for a lot of builders, there's so many people there wanting to poke and prod and chat, some genuine, some less so, limited time and not really the best time for an in depth consultation.

Didn't go this year, but have been the last few years. In my experience, more so than bike shop owners, there's no such thing as frame builder that isn't always busy. Of course this doesn't excuse ignorant behaviour, but good frame builders usually have a waiting list as long as their arm (bad ones usually have a day job) and aren't under pressure to make a good impression on any potential customer per se. Just like Tattoo artists, They let their handiwork do the talking, and the whole point of Bespoked is it's a bit of an industry competition for all the frame builders to show just how good they are right now.

Personally, when it comes to mountain bikes, I'd question what a £4K frame can do that a decent £500 steel frame doesn't, and certainly question its validity against far superior full suspension bikes. On the road however, the likes of Legend, Sarto, Pegoretti et al really earn their crust ekeing out every last nuance of ride quality and individuality out of their frames when compared to the efficient, yet largely soulless, mass made mainstream carbon bikes.

Sometimes the customer does know what they want, you should always keep an open mind, assume that they do and not treat them like complete morons - until you've spoken to them for a bit longer at least.

Out of that you will/might get some customers you want to work with - in a business like that you probably don't want to work with all the people who want to work with you. I'd certainly be trying to check their forum postings before taking some of them on 😉

The long and the short is being on the selling side of the table is tough, pressured, difficulty and exhausting which is where the Homer Simpson comes from, at some points they all look like that when you just need a break. It means not everyone gets the time they think they deserve, having been both sides I'd probably use shows as an excuse to wander, look and think, maybe have a quick chat but follow up properly when the builder has time if you are actually serious about it.

I bought a 3L sports car for less, do I win a prize?

Prize? You must be joking, I've had bigger tubs of ice cream 🙂

I've only ever dealt with one custom builder and that was Robin Mather. He had orders coming out of his ears, but answered all my emails same day and was both pleasant to deal with and on time.

On the road however, the likes of Legend, Sarto, Pegoretti et al really earn their crust ekeing out every last nuance of ride quality and individuality out of their frames when compared to the efficient, yet largely soulless, mass made mainstream carbon bikes.

Crikey, my bullshit-o-meter just exploded!

As a manufacturer, my employer hasn't attended a trade fair in 49 years and we are still growing so fast that we are having to invest heavily to keep up with demand. Our experience of trade fairs is that they attract tyre-kickers or small customers who waste your time for very little business. Our EU Sales department has just attended their first ever trade fair in Paris and as far as I know, all they got was more tyre-kickers. In Export, we are supposed to know the big consumers in our own markets.

Just because someone can make a bike frame does not mean they can be good with potential customers.

Not many people can be an artist/engineer/salesman/bikerider all in one.

globalti - every customer of a bespoke frame builder is a 'small customer', surely?

People buy bike frames as much on emotion (or because they like the colour) as anything else. Particularly with a bespoke frame - rock up with a list of requirements and there's 10 or 15 UK builders who'll happy get something soldered together and apply a shiney paint job.

So frame builders have to sell their vision, their product via things like trade shows and nice photo's in magazines. And, yes, deal with tyre kickers at shows as they try and separate the wheat fromt he chaff - and in the OP's case sometimes fail?

It's not 'wrong', it's just a different business model to yours.

As a manufacturer, my employer hasn't attended a trade fair in 49 years and we are still growing so fast that we are having to invest heavily to keep up with demand. Our experience of trade fairs is that they attract tyre-kickers or small customers who waste your time for very little business. Our EU Sales department has just attended their first ever trade fair in Paris and as far as I know, all they got was more tyre-kickers. In Export, we are supposed to know the big consumers in our own markets.

As a reasonably large uk manufacturer, my employer attends a lot of trade fairs. Yes you get tyre kickers and yes you are fed up of talking to anyone by the end of day three but I've only been to a handful of shows over the last ten years of doing this that I came away from thinking it was a total waste of time and money.

Godsdammit Njee.....you beat me to it 👿
Though I'll add

I'd question what a £4K frame can do that a decent £500 steel frame doesn't, and certainly question its validity against [b]far superior[/b] full suspension bikes

good responses.
Nay, I did manage a brief chat with Mr Shand but his stand was swamped for obvious reason so didn't expect to be able to chew the grass for long - the Shand collection was mighty nice. Plus 4K would get an awesome full build with Shand (for which I may well be in touch Steven!)

Fasthaggis - my daft forum history has little to do with my cycling preferences. And hopefully my ability to engage in half decent conversation isn't affected either. Then again..

I reckon there'll be a bit of self selection here and quite a few people who choose to spend half their lives alone in a workshop talking to a welder, might not necessarily thrive in a trade hall full of people tapping on the glass. Just a thought... We don't do trade shows, exactly, but part of my job is similiar- go to an event, and basically go "come at me bro" to 500 school kids and parents. It's not for everyone.

Yeah that's fair enough.
I think my main gripe was one guy (4K guy) pretty much dropped me mid sentence to continue a chat with another fella that he must've started earlier in the day. I stood there like a lemon for a minute or so before realising I was no longer on the radar.
But yeah, it must be really hard to manage everyone's expectations in that kind of environment.

I reckon there'll be a bit of self selection here and quite a few people who choose to spend half their lives alone in a workshop talking to a welder, might not necessarily thrive in a trade hall full of people tapping on the glass.

Always been my assumption too. I meet quite a few lone trader designer makers in my day job. Some lovable and the consomethinge professional, some plain eccentric and a walking talking ball of chaos. I've heard 'I didn't like working for someone or in a large organisation' so many times and often wondered if it was actually that way around.

I guess, if you were fairly set on buying from that guy, maybe some emails and see if you do get the requisite attention when you're definitely not a tyre-kicker.

But if you're looking to buy from someone who made a good first impression in person and builds nice stuff, then the first guy has done himself out of a sale.

No point taking it personally or holding a grudge either way. Just decide whether you care, and proceed accordingly.

🙂

Yeah, I think you've nailed it

Out of interest what are they doing to create a £4,000 steel frame? I'm not trying to be judgemental, just genuinely curious.

I've only been to one Bespoked, and it was great. Most of the builders had time to chat, even if they had a queue of people waiting! There were a few who were a bit socially awkward, but that's probably because they spend so long stuck in a workshop devoid of human contact. 🙂 I'd expect them to be great at making bike frames, not have the charm and personality of a TV presenter.

There's no excuse for rudeness though, and I did encounter one or two who seemed like they just didn't want to engage with me. One actually said he'd 'be with you in a minute', whilst appearing to browse some online clothing retailer's website on a laptop. It's ok, I'll go and talk to someone who actually at least tries to seem interested in me, thanks. Your clothes shopping is obviously more important than talking to a potential customer. 🙄

It is a showcase for talent, and an opportunity to meet the public in a way you wouldn't normally, so I'd expect builders to make the most of it. If they don't, then it's only their own time they're wasting really.

Good [url= http://www.bikerumor.com/2016/04/04/interview-tom-warmerdam-demon-frameworks/#more-126046 ]interview with Demon frameworks here[/url]. He basically cant produce what he does without a massive budget and freedom to ignore customer requirements. Basically what he produces is art, in the shape of a bike. Kind of explains the feeling you probably got talking to other custom bike builders.

Personally if I wanted a custom frame to ride id go to Dave Yates or similar, someone who has built bikes forever and has the riding experience (of their own bikes) to build what you need in a bike. Artisan framebuilders are great if you want a bike that looks a certain way or a piece of art, but its a lot more money than a Dave yates or Rourke or similar.

Out of interest what are they doing to create a £4,000 steel frame?

Talking bollocks and stroking each others egos that they do something special with unicorn dust.

5000 chinamen do the same thing day in day out , and often to a much higher standard, that alone should say this show show should make your bullshitometer explode.

Nice finishes and all that but lipstick on a pig or niche pig springs to mind.

ART? Its a bicycle, no

If you know Tom @ Demon then that interview with him is Tom through and through. There's no front he's just such a straight, dedicated, nice guy. I think my favorite bit is:

BIKERUMOR: So given your process, how do you get your lug points to match on the back of the headtube?

TOM: I think it’s about a quarter of a mill off.

BIKERUMOR: How are you living with yourself?

TOM: I know.

Which pretty much sums him up.
I'll tell you where your £4k goes - one guy in a workshop on his own spending days hand finishing parts.

You dont see many hand made frames coming out of China with head tube Lugs like this:

[img] [/img]

And I bet the don't start again if a frame is more than 0.2mm out of alignment. That is the different.

5000 chinamen do the same thing day in day out , and often to a much higher standard, that alone should say this show show should make your bullshitometer explode.

'Chinamen'? Could we perhaps use 'Chinese people' instead, as I'm sure there are many women working in that industry, and personally, I think 'chinamen' is a little outdated and possibly offensive. I think you otherwise have a fair point to make though.

The 'difference' I suppose is in having a frame made exactly to your own specifications, where you have personally been involved in it's conception, design and construction to a greater degree than a normal off the peg frame. Is it 'worth it'? I think that's something only the customer can decide. I've been tempted by custom frames, but then always end up thinking that something that's readily available in a shop, which can be bought with the minimum of fuss, for a lot less money, is the preferable option. I can see the appeal to those who want something a bit 'special' though. The same as you could go to IKEA/etc for a bit of furniture, or have someone make you something/make it yourself. Nothing wrong with that if you can afford it. I think pretending it's somehow much better than a standard bike frame is a bit silly though.

clodhopper - Member

'Chinamen'? Could we perhaps use 'Chinese people' instead, as I'm sure there are many women working in that industry,

Also children.

And to be fair - there's probably a lot of non-Chinese people working in these factories too

Yep, Cambodian 3 year olds have superior dexterity to Chinese these days!

You dont see many hand made frames coming out of China with head tube Lugs like this:
And I bet the don't start again if a frame is more than 0.2mm out of alignment. That is the different.

*yes if it's miles out of whack the ride will suffer but fractions of a mm while an admirable aim probably won't be felt by your average STWer

<edit> I'm specifically talking about 4k custom vs 1-2K custom frames, not custom v cheap bog standard frame. I can def see the appeal of a custom frame.

So we are actually talking about appearance rather than performance?

If you want to give me 4k for 4lbs of steel I'll stroke a lot more than your ego 😉

njee20 - Member
Yep, Cambodian 3 year olds have superior dexterity to Chinese these days!

Yep - nothing to do with cost at all

Being an engineer who in the past worked in the bike industry, The Sturdy stuff looks excellent, I feel you can often get better service from the smaller manufacturers.
Some people build bikes because they like doing it some do it to make money

Some people build bikes because they like doing it some do it to make money

😀

I'd imagine it's probably not the most lucrative career.....

Having worked on a stand there with a mate (not a builder but he used to have a stand). I can say that most of the guys who display there haven't slept for a week finishing builds for the show, as one man bands they usually design and build their own stands to display on, carting them into the venue and constructing (and in the case of field on their first year then finishing off the painting of the stand).

They then need to stand around for 8-9 hours each day being the perfect PR guy/or girl for the their brand.

It's not tiring, it's bloody exhausting. An example from a few years ago being Tom of Donohou asking me to man the stand for a bit just so he could have a toilet break for the first time that day. Then after 3 days of this, they get to tear it all down and pack it away again before travelling home.

Yeah, perhaps you didn't get the red carpet you expected, no one is perfect and I'm pretty certain no one there violates rule 1 on a regular basis.

So give them all a break!

Personally I found that framebuilders were happy to talk to me for as long as I wanted! Even the TBikes chap when I was questioning things like rock strike potential or the limited gearing options currently available.

I went to the show just to peer at nice bikes, not to buy, but the Cotic prototype... It's a pity I'm still in 26" land.. maybe I can buy a 26 rocket frame

I'm not far from that Sturdy place, I've heard a few people say he makes very nice stuff. If I remember correctly,welshfarmer ( think it was him ) has a mate who just had one built or is having one built, and was impressed with it.

You remember correctly. I have seem pictures on facebook, a thing of beauty. The Sturdy not welshfarmer.

TBH I think if I went to a custom frame show, the most offputting thing would be a slick professional businessman. If money allows there's a titanium long travel 29er in my future, and I want it to be built by someone with a tramp beard and no social skills, it's part of the appeal.

The 'difference' I suppose is in having a frame made exactly to your own specifications, where you have personally been involved in it's conception, design and construction to a greater degree than a normal off the peg frame.

The problem with this is that framebuilders on the whole don't like to be labelled as 'welders' simply building bikes to someone else's design/spec. You'll find that in a framebuilder's early career they'll be much more accommodating, scared to say no to any work coming their way. Over time they will develop their own style and will find it easier to say no to people.

Over the weekend at the Bespoked show I talked to literally hundreds of people. It's hard to give time to everyone and I find you do have to prioritise time spent. You get pretty good at identifying early on in a conversation whether the person you're speaking to just wants to chat (which is fine) or is asking questions because they might be in the market for a new bike. I try to give everyone as much time as I can as we've sold bikes 2 or 3 years down the line as a result of chatting to people at shows who weren't in the market at the time but appreciated the chat.

'Chinamen'? Could we perhaps use 'Chinese people' instead,

Use any you like , your well aware of where it was going.

If i look at what I got from an american supposed custom builder with reasonable reputation compared to what I now ride from its far eastern origin, I kinow where my money is headed.

You dont see many hand made frames coming out of China with head tube Lugs like this:

Thankfully! because that's everyone's cup of tea isn't it?

Art appeals to certain people

Maybe in Taiwan they all get round the one PC in the factory and sit blowing smoke up the european and americans arse's saying all hail western bike builders they is awesum...look look they have had a show, is there anything worth copying.

one_happy_hippy - Member

And I bet the don't start again if a frame is more than 0.2mm out of alignment. That is the different.

Whilst I admire this attitude, over-tolerancing is a sure-fire way of adding costs to parts for no benefit.

Those lugs on the other hand are fantastic!!

I want it to be built by someone with a tramp beard and no social skills

Which one of the trail fairies has started building frames then? Do they start by making a scale model out of Jaffa Cake boxes?

Cooper? Isn't he dead?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_Cooper_(bicycle_framebuilder)

tramp beard and no social skills, it's part of the appeal.

Yeah he was there. I made a compliment on the name of his bike having a certain cool ring to it.. He just stared at me and I thought he wanted to kill me.
Nice bloke though.

stevenmenmuir - Member

Which one of the trail fairies has started building frames then?

Alister's a natural. I'd be sorted, except I can't grow a beard, not manly enough.

Those lugs on the other hand are fantastic!!

But fairly pointless when you could just TIG weld the tubes instead. £4k for a steel frame give me a break, should be more like £1200-1800.

Interesting thread. Only been to one proper bike show, several years ago.

Went to say hello to the proprietors of a well know MTB mag and forum *ahem* and was completely blanked. They did look a bit hungover though.

Made it clear to a well known expensive bike frame producer that I was only looking out of curiosity and ended up having a great chat about riding, what I should/could be looking for in a bike, and what the riding was like near their base which is near my outlaws.

Over the road, the over staffed stand of a well known boutique bike shop completely blanked me as well.

Cy from Cotic was friendly, and Nick Craig lived up to his billing as being the nicest man in sport, asking me to wave next time I saw him on a training ride and he would wave back.

I'd imagine it's probably not the most lucrative career.....

Although if you're charging £4k a frame I'd imagine that you wouldn't be short of a penny. 😆

£4k for a steel frame give me a break, should be more like £1200-1800

I'm not sure even Rob English charges that much, and his bikes really are stunning.

Although if you're charging £4k a frame I'd imagine that you wouldn't be short of a penny.

Depends, I'm guessing there's a fair number of hours put into them (and all those hours are costing overheads).

I'd suggest your paying £4k for a heavily inefficient process or if you are in sales 'handcrafted, bespoke, with exacting attention to detail' :lol:.

Depends, I'm guessing there's a fair number of hours put into them

This.
Just say you wanted to make a good living doing something you love - except there is a lot of competition. You'd have to carve a niche as a producer of something pretty damn special if you want to charge over and above the going rate.
Those lugs, and the finished frames (I urge you to take a look at them) would take dozens and dozens of hours of graft to get right.
Keeping it simple, a good tattoo 'artist' will charge you around £80-£150 per hour for something that loosely speaking should last you a lifetime.
A 4K frame would equate to £50 per hour for 2 normal working weeks (40 hours per week) - not including ANY overheads. End result should be something stunning that potentially lasts you a lifetime.

Horses for courses, completely depends where your values lie.
For me, anyone at the top of their craft and creating bespoke wonders deserves to be well remunerated.

Falcao earned £22m for keeping the bench warm at various football clubs over the last 4 years. A net return of 4 goals.

I think that alone makes a £4K frame rude not to buy.
Makes the other custom £1500 frames seem a true bargain in that context eh?

Keeping it simple, a good tattoo 'artist' will charge you around £80-£150 per hour for something that loosely speaking should last you a lifetime.
A 4K frame would equate to £50 per hour for 2 normal working weeks (40 hours per week) - not including ANY overheads

And just think of some of the jumped up tits in white collar jobs who think that rate of pay is acceptable for the services that [i]they[/i] offer..

Leave the Jr Docs out of this!

I wonder if bartyp was there.

Well put slimjim. I'm glad there are people out there creating this stuff,be it bikes, watches, cars, motorbikes or trousers. who's to say that the value of the frame won't appreciate too.

[i]I wonder if bartyp was there. [/i]

😀

£4000 does sound like alot to me

[img] [/img]

This is a Mercian King of Mercier fully custom in 853 is £1000 plus VAT (less in other Reynolds tubes)

[img] [/img]

I think this their most expensive frame. Vincitore £1435 plus VAT

Now you may like the styling but it's hard to imagine what could cost over twice as much as this.

PS I'm sure even a socially competent person can forget who they are talking to after a day of talking to strangers

PS I'm sure even a socially competent person can forget who they are talking to after a day of talking to [s]strangers[/s] socially inept, borderline autistic,STW dwelling, short contract I.T managers.And Al.