[Closed] So Enve rims....

There is Mavic research which shows that the spoke tension has no effect on the lateral (side-to-side) stiffness of a rim once it's tight enough for the wheel not to de-tension.

What you do get with lower tensions is less radial stiffness, which gives you a bit more compliance and grip.

Laterally stiff, yet vertically compliant? Er, no. Spoke tension makes just as much difference to radial stiffness as it does to lateral stiffness. How on earth could it be otherwise - does the spoke know which direction the force is coming from?

Radialy the stiffness is given by the spokes in tension at the top of the wheel. You can't crush a wheel radialy, that's why arches are arch shaped! So A very siff rim lets you get huge side to side stiffness, but low enough spoke tension to allow it to deflect radialy.

Bit like low spoke count road wheels, they feel nice and comfortable, but are almost/just as stiff axialy as having a full 32/36 spokes.

Oh this thread just gets better and better. Firstly the hub doesn't hang on the spokes at the top of the wheel. Secondly a "stiff" rim is far stiffer vertically than laterally (relative to a less stiff rim) - at least that's the case for the majority of stiff rims, and certainly for those used in low spoke count road wheels. Hence one which is as laterally stiff as a conventional wheel will be a lot stiffer radially. I did already mention that low spoke tension has no effect on radial stiffness didn't I? In any case, a road wheel is far, far stiffer radially than a tyre, so decreasing the stiffness in that direction has no noticeable effect (apart from placebo).

I could probably have just pointed out that you contradict yourself by saying that you can't crush a wheel radially.

Er hang on, what planet are you on? Spending excessive amounts of money on bits and pieces is part of the hobby matey

Waddya mean 'part of the hobby' - for me mountain biking is [i]all[/i] about the shopping to the point where I no longer even build the parts up into a rideable form, it's enough for me just to know that I'm awesome enough to own a set of £750 rims.

Similarly, I've served my time, paid my dues and am entitled to read Privateer Magazine. Which probably explains why it's not a viable title.

Joking aside though, I think it's fine for people to spend a lot of dosh on components like these, but really quite foolhardy to actually use them, which is the mistake that Pinkbike clearly made...

😀

Me and my 6ft 2in 15 stone body have dealt my ENVEs some serious abuse and I can assure you they aren't just for show. They have held up just fine without any Pinkbike style failures. Failure of expensive kit is always going to be newsworthy, but it happens from time to time.

For all of their excellence, the quality of the King hubs, Sapim CX Ray spokes and Strada build quality probably contributes equally if not more than the rims to my positive views of the wheels.

shopping to the point where I no longer even build the parts up into a rideable form

Now that's shopping at ten tenths!

Furthermore, it's clearly pronounced "Envy" judging by some of the replies to this thread!

I don't think you can have anything other than admiration for those few brave riders who are willing to risk that much money on a set of wheels that they're going to repeatedly bash into rocks.

In modern mountain biking, the stakes are high, and they've just upped the ante!

I'm about to build up a set of these:

[url= http://www.carbonality.com/carbon-bike-rims/carbon-mtb-rim.html ]Carbon DH rim[/url]

Big deep 30mm section, 33mm external, 24mm internal, 440g so comparable with any other decent AM rim but should be much stiffer.

Have ridden on ENVE on a mate's bike and they are definitely very, very good when you are pushing it hard, but price is hard to justify, so I reckon the above are worth a punt at £105 a pop and pretty similar spec....... 🙂

Now that's shopping at ten tenths!

I only ever shop at eleven tenths, anything else is just half-arsed amateurism and barely worth clicking on 'Buy' for. Likewise, I turn my nose up at discounted componentry and seek out the highest online price.

One last thought, if you can afford a set of Enve rims, you can also run to a set of spare wheels so you don't risk denting your investment.

DCCL 4 1? [url= http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/seven_hundred_and_fifty ]8O[/url]

Late on but... What 5 year no quibble or questions asked warranty? Enve have no warranty against damage and a crash replacement rim is £450.

may I interrupt here with a pointer towards Derby carbon rims..£400 for a pair delivered to the UK in 40mm (external) 34mminternal on trend 27.5 guise. DH rated and £125 crash replacement (for one rim.

okay, 'American labour'.. but an extra £550 worth, methinks not.

I'm having nightmares about some recent trips that ended late in the day over west where a rim failing like that would have left me carrying a 34lb bike down a rocky track for about 3 miles before reaching Achnashellach. Jeez, you couldn't even push the thing!

O.K. the guy continued to ride it but it still failed. If this happens deep into a big ride it kind of spoils the whole thing for me.. just hoping I don't thwack it.

I liked the idea of trying these rims at some point but I'm going to give them a miss.

Derby rims are made by light bicycle

martinxyz - Member

I'm having nightmares about some recent trips that ended late in the day over west where a rim failing like that would have left me carrying a 34lb bike down a rocky track for about 3 miles before reaching Achnashellach. Jeez, you couldn't even push the thing!

So you'll stick to those aluminium rims that never ever break?

bending is different to shattering though...

And I feel I need to say this...

£750 a rim!!!! All the bikes and parts I own aren't worth much more than that...

Why did this thread generate so much ire and antagonism and why was it generally all coming from those people who disagree with the idea that a set of rims could retail for £1500?

I earn enough to afford them. I love riding them and with 25 years of experience and a pretty decent level of ability I think I'm in a good position to judge their merits. No I don't think they are 10 times better than something that costs 10 times less but I really don't care. I earned it and it's up to me how I spend it.

So why the ire?

Where's all the ire and antagonism?

Where's all the ire and antagonism?

I was going to ask that. I think there's a bit of bemusement, but ire seems a bit strong.

geetee1972 - Member
Why did this thread generate so much ire and antagonism and why was it generally all coming from those people who disagree with the idea that a set of rims could retail for £1500?

I earn enough to afford them. I love riding them and with 25 years of experience and a pretty decent level of ability I think I'm in a good position to judge their merits. No I don't think they are 10 times better than something that costs 10 times less but I really don't care. I earned it and it's up to me how I spend it.

So why the ire?

I say good luck to you. I still think they're extraordinarily expensive relative to their direct competition, and that's where I'd struggle to justify them.

I trashed my 29er flow ex rear rim and replaced it with an Enve, the difference is unreal.

Firstly the hub doesn't hang on the spokes at the top of the wheel. Secondly a "stiff" rim is far stiffer vertically than laterally (relative to a less stiff rim) - at least that's the case for the majority of stiff rims, and certainly for those used in low spoke count road wheels. Hence one which is as laterally stiff as a conventional wheel will be a lot stiffer radially. I did already mention that low spoke tension has no effect on radial stiffness didn't I? In any case, a road wheel is far, far stiffer radially than a tyre, so decreasing the stiffness in that direction has no noticeable effect (apart from placebo).

I could probably have just pointed out that you contradict yourself by saying that you can't crush a wheel radially.

I didn't contradict myself, I said the spokes deform to allow the wheel to deform radialy. And I never said it was stiffer axialy than radialy, I said you could imporve the radial stiffness and reduce it axialy.

And the hub definately 'hangs' off the top spokes as you put it, because they're certainly not working in copression at the bottom are they!

Their logic is that the spokes only need to be tight enough that the unloaded spoke at any point is still in tension. The stiffer the rim, the easier this is to achieve as the rim doesn't deflect, hence why they were using really low tesnions with the Enve rims. So in theory when Peaty/Minnar/Bryceland lands a big jump/hits a rock the load is taken evenly through the spokes in the top half and the wheel and the bottom half unloads more evenly. Whereas a softer rim would deform localy causing those spokes closes to the impact to come loose, meaning they have to be tighter to start with.

I say good luck to you. I still think they're extraordinarily expensive relative to their direct competition, and that's where I'd struggle to justify them.

I earn enough to afford them. I love riding them and with 25 years of experience and a pretty decent level of ability I think I'm in a good position to judge their merits.

Surfmatt, is that you???

geetee1972 - Member

Why did this thread generate so much ire and antagonism and why was it generally all coming from those people who disagree with the idea that a set of rims could retail for £1500?

I earn enough to afford them. I love riding them and with 25 years of experience and a pretty decent level of ability I think I'm in a good position to judge their merits. No I don't think they are 10 times better than something that costs 10 times less but I really don't care. I earned it and it's up to me how I spend it.

So why the ire?

well, I would say that this sounds like rather a foolish response. Yes you earn your money and you have the right to spend it how you want. But I think we need to put some common sense into the equation. There is NOTHING that makes these rims worth that price. With probably 15quids worth of material in them you you need to start thinking about whether these products are actually worth the money you are paying. Personally I think you are being downright ripped off and foolish for not realizing it. Of course if you want to believe the marketing BS and think you ride like superman after you bought them then that's bully for you. But at the end of the day do you not feel stupid for buying something that is really worth bugger all?

Why did this thread generate so much ire and antagonism and why was it generally all coming from those people who disagree with the idea that a set of rims could retail for £1500?

I think it's more to do with the purchase justification, owners suggesting they totally transform how a bike rides, etc.

When in reality they don't.

That's fine though, if people want nice, expensive kit, who cares - but they won't turn you into a riding god, just because you spunk a fortune on some rims.

Money - sensitive old topic ain't it!?

£750 for about a tenners worth of material does seem like a bit of a joke though. No amount of development time, manufacturing and order processing could possibly justify that mark-up!

I'm not criticising people for buying them though, if it makes you feel good and you enjoy riding on them then who gives a monkeys what anyone else thinks though eh?

No-one answered my earlier question in this thread though, and it was a genuine one - how is Enve pronounced? Env, Envy, Envay, Enveh? Someone please enlighten a rim ignoramous (oo-er) 😀

Of course if you want to believe the marketing BS and think you ride like superman after you bought them then that's bully for you

I've ridden behind him once, he's no slouch. Although he was on alloy rims at the time.

Exlusive brands have to have a disproportionately higher price tag to remain so.

In fact there is a known psychological aspect to eye watering pricing - it increases desirability in the eye of the purchaser.

To charge exhorbitant amounts of money for a set of rims isn't a rip off - it's marketeering.

We all want them - it's worked.

Enve rims = £750 each

This thread = priceless

I think the term is 'aspirational pricing'.

[img] [/img]

or?

[img] [/img]

Give or take a couple of hundred quid 😕

And the hub definately 'hangs' off the top spokes as you put it, because they're certainly not working in copression (sic) at the bottom are they!

Oh no they don't and oh yes they do. It's all about pre-tensioning meaning that the spokes at the bottom do indeed take some compressional force.

thisisnotaspoon - Member

5 years ago I thought the same of Stans Arch Vs En521. Stans are fragile, crack and cost 3x as much. A few pay rises down the road I'm in a position where I'm really not too botherd if lighter kit breaks in 18 months as I can afford to replace it. Maybe in a couole of years I'll think the same of the lightbikes rims, and by the time I'm 40, Enve (on the other hand, maybe not).

Stan's aren't that fragile - and a Flow rim is/was about 80-100g lighter than the EN521 for the same intended use, plus you were getting a tubeless ready rim too, and the premium was only an extra £30-40 or so.

There's a considerable difference between that and the Enves - the premium isn't £30-40 - it's £700. That's another world - and with competitor's full carbon wheelsets selling for around [url= http://www.bike-components.de/products/info/p35066_AM-Carbon-Disc-6-Loch-Laufradsatz-Modell-2013-.html ]1100[/url], £750 for one rim is way out there.

And the hub definately 'hangs' off the top spokes as you put it, because they're certainly not working in copression (sic) at the bottom are they!

Oh no they don't and oh yes they do. It's all about pre-tensioning meaning that the spokes at the bottom do indeed take some compressional force.

If something is under tension, it has to loose all that tension, then reverse to go into compression. Spokes do not do that. Also, there is nothing holding the nipple in from the tyre side, only tension. If the spoke were attempted to be put under compression, it would simply start moving through the hole in the rim toward the tyre.

[img] [/img]

"High spoke tension helps to balance the wheel when it is under load. The spoked structure will hardly move at all.
When the wheel is overloaded, the spokes under the most load get support by the neighboring spokes, but only with high spoke tension. Loose spokes can hardly support themselves, let alone their neighbors!
The higher the spoke tension, the more effectively the overload is distributed over several spokes.
If the wheel is momentarily radially overloaded, the uppermost two spokes are subject to extremely high tensile loads. Correct tension does not only allow the close neighbors, but all other spokes in the upper half of the wheel, to act as damping units."

So a stiff carbon rim may help higher tensions as well as spoke durability - or lower tensions due to less rim flex or higher resistance to radial overload. I'm not a wheelbuilder, I just remember the author of the above describing the way spokes tension and relax as a wheel rotates. I'd recall that as supporting the comment about a hub 'hanging' in a way, but a good lacing pattern and tension aims to reduce that so spoke fatigue is reduced. ie tensioned spokes can have a strength in compression but only as part of a near-rigid triangulated structure, that needs support from the opposite side.

You guys still going on about this? wowww...

If something is under tension, it has to loose all that tension, then reverse to go into compression. Spokes do not do that. Also, there is nothing holding the nipple in from the tyre side, only tension. If the spoke were attempted to be put under compression, it would simply start moving through the hole in the rim toward the tyre.

You're not right there.

But something in tension can still take a compressional force. It just lessens the tension. Read up on pre-tensioning.

Could they not just call them Ridicule rims? I suppose no one aspires to be made fun of though. What about tyres for these bad bois? Cheap tyres on highly expensive rims must be breaking some sort of code. What's the desired rubber for these?

tinas and nikk - try googling superposition of forces. A wheel is a pre-stressed structure, which allows parts which wouldn't normally be able to support a compressive force to do so. If you analyse the way a wheel works properly you'll see that under load the top spokes increase in tension is very little different to the increase in tension of the spokes all the way round the rest of the wheel, apart from those at the bottom which have a large decrease in tension (increase in compression). Hence the hub doesn't hang on the top spokes.

In what way not right? I don't build wheels so can't claim to be but doesn't that quote say the same thing, that the compression lessens the tension on one side, increases it on the opposite, ideally as little as possible as the wheel rotates?

Edit to add, aracer's last point, understood it's not the top pair alone the hub hangs off but a graded variance across the whole wheel.

My comment as not directed at you James. You posted whilst I was replying, hence my edit to include the quote of the post I was replying to.

got it.

I said the spokes deform to allow the wheel to deform radialy. And I never said it was stiffer axialy than radialy, I said you could imporve the radial stiffness and reduce it axialy.

You've clearly forgotten, let me remind you:

You can't crush a wheel radialy, that's why arches are arch shaped! So A very siff rim lets you get huge side to side stiffness, but low enough spoke tension to allow it to deflect radialy.

Their logic is that the spokes only need to be tight enough that the unloaded spoke at any point is still in tension. The stiffer the rim, the easier this is to achieve as the rim doesn't deflect, hence why they were using really low tesnions with the Enve rims. So in theory when Peaty/Minnar/Bryceland lands a big jump/hits a rock the load is taken evenly through the spokes in the top half and the wheel and the bottom half unloads more evenly. Whereas a softer rim would deform localy causing those spokes closes to the impact to come loose, meaning they have to be tighter to start with.

Apart from still having the bit about the wheel hanging off the top spokes that's not a bad explanation of why they can have lower spoke tension. However it that doesn't explain what advantage there is to lower spoke tension. The spokes will unload in just the same way no matter how much initial tension they have.

We all want them - it's worked

I don't, I'd be too worried about losing my friends and my mum disowning me if they found out how much I spent on a pair of rims.

Got to admit I'd be a bit embarrassed to be seen riding around on something quite so expensive. I'd have to de-badge them!

Edit: ... though just seen that six grand Intense Carbide in fresh goods... blimey, maybe I'm out of touch!

Laterally stiff, yet vertically compliant? Er, no. Spoke tension makes just as much difference to radial stiffness as it does to lateral stiffness. How on earth could it be otherwise - does the spoke know which direction the force is coming from?

Because the two sets of forces happen on different sides of the triangle, those having substantially different lengths and angles. A simple fag packet calculation will show that increasing the tension gains a lot more across the small side than the long side. High school maths.

[img] http://forums.massassi.net/vb3/attachment.php?attachmentid=20044&stc=1&d=1221665468 [/img]

£750 for about a tenners worth of material does seem like a bit of a joke though. No amount of development time, manufacturing and order processing could possibly justify that mark-up!

So do the people making this argument also believe that the same applies to £2500 carbon frames? What about the material costs for an aluminium frame which might only cost about 20% less?

My colleagues are horrified how much I've spent on bikes. I always get asked at the office how much my road bike cost. When I tell them it's around 2k euros they look shocked; I don't have the heart to tell them the MTB was far more expensive.

Enve rims are this experience just between cyclists. Either you want them, can afford them and buy them or you don't. If you don't want them or can't afford them, don't get them.

[img] [/img]

I've got those gold YT2020's. They're a perfectly good rim and instead of being boring old black, they're GOLD! That's all the bling I need.

Well if I could afford enve I would buy them....

Because the two sets of forces happen on different sides of the triangle, those having substantially different lengths and angles. A simple fag packet calculation will show that increasing the tension gains a lot more across the small side than the long side. High school maths.

Have you actually done the maths you say is so simple? Let me help you with it, I'll use some real numbers for an Ultegra hub and Open Pro rim:

horizontal spoke distance: 36.3
vertical spoke distance: 283
change in lateral stiffness due to change in spoke tension (from Mavic research): 0

change in radial stiffness = 283 / 36.3 * 0

I'll leave you to put those numbers into a calculator to see what difference it makes.

If you don't want them or can't afford them, don't get them.

What would we do without genius advice like this? Honestly, I was on the point of buying a set of Enve wheels that I didn't want and couldn't afford when I read this and was saved. Thank you and happy Friday 🙂

I've been in the lab doing some research, here are my findings

Enve rims are 26.54% more stifferer than some other rims

15mm through axles are 27.18% more stifferer than some other axles

tapered headsets are 28.95% more stifferer than some other headsets

142x12 is 26.77% stifferer than some other rear axles

That's a total of 109.44%. Wow.

Geetee as I'm the quoted person, I do indeed think the same applies to £2500 carbon frames. I feel that many bike parts are over-priced in all fairness. In the past I used to buy expensive frames and components (before having 3 dependants!) so I would never ridicule anyone for doing the same, as I said before, if it makes you feel good and you enjoy riding them then that's all that matters 🙂

So do the people making this argument also believe the same applies to £2500 carbon frames

Ere we go.... someone just bought a cf frame for 2500 and getting worried they might have been silly? Well anyway to answer that question for you yes. Same applies. Except there is more r&d and that the weight is almost a kg. So about 35 quids worth of material in it. Plus the quid for tooling and then there is the labour and overheads. Taiwanese labour being really quite cheap and certainly no more than 4 hours work. So work it outfor yourself. Carbon frame comes out at 200 smakers finished. That leavs 2300 of your cash to split between the remaining hand rubbers.

thestabiliser - you forgot to add in the 72.351% of statistics which are made up on the spot. That gives you a total of 183.832%. Roughly.

Oh, and all those quoting cost of raw materials, presumably none of you have ever bought an app or downloaded music from itunes? Or do you think those electrons are really expensive.

Mmmm, i'll factor it in.

the point being all this talk of marginal gains and optmized performance is 99% bollokth and the only reason to spend thousands on bikes is cos you want to, trying to justify it in terms of the performance that is absolutley 'critical' to 40in waisted biffers circling carparks is nonsense. Just admit it you want it cos it's shiny. And if you're daft enough to pay for it someone will happily sell it to you. If you can't afford it just be happy that someone can sell you something just as good (as far as you'll ever be able to tell) for a fraction of the price. As long as you're not selling your or anyone elses kidneys to fund it it's fair game.

That said even if i had the money I wouldn't buy them, cos i'm tight.

40in waisted biffers circling carparks

Like fat, wingless vultures. Sort of.

chief9000 - Member

Plus the quid for tooling

You think the tooling for a carbon frame costs a quid? Can I hire you to do some machining for me at this rate?

The second one might well cost only a few quid to make but the first one costs a fortune.

aracer - The change in stiffness is very small, not zero. You also seemed to miss the bit about Pythagoras at school, not sure what you're formula are, show your working.

The "vertically compliant by laterally stiff" thing is the butt of many jokes in the bicycle industry, but that's pretty much what a double-diamond frame is.

I'm out.

Northwind I thought that to start with, but then I re-read his post and gave him the benefit of the doubt that he meant 'quid' as in 'cash'

If not, then I'm second in the queue for his machining skills

Northwind I thought that to start with, but then I re-read his post and gave him the benefit of the doubt that he meant 'quid' as in 'cash'

i just read it as out and out sarcasm

Yep, could be that as well I guess compo! 😀

40in waisted biffers circling carparks

Like fat, wingless vultures. Sort of.

40in waisted biffers circling carparks

You see, descends into insult throwing again. Why be rude? Why be so insulting? Is your cock that small?

Besides the inference the having a 40" waist in some way relegates you to being a 'biffer', whatever that is but I pressume it means someone who is slow and unfit, has been show as not neccessarily true. You can be fit and fat. I should know. 😀

The change in stiffness is very small, not zero.

Wrong.

You also seemed to miss the bit about Pythagoras at school, not sure what you're formula are, show your working.

Pythagoras has nothing to do with it - maybe you'd like to explain why you think it does? I gave the radial and lateral components of the spoke's length - I thought that was fairly straightforward and obvious. Also whilst it's not normally the done thing to claim to be an engineer on here, in the circumstances it seems reasonable to point out I've studied forces, structures and materials at university (oh and I've also read Jobst Brandt's wheel book - have you?)

The "vertically compliant by laterally stiff" thing is the butt of many jokes in the bicycle industry, but that's pretty much what a double-diamond frame is.

😆 you don't get the joke do you?

Northwind,
Do I think tooling for a carbon bike is a quid? Well I never said that. Since I was talking about the cost of one part. I thought it would be obvious that the quid for tooling would be the proportion of the total cost of tooling amortised to that part. I thought it would be obvious that tooling did not cost a quid in total. I mean come on man get with the programme....

Also whilst it's not normally the done thing to claim to be an engineer

Armchairs at the ready

I'm genuinely impressed that this thread has devolved into two separate rows, both of which are quite unpleasant.

Can't the wheel tension arguers meet up face-to-face for some kind of maths "burn" to settle things?

I'm genuinely impressed that this thread has devolved into two separate rows, both of which are quite unpleasant.

Can't the wheel tension arguers meet up face-to-face for some kind of maths "burn" to settle things?

ive said this quite a bit recently ,it wouldnt matter if you designed the product theres always someone who will know more than you about your own product

well if i designed a product i'd expect there to be quite a few people in the world who'd be able to tell me something i don't know about it. is that what you mean? 😀

chief9000 - Member

Do I think tooling for a carbon bike is a quid? Well I never said that.

Well, you did. But, OK, taking your point, how many of these bikes do you think they sell?

Northwind,
I think I have made my point clear. If I was talking about material cost and labour for one item why would I then talk about total tooling cost rather than the proportion allocated to one item. Do you really think that someone would think a "complete tool" (haha) would cost a quid??? I think you misinterpreted a little but Im sorry for not making it compltely clear for you.

not good enough for rampage......

http://www.pinkbike.com/news/2013-Red-Bull-Rampage-BIKES.html

Blimey, vanderham on flows.

chief9000 - Member

If I was talking about material cost and labour for one item why would I then talk about total tooling cost rather than the proportion allocated to one item.

OK then, do you actually believe that the tooling of a carbon frame distributed across every one sold is a quid?

OK then, do you actually believe that the tooling of a carbon frame distributed across every one sold is a quid?

Only an imbecile would think that.

Part of the price of Enve rims, up to now any way, is attributable to the lack of alternatives. When viable alternatives start to become available the price will come down.

OK then, do you actually believe that the tooling of a carbon frame distributed across every one sold is a quid?

there is often two sets of tooling for each frame size in the top wack frames also so that should be 2 quid

Blimey, vanderham on flows.

Is it coz he's on 650bs he was 3rd on em last yr

Are there many dh rims in 650b?

Xxxx