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I'm wondering whether to bother with the faff...?
i'll never use tubes again. love tubeless but wont use the tape conversion kit only tubeless rims. thats part of why i got ride of my hope enduro wheels and bought some easton havens
Tubless curious is as far as I've gone.
The faff of tubes is definitely not worth it.
Likewise, been tubeless-curious for a while. Seems like a good idea, then every time I'm out with someone running tubeless we end up with a burping incident - "which doesn't usually happen" of course
dont run low presures, just run the pressue you'd use with tubes and burping is a thing of the past (thats what i found)
Well, its no longer the hot topic it once was since the choice of three different wheel sizes arrived
I prefer a less 'squirmy' tyre so re-fitted tubes for summer
Tubeless for me.
After puncturing on nearly every stage at every enduro race this year I switched.
No faff converting, had both done first time in a little over an hour.
Well worth the cost.
I don't have a choice with my wheelset although I am fairly curious and when its time for new wheels and / or new bike I'll be giving it a go.
Love tubeless, have run mine with ZTR rims and jollop for 2 years and they have been great and reliable on both bikes... Don't really love standing around /helping fellow non tubeless riders who don't get the tubeless thing whilst they mend another bloomin puncture...(Think Charlies singlespeed outing this year during the Gravel dash) With the right wheels and tyres its a doddle to do.
UST tyres on UST rims are brilliant. They just work. Everything else is a faff and will fail/let you down eventually, - my experience anyway.
I've been tubeless (ZTR rims and a mix of TLR and normal tyres) for a couple of years now. Judging by half the threads on here I've been very lucky though. Everything I've tried has gone up with a trackpump, the only burping I've had was with a shonky Schwalbe (proper tubeless one too), seen it seal plenty of punctures that would've burst a tube and the only proper blowout I've had destroyed the tyre so a tube would've also been done for. It takes maybe an extra 5-10mins to switch tyres for different conditions (which I only do maybe a couple of times a year), which I don't see as too much considering the benefits. As above though, just because you can run crazy low pressures doesn't mean you should.
I originally used XM819s and found them to be no less faff than any of my current (non-UST) rims other than initially taping them up. I use gorilla tape as the tape and it works better than tubeless tape IME. It used to be a faff but I'm getting the hang of it now and can usually get tyres to go up first time and stay up. I also don't experience burping but I run the same pressure as I would with tubes.
he faff of tubes is definitely not worth it.
+1
Only ever burped one tyre, and that was a 6 year old maxxis high roller and I landed pretty sideways accross some rutts, it bent the wheel too! Still held enough air to get to the bottom of the hill.
I'd say it's reached the point where I get itrritated with people having to stop to fix punctured tubes, faff at home isn't an excuse, you faff at home to make sure your gears work, your brakes work, your bearings aren't worn so that you don't have to faff on rides and hold them up. Why are tyres a special case? Once they're up (which 95% of the time is a 5 minute job, as quick as tubes) that's it for 6 months untill the sealent dries out and it becomes a game of puncture roulete Vs the 'effort' of putting another scoop in.
I don't have a choice with my wheelset although I am fairly curious and when its time for new wheels and / or new bike I'll be giving it a go.
Just wrap the inside of the rim with electrical tape. If at first it doesn't seal, add more tape, a whole roll is only about 30g so you're not adding any significant weight (compared to a 150g for a normal 26" tube). Either cut the valve from an old innertube (with a locking collar, not one with a smooth shaft) and fit it tightly, or buy some tubeless valves (they're almost as cheep as cheep tubes now). Pump it up with a trackpump (or handpump if you're feeling masochistic) to chekc it steats (it doesn't need to be airtight, the sealent will deal with small leaks). Deflate and pop it off again or add sealent through the valve and you're done.
I've done a bike in 20 minutes.
The only combination that sruggles is non-tubeless tyres on non-tubeless rims, as long as either the rim or the tyre was made for it then it'll work, and most of the time it works regardless I'd just avoid buying normal tyres if a bike ahs normal rims.
Tubeless all the way!
Along with dropper posts, tubeless is on my list of 'must haves' for any new bike. I've not bought a compete bike for years, but if I was in the market for one, the lack of tubeless ready wheels would be a factor.
FWIW I've run DTSwiss conversion kits which were close to lethal, with several blow outs at high speed on corners. Since then I've run various Mavic UST rims ranging from superlight XC ones, to 819 and 823 without issue, but found the 819 too narrow and 823 too heavy, so switched to Stans rims about 5-6 years back. I'll never go back to using tubes.
started using tubeless conversions years ago when I was working for Freeborn - the original importer of Stan's No Tubes to the UK
been using it ever since with great results and few if any problems
key is good preparation and careful setup. I stopped using the over priced "rim strips" as I found they often leaked, and if you ruined the tire by slashing it open on some glass (requiring an inner tube to get home) you'd end up with a sealant covered rim strip and a naked rim bed which could easily puncture your tube!
Found the best setup is to degrease the rim bed with iso alcohol, wrap several times in electrical tape, then twice with tubeless tape, prick a tiny hole for the valve, use a good tubeless valve core (the best have o-ring under lock ring) and be liberal with the sealant to ensure a good seal and long running life.
If you do ruin the tire (this has happened 3 times in 5 years to me) you can just remove the valve core, and install an inner tube with the rim bed protected by the tape
Used this setup on Mavic, Sun, Stan's and Roval rims, found Specialized Control 2-Bliss tires the best for easy setup
Still using Stan's sealant as I found it the best. Worst was Specialized or Bontrager.
That sounds like a lot of faff to me. Don't think I've ever spent 5 mins inflating a tube, even with a rubbish mini pump and they don't need changing every 6 months.Once they're up (which 95% of the time is a 5 minute job, as quick as tubes) that's it for 6 months untill the sealent dries out and it becomes a game of puncture roulete Vs the 'effort' of putting another scoop in.
tubeless, it's a no-brainer
it's a bit of faff initially but you get to do the faff at home in the dry not by the trailside on a dark wet night ride
amongst the crew I rode with 80% of the flats are experienced by the 20% still on tubes
I pulled an inch long nail out of my rear tyre the other day, no idea how long it had been there, I never noticed picking it up
I'm wondering whether to bother with the faff...?
What faff? The trying to change a tube whilst covered in cack in the p***ing rain?
Running tubes these days is a very selfish thing to do as it causes your tubeless riding buddies to stand around in the cold/wet/muddy/snowy/icy conditions waiting for you to sort yourself out.
Running tubes these days is a very selfish thing to do as it causes your tubeless riding buddies to stand around in the cold/wet/muddy/snowy/icy conditions waiting for you to sort yourself out.
on the other hand we have experienced more than one extra pint due to coming out of the pub and a tuber finding a flat, we leave them to it and go back in.
LUST UST tyres on standard DT Swiss rims working perfect for me. The combination of beefier sidewalls and low but not silly low pressures keeps them burp free. Goes up easy with the track pump also.
I have them on the rear of both my bikes after getting sick of pinch flats. Still tubes on the front but will probably go UST when the tyres wear out - but front tyres never do !
lol @ mattjg - I assume they also pay for the round (in view of the inconvenience & all that).
No punctures last year using Panaracer Flataway tape with tubes. Easy to swap tyres over too.
But being curious I switched to Bontrager Rhythm tubeless (UST compatible system) and the same tyres just feel so much better.
It's lighter so that's a lot to do with it of course.
no their fingers always seem to be too cold to open their wallets
Re pressures: is it still weight (in stone) times 2 then +1 for rear, -1 for front? PSI of course.
Tubeless all the way for me. Never burped a tyre, never had punctures that didn't seal....but I have slashed 2 tyres in the last 4 weeks though. Bad luck probably, but both were at really bad times. 1 was on a perfectly (up till that point) timed ride before a kids pick-up and the other was in a race. That 2nd slash was probably touch and go for a seal as it didn't deflate immediately, just sprayed jizz out in a catherine wheel-style fashion, all over me, and no doubt the rider behind (apologies!) as I tried to ride it off. That lasted about 150m, then it was flat.
Overall it's better.
there's a formula on the Stans site for it, I use that reduced by a couple of psi
Sceptical when I switched a couple of back but definitely won me over, not flatted since.
Considering it on the road bike when it's new wheels time...
mattjg: Ta, it's here - http://www.notubes.com/help/tirepressure.aspx obviously in pounds as the US don't use stones.
Maybe its just this pair of Nobby Nic SS TLR's that have defeated me then. Must admit I've no problems with Ralphs or Bonty Mud X on AC's or Crests, but I have to go through the 48hr tube-in/tube-out 2 x CO2 process with the TLRs which has just frustrated me.
That sounds like a lot of faff to me. Don't think I've ever spent 5 mins inflating a tube, even with a rubbish mini pump and they don't need changing every 6 months.
It's the same steps, you just fit a valve rather than a tube, and you don't have to 'faff' with half inflating tubes, messing about trying not to pinch it as you get the tyre seated, etc, etc. OK that's slightly pedantic, but it's certainly less faff than installing a tube in a new bike, then having to do it again every few rides.
And have you ever gone 6 months without puncturing a tube? That's stretching credibility more than me saying tubeless isn't more faff.
Tubes for me at the moment.
Tend to swap tyres and the cost/faff of changing them when tubless is hideous.
I've not had a puncture in over 3000 miles.
everything tubeless, including both roadies.
Some tyres are sods though. Easiest for me are specialized and bonty's. Just get them off the packaging, put them on and inflate with a track pump. No need for washing up liquid, tubes in/out, ghetto coke bottles etc. Perfect.
Unless you use proper UST tyres and rims, I honestly wouldn't bother.
I converted Mavic 521's with a stans kit, and tubeless ready butcher tyre - all as per instructions, various pressures, and I just could not stop the front burping, as soon as it got steep/rocky it just shat itself and nearly threw me off a good few times. Stuck a tube in, no worries since.
Now, those kits aren't worth it. Tried them once with mavic 719s, and no joy. Swapped to tubeless ready rims and all fine since.
my group doesn't seem to get many punctures, lots of smashed mechs, but not many punctures, certainly, all the annoying* punctures 'we' get are tubeless failures**. Those few 'tubed' punctures we get don't seem to cause any hassle beyond stopping for a few minutes and a chat+snack+photo.
a few of us have given up on tubeless as they found their valves get bunged up.
(*those that mean you all stand around for ages, before eventually giving up and going home)
(**small hole, jizz everywhere, reassurances that it'll definitely seal in a moment)
i'm not anti-tubeless, i even made my own ghetto-inflator-bomb, which is great fun to use, but i've got tubes in at the moment, and haven't had a puncture for chuffing ages.
Yak - MemberNow, those kits aren't worth it. Tried them once with mavic 719s, and no joy. Swapped to tubeless ready rims and all fine since.
i really will consider tubeless ready rims the next time i've got £300 lying around that i can spare for new wheels.
ahwiles - Member ...you all stand around for ages, before eventually giving up and going home
small hole, jizz everywhere
I think you have the wrong forum... 😯 😀
I only have one bike, which is my commuter, MTB, sportive machine, etc... That means I change the tyres quite regularly. So tubes for me.
Also I'm quite lucky with punctures, but when they happen - I've mastered the repair procedure, it's a muscle memory thing now! LOL
I've never had a pinch flat, and I run quite low pressures: 22-25 PSI front, 25-30 back (depending of the conditions and terrain).
Funny thing is when I went for a ride on rocky tracks near Princetown in Dartmoor with two friends, who were both running tubeless, we had 3 punctures in between all of us. I didn't have any. 
Luckily I had 2 spare innertubes in my backpack... 🙄
Kryton57 - MemberI think you have the wrong forum...
you mean this [u]isn't[/u] doggingtrackworld ?
I'd never go back to tubes. It made such a huge difference on the Patriot with its 2.3" tyres that I can't imagine struggling around with the higher rolling resistance.
I've only ever had one suspected burp in about 2009 ish - finished an XC race and discovered I had a pretty soft tyre. Only had one puncture that required a tube (it was the second big puncture in a few hundred yards, glass on cyclepath I think) and that was no worse than changing a tube normally.
Seems like modern tyres are better designed for it too - Maxxis ignitors have lovely stiff sidewalls which allow me to go down to 20-25psi fine. Sealed immediately too.
I use Stans strips and Stans sealant, and non tubeless tyres. However I don't use my trailrakers any more since I was warned not to. One bike has Stans rims, these will go up with a track pump; one uses Mavic 317s and needs CO2; the Patriot has Sunn Singletrack rims that also need CO2.
im sticking to tubes. also naff all wrong with my V brakes, rigid seatpost, narrow bars, long stem and 26" wheels thankyou very much.
tubeless every time. Cant see a downside (based on my experience). I'm finding it cheaper, less faff, zero punctures (over 2.5 yrs or more I cant remember). Never had issues setting tubeless up, regardless of proper kit or ghetto, type of rim or tyre etc. Might have got lucky but it gets the thumbs up from me and now ive converted most of my mates as I was getting bored with constant hanging around for puncture repairs
95% of the time tubeless is ace.
However there's a lot of flinty chalk round my way and when you tear the sidewall of your three day old, £50 tyres then you start to wonder why sidewalls aren't thicker to compensate.
My Spesh Purgatory was the latest victim at the weekend, although I've been able to rescue it with some fine fishing line and a needle. Killing two brand new Conti Black Chillis last year was a spectacular low point.
Unless you use proper UST tyres and rims, I honestly wouldn't bother.
That's a bit of a worry. I've been running UST tyres/rims for years with zero problems, but now my new bike has Tubeless ready rims/tyres (Spesh Enduro with Roval Fatties and Spesh tyres). Should I be sticking with the tubes or is it going to work tubeless without dicking? I was presuming it would be okay tubeless, but maybe I've been spoilt with UST in the past.
Tubeless in 5 of the 8 the off road wheels I posess, sealant in the tubes of those that won't go tubeless. A couple of the tubeless wheels took several rides before they stopped losing pressure over a few days.
However there's a lot of flinty chalk round my way and when you tear the sidewall of your three day old, £50 tyres then you start to wonder why sidewalls aren't thicker to compensate.
They are, on UST tyres, which weigh more (but comparable to a normal tyre and tube. Trouble is that if you tear a sidewall on a normal tyre it still gets wrecked anyway!
Unless you use proper UST tyres and rims, I honestly wouldn't bother.
That's a bit of a worry. I've been running UST tyres/rims for years with zero problems, but now my new bike has Tubeless ready rims/tyres (Spesh Enduro with Roval Fatties and Spesh tyres)
That's utter bobbins. I had some really early UST Crossmax in 2001 (there was one tyre choice - green Michelin Wildgrippers), then moved to an 'Eclipse' conversion to run normal tyres on UST, then did Stan's with rim strips, then Stan's/Roval/Light Bicycle without strips, just using tape, and various tyres.
The latter is the best, the biggest problem at the moment is the moveable feast that is bead seat diameters. A few years ago when there was UST and non-UST it was much easier. You got to learn which brands worked well (Michelin and Schwalbe particularly), and everything was harmonious. Then Tubeless Ready came along, Stan's made rims slightly bigger, to aid sealing, Schwalbe made tyres slightly smaller, to aid sealing, and you ended up with a bit of a mess of "these really should work together, but don't, whilst the old 'incompatible' combination worked flawlessly".
Still, things seem to have settled back down again now, most high end tyres are tubeless ready, and work very well on virtually any rim with a turn or three of Gorilla tape.
i really will consider tubeless ready rims the next time i've got £300 lying around that i can spare for new wheels.
All I meant was that imo the conversions didn't work that well and at the point of new wheels, I chose tubeless ready rims so there was only a small extra cost over choosing a non-tubeless ready rim. Just look at the superstar website and there are lots of reasonably priced tubeless ready wheelsets, alongside lots of non-tubeless ready reasonably priced wheelsets.
If I was still running non-tubeless ready rims, I would run tubes.
its good. its a worry for the first few months as your worried about getting stuck. then you see all the other folks running tubes. ive ended up giving most of my tubes away to folkes that have flatted 2+ times on rides!
It's just not as satisfying to chuck a pot of tyre-jizz into the branches of a trail side tree, so will stick with tubes
I've always found punctures easy to deal with on tubeless tyres with the Panaracer style needle/rubber plug system. Don't even bother running sealant in UST tyres for that reason. Anyone else use that system?
That's utter bobbins.
Good, so I will go tubeless in that case. Definitely prefer it to tubes.
I've always found punctures easy to deal with on tubeless tyres with the Panaracer style needle/rubber plug system. Don't even bother running sealant in UST tyres for that reason. Anyone else use that system?
I've not used the little 'worm' puncture repairs for years, but yes, they are good. Again, used to be the only option, other than tube repair patches and a suitable supplementary adhesive!
That said I'd far rather run a tubeless ready tyre with sealant, than a UST one without. Lighter and even less puncture prone.
Cool, so what is the sealant of choice these days? I'll be running Spesh Butcher/Slaughter combo.
Knowing your history of decision making Kryton I would expect this thread to last for a few years . First you need to decide whether to go tubeless or not , then we will have a what sealant debate followed by a what valves debate followed by a what tyre debate followed by a what pressure should I run them at debate followed by a I've decided to stick with tubes thread by which time the MTB world will be dominated by tubular set ups . 😆
I use Stans and it works fine, but have no idea if other sealants are better or worse.
I've not added glitter though, so don't know if there is better big-hole performance with glitter.
Tubeless road and MTB.
Noticed my front on the road bike was a little soft the morning after a wet ride on crappy lanes. Pulled three flints out of it, one went "psssst" for a bit then sealed. 100% sure I'd have been fighting tubes in the rain without the sealant.
Ramsey Neil - Member
Knowing your history of decision making Kryton I would expect this thread to last for a few years . First you need to decide whether to go tubeless or not , then we will have a what sealant debate followed by a what valves debate followed by a what tyre debate followed by a what pressure should I run them at debate followed by a I've decided to stick with tubes thread by which time the MTB world will be dominated by tubular set ups .
😀
I'll have you know I'm already tubeless. I've been fighting with NN TLR's on one of the bikes though, and I'm currently deciding whether the new 29er should go tubless or not bother, as I rode it with tubes yesterday and it was most excellent. Riding in forest singletrack I definately rate the " no puntures" issue.
But the answer is that I guess I've just had a bad experience with those tyres so will persevere and go tubeless on the 29er this weekend...
Cool, so what is the sealant of choice these days? I'll be running Spesh Butcher/Slaughter combo.
Stan's, although I believe a number of people rate Joe's as cheaper.
Stans or Joes.
Don't bother with Caffelatex as it stains everything and turns to rubber within a few days. The Fenwicks stuff is absolutely awful too and stubbornly refuses to plug all but the smallest of holes.
The Specialized stuff isn't bad at a pinch.
Whats the score on adding glitter? Worth bothering?
I still run tubeless, but only because I can get away with lighter tyres, but not as good as running Minion Dual Ply's and tubes. I had zero punctures for 2 years with the Dual Ply's but my Tubeless set up punctures once every 3 months or so and they have never resealed!!!! I ALWAYS have to put a new DH heavy tube in to get me home. Running DT Swiss TR rims, Maxis Minion TR tyres and Stans fluid.
Other problems
1) The sealant vanishes after 3 months, where does it go, it beats me?
2) Rear tyre won't hold pressure, needs pumping up before each ride.
3) Rear rim gets damaged more.
4) Valves get gummed up.
On the plus side, they do grip like shit to a blanket compared to when they have a tube in and I can run SP tyres without pinch flatting. I've never had one burp, it just punctures on a sharp rock tearing the tyre or once when the tyre was a bit soft the rim went through it and in effect pinch flatted the tyre, WTF!!!
Wonder if pro-core will be any better 🙂
I will try the glitter thing at the next top up. Might have made the difference to the tyre slash at the last xc rampage, as that one nearly sealed with the stans alone.
So what glitter for stans? 😉
Whats the score on adding glitter? Worth bothering?[/quoteNo.
1) The sealant vanishes after 3 months, where does it go, it beats me?
2) Rear tyre won't hold pressure, needs pumping up before each ride.
That's thin sidewalls for you. The latex is mostly water so it evaporates out of the carcass if there isn't much rubber on the inside. Light tyres tend to be mostly canvas with only a little rubber and are hence quite porous and you see bubbles coming out all over as you seal. These need a ride or two to become stable.
Again, the ignitors have more rubber and consequently were airtight immediately, and have stayed up.
Whats the score on adding glitter? Worth bothering?
Depends if you want to look all pretty on your ride. If you accessorise with a sequinned Camelbak and some sparkly shoes then you'd absolutely pull it off.
Tubeless , even the ghetto way is a no brainer .Nowt worse then a tiny thorn ruining a ride .
Stan's, although I believe a number of people rate Joe's as cheaper.
Good old Stan's it is then (sans glitter!) thanks. I'll try to get it done this weekend and be back running tubeless again. I'll be sure to whinge if it doesn't work out 😉
I will still carry a Panaracer puncture kit around for peace of mind. I've plugged some pretty big holes with those successfully. Saves all the hassle of needing to fit an emergency tube if the sealant fails to seal a large puncture.
I'm really not sure about tubeless. I converted about 18 months ago as I had had enough of the thorn punctures (averaging about one every other ride, and I ride almost every day). I then had a puncture-free year, which was ace, but since then I have had a good few rides terminated prematurely by tyres ripped by flints badly enough that even a whole can of anchovies won't fix them. I don't know why, still riding in the same places (Chilterns) and with the same (but renewed) Bonty Mud tyres. I suppose the moral of the story, for me anyway, is that you get less punctures with tubeless but, when you do get them, they can be terminal. And yes, I know I could put a tube in to get me home, but when it's cold, raining, getting dark, the tyre is generously coated in mud and excrement and the inside of it is swimming in latex and infested with old thorns I would rather walk 👿
Loving tubeless (Hans Dampfson ZTR Crests) with no issues to date. Took about 40 minutes for the first tyre whilst I learnt about how much soapy water to use and how much pressure to get it to pop. The second tyre took 5 minutes.
And yes, I know I could put a tube in to get me home, but when it's cold, raining, getting dark, the tyre is generously coated in mud and excrement and the inside of it is swimming in latex and infested with old thorns I would rather walk
Apart from the latex, which doesn't really change anything, how is that scenario different with tubes? You cut a tyre that badly you still get a flat. I'm not aware that tubes change the weather or trail conditions!?
For the record, ZTR Olympics, Stans rim strips and Schwalbe tyres fo on without soap, and with a simple track pump. They stay up too, for bout 6 months
eddiebaby - Member
Took about 40 minutes for the first tyre whilst I learnt about how much soapy water to use and how much pressure to get it to pop. The second tyre took 5 minutes.
I find neat Fairy Liquid works very well, so well in fact you don't need sealant, if you're feeling lucky 🙂
For the record, ZTR Olympics, Stans rim strips and Schwalbe tyres fo on without soap, and with a simple track pump. They stay up too, for bout 6 months
When I used Olympics and rim strips my experience was similar. I came to the conclusion that the much lauded 'rim well' is actually a barrier to inflation, as a tight tyre won't 'pop' out of it without sufficient air flow, and a baggy tyre is too loose in the well, so air comes out under the beads. I needed several turns of tape on my LB rims to seal, I bought some 10mm wide foam draught excluder strip, I reckon if I put that in the well, then a turn of tape, tyres will go on/up more easily.
njee20 - Member
And yes, I know I could put a tube in to get me home, but when it's cold, raining, getting dark, the tyre is generously coated in mud and excrement and the inside of it is swimming in latex and infested with old thorns I would rather walkApart from the latex, which doesn't really change anything, how is that scenario different with tubes? You cut a tyre that badly you still get a flat. I'm not aware that tubes change the weather or trail conditions!?
Well you have a whole load of thorns to prise out before you can install the tube. And you have to take the valve out 😆
Just thinkinng on it.... is there any reason why injecting sealant into a tube wouldn't work just as well?
I'd not do tubeless without proper rims (or really good rim strips like the DT rim-specific ones), tried that, it never really worked right for me. But with proper TLR or UST rims, I'm always tubeless. Since I stopped using shitey Nobby Nics I think I've had one tubeless flat in about 3 years, and that was totally my fault.
Occasionally it can be a faff- getting my Der Baron dh tyre on is always a fight- but generally not. And faff in the garage with a beer and some tunes on is better than faff up a hill in the rain
Just thinkinng on it.... is there any reason why injecting sealant into a tube wouldn't work just as well?
Nope, I've done it, and in tubs. There are plenty of products marketed for just that purpose. Weirdly, and I don't know why, tube sealants are much thicker and more viscous than the watery consistency of most (good) tyre sealants.
But you're still adding the weight of the tube to the system, and you're just as likely to pinch flat, which will overcome most sealants.
Do you run the Der Baron tubeless, NW?
Just got some shiny new DH wheels, they're tubed for now, but they're tubeless compatible. Am tempted.
Will need a new rear tyre though, my Kaiser Projekt is deformed, as only Conti tyres do.