[Closed] So Enve rims....

I went off them after the Pinkbike review censorship scandal thing.

If you can really ride very well and the weight loss will give you podiums yes, they must be very good.
If you are a trail center mincer with too much money (or debt) they just make you look like a tosser IMHO.

What scandal? Do you have any links

They'll make you look like an MTB version of one of them ATGNI roadies who have ENVE rims.

Wouldnt risk it.

Get some Sun Doublewides instead.

Yes, what Pinkbike scandal?

Pinkbike reviewed them, the rims failed badly on them. They said this was because they had developed a small crack, but they chose to continue riding them, as the crack was so small that they felt most riders wouldn't notivce them. But the photos of the failure got edited out of the review and it all got given a quite poositive slant.

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I think Iolo makes a good point; I have a set after I gave up on my Haven Carbons (kept breaking spokes on the rear plus all the issues with the hub)and got a refund.

They build into amazing wheels and the benefits are definitely there but those benefits are more in their stiffness and accuracy rather than weight saving.

Yes they are relatively light, but you can get as light with alloy. The key difference is that the alloy wheels that are as light are nothing like as strong or, most notably, stiff.

Coming back from injury earlier this year I was taking it very easy on the bike (I broke my arm quite badly) and honestly, when not riding at ten tenths, I found the benefits of the Enve rims had disappeared. You really do need to be riding your bike at the limit before you really start to feel their impact.

I don't race; I ride for enjoyment and the Enve rims really do enhance that enjoyment. I would have another pair on any other bike I have in the future, in particular (and most especially) if I went to 29" wheels, where I suspect a very stiff and light wheel is essential.

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Wow, and at 750 pounds you'd be quite pissed.
Enve will demand this thread is deleted now.

those benefits are more in their stiffness and accuracy rather than weight saving

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If you read the comments on the review, the reviewer himself weighs in, and he's less than positive about the rims, and how the review was edited. The point that the rims only cracked, but the tester continued riding them regardless is a valid one, I suppose - the pics above are down to an already-cracked rim being ridden hard, as opposed to a sudden failure - but they still failed.

Also - Enve claimed that the wheels/rims were a "lighter, pre production" version - even though they were about 100g heavier than the claimed weight for their production wheelsets. And they replaced them with a set of "production" ones that were a further 30g per rim heavier. All very dubious.

5 minutes referring to my Roger Musson book and that rim would be sorted.

This is the Pinkbike review [url= http://www.pinkbike.com/news/Enve-Composites-DH-Wheels-Tested-2013.html ]HERE[/url]

It's pretty brief but the full story emerges in the comments section.

I suppose - the pics above are down to an already-cracked rim being ridden hard, as opposed to a sudden failure - but they still failed.

Get some D521's, they crack on the first ride out, yet continue to perform well, rather than falling apart.

Cynic-al

Have you spent any time on a set?

Ummm'd and aahhhh'd over carbon rims for my Niner but in the end went for some super light alloy jobbies instead.. 😀

I've ridden a 650b demo bike with a set. They look the monkey's.

But I was disappointed to find out that, despite absolutely hammering the bike - at 10 tenths - down the final descent at Afan they just felt like wheels. I couldn't honestly tell the difference between them and the alloy wheels on the other similar demo bike.

It's a bit of shame really, cos I really [i]wanted[/i] to be blown away by them - after all carbon rims are supposed to have some 'magic' quality about them. I am a complete carbon whore in all other respects, but I can honestly say - they just felt like wheels!

Those Pinkbike photos are a bit scary. 😯

If you want stiff wheels, get some 24 inchers, or even 26 inchers.

£750 for a rim is just nuts.

If your are a carbon whore then there are carbon wheelsets around for that kind of money.

Are the ENVE rims really that good?

In Enve's defence many alloy wheels have failed in the same disastrous manor.
Its's just they were a bit cheaper

In Enve's defence many alloy wheels have failed in the same disastrous manor.

But the manufacturer of those alloy wheels didn't then have the carnage edited out of a review that would be seen by thousands of people or claim to have accidentally supplied superlight prototype rims.

That is a fair and valid point

Is it pronounced 'Envy' or 'Env' out of interest?

It's like everything really, people with a lot of money will always be able to justify something as being 'worth' it, even if it is just because owning them makes them feel good. Nowt wrong with that I guess

EDIT : Or 'Enveh' or 'Envuh' maybe?! 😀

Interesting to hear about the PinkBike cover up. Another thing that seems to have been suppressed is Bryceland's wheel failure at MSA. A quick search doesn't find anything about the incident apart from a claimed 'wheel build failure', but to me I remember thinking that the it was the rim that had totally blown (similar to those PB pics) and expecting to hear more about it in the media...which never happened.

It didn't look like Bryceland's rim failed, was watching it live, was more hub/spokes (all related, I suppose)

DH WC racers blowing up rims isnt really news though is it.

But wheel build failure? At that level? Really?
At a back street LBS maybe. But World Cups? Come on

At a World Cup previous to MSA there was a video with one of the Syndicate mechanics who was talking about them experimenting with lower spoke tensions.

Bryceland's failure looked like they went too low on the spoke tensions, and the wheel completely detensioned and collapsed. Rim looked fine.

750 pound rims blamed on wheel construction?
More likely the rim

OK. I stand corrected

Why would you buy Enve over Lightbicycle rims? Just the name is all I can think of!

What benefit would lower spoke tensions give? Make the wheel less stiff? 🙂

DanW - Member
Why would you buy Enve over Lightbicycle rims? Just the name is all I can think of!

Five year, no-questions-asked warranty. Or you could just get ten sets of Mavic/Stan's rims.

Mmm. To be fair, if a customer noticed a crack in an Enve rim, they'd do a warranty replacement or damage replacement, they probably wouldn't keep riding til they exploded. So the pics are probably a bit unrepresentative of how it would play out, they could give a false impression. I cracked a Stans rim and a couple of Mavics, retired them because I'm not a goon, so I have no super-dramatic pics of exploded wheels.

I don't have personal experience of the ENVE rims as £750 a pop is way too steep for me - but I bought some a Chinese made Light-Bicycle rims to see how they would hold up; and if carbon rims were to feel amazing then I would have an idea if £750 for ENVE's was worth it.

I was loving the feel of the wheels and was confident enough in them to leave them on for the Trans-Savoie... Unfortunately I damaged my rear rim on the first day of the race when I went into a rock garden a bit "hot"... sounded like a gunshot going off but I only found the damage when back at the campsite... and it held together for the next five days of racing; although it was no longer tubeless after day three (the rim damaged the tyre sidewall hence the gel wrapper stuffed in it.

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On the same section of trail someone else damaged an ENVE rim in almost exactly the same way, although mine looked worse and his remained tubeless all week. Neither failed catastrophically and nobody died. If I’d paid £750 I would probably be pissed off, but having paid about $200 I can suck it up – sh*& happens and stuff breaks when you ride bikes hard.

What I've learned is that carbon wheels do feel very good - the stiffness of the rim when you build the wheel up is noticeable, like building a wheel with a strong DH rim. On the bike the wheel doesn’t get squirmy and deflected like a lightweight XC wheel yet they accelerate like one – very responsive is how I would describe them. Now I’m back on a Flow rim out back I do miss the feel of the Carbon rim. Light-Bicycle say they have improved the design of their rims so I’m very tempted to buy another.

Much as I liked the feeling of the carbon rims I could still do a lot more with £750 a pop… and there is always the “risk” that I do something stupid and damage a rim (Flow rims have lasted anywhere between 2 rides and 2 years with me as I have a tendency to break stuff).

If the ENVE's were indestructable then maybe £750... but they just don't seem to be that tough which means for me they are price point too far. How ever many year warranty replacement is very good in theory but replacing broken parts is always a pain in the arse.

I cracked a Stan's rim on a Hope Hoop, hope replaced the rim and rebuilt the wheel, no questions asked

Five year, no-questions-asked warranty. Or you could just get ten sets of Mavic/Stan's rims.

But the benefit of these carbon rims is supposedly better stiffness to weight ratio over alu. Lightbicycle have a one year warranty and are $150 with lots of very positive reviews. Given the price, and judging by the high mileage users racing on Lightbicycle rims and all the positive comments on MTBR they seem to have fewer negative comments than Enve too... Seems like a win all round

[i]they seem to have fewer negative comments than Enve[/i]

I wonder if that's just the fact that people will 'put up with' things on a $150 rim that they wouldn't on a $1000 one?

they seem to have fewer negative comments than Enve

I wonder if that's just the fact that people will 'put up with' things on a $150 rim that they wouldn't on a $1000 one?

Very possibly, however the lower price point probably also means that more people ride lightbicycle than Enve so you would expect more failures for the same overall percentage of failures on both rims. They seem to be the go to option especially for riders of larger wheels looking for good value stiff wheels so I would have thought there should be more negative comments than there seem to be

messiah - Member
I don't have personal experience of the ENVE rims as £750 a pop is way too steep for me - but I bought some a Chinese made Light-Bicycle rims to see how they would hold up; and if carbon rims were to feel amazing then I would have an idea if £750 for ENVE's was worth it.

I was loving the feel of the wheels and was confident enough in them to leave them on for the Trans-Savoie... Unfortunately I damaged my rear rim on the first day of the race when I went into a rock garden a bit "hot"... sounded like a gunshot going off but I only found the damage when back at the campsite... and it held together for the next five days of racing; although it was no longer tubeless after day three (the rim damaged the tyre sidewall hence the gel wrapper stuffed in it.

Do you think that impact would have killed an alloy rim? I often used to find dings in my D521's, but you could bend them back out with a pair of pliers.

What benefit would lower spoke tensions give? Make the wheel less stiff?

There is Mavic research which shows that the spoke tension has no effect on the lateral (side-to-side) stiffness of a rim once it's tight enough for the wheel not to de-tension.

What you do get with lower tensions is less radial stiffness, which gives you a bit more compliance and grip. Wheel suspension if you will. Of course the risk is going too low and having all the nipples loosen as load goes on and off them as the wheel rotates.

I'm not sure there is much benefit to lowering spoke tensions with an Enve rim, being as they are so stiff on their own. Over-tensioning a single spoke on an Enve build has much less effect on the trueness of a wheel as would an alloy wheel, thus it is easier to over tension one spoke and crack the nipple seat in the rim (seen this). If you're building an Enve wheel, buy a spoke tensiometer to go along with it.

I LOVE how people bad mouth products because they're expensive rather than actually riding a set to see if they're any good.

If you don't like them, don't buy them. Don't bitch about it because you simply can't afford it...

I also love how people will happily spend a small fortune on frame and suspension components but baulk at spending an equivalent amount on their wheels when actually they can make almost as much difference in ride quality as the frame.

a lad i ride with occasionally has a regular riding buddy who has a set, first ride on them in the peak district, on the first descent of the day and the rim cracked!

it seems looking at other peoples reviews (and messiah) that they are not overly keen on rocks! im sure they are fine for racing on and probably if you dont live near rocks, but from the personal reviews ive read id be slightly wary (if i could afford them)....from what i gathered though hes having it replaced FOC anyways so its not really the end of the world....like someone else said stuff breaks, whether it be expensive or otherwise, carbon frames break, alloy frames break, alloy wheels break, and clearly carbon do too

i personally unlesss i won the lottery, wouldnt have a set of them for riding the peak district, but if i lived darrrn sarrrf way and was loaded id defo consider a set as i think theyd be fine elsewhere

Dougal - Member

There is Mavic research which shows that the spoke tension has no effect on the lateral (side-to-side) stiffness of a rim once it's tight enough for the wheel not to de-tension.

What you do get with lower tensions is less radial stiffness, which gives you a bit more compliance and grip. Wheel suspension if you will. Of course the risk is going too low and having all the nipples loosen as load goes on and off them as the wheel rotates.

I'm not sure there is much benefit to lowering spoke tensions with an Enve rim, being as they are so stiff on their own. Over-tensioning a single spoke on an Enve build has much less effect on the trueness of a wheel as would an alloy wheel, thus it is easier to over tension one spoke and crack the nipple seat in the rim (seen this). If you're building an Enve wheel, buy a spoke tensiometer to go along with it.

Yeah - that's what I was driving at. "These new carbon wheels are AMAZINGLY stiff. Now. How do we build them up so they're not so bloody stiff?"

Carbon rims are a bit odd in my opinion. In most cases spokes are used which apply point loads in a materials which does not like any point loads at all. If thickness is reduced in the rim, particularly where the spokes contact, you are likely to have a failure.

Maybe i misunderstood here but are these rims 750 notes each? This in my opinion is absolutely ridiculous and pushes the limits of what is acceptable. Bike companies seem to be taking the pi** more and more. 750 notes? The cost of the material in one of these things would be about 15 euros max, of course you have tooling (lets say about 1-4 euro if you make 10000 rims) them there is labour. In my opinion you are lucky to hit the 50 euro mark for production of these things.

Do you think that impact would have killed an alloy rim? I often used to find dings in my D521's, but you could bend them back out with a pair of pliers.

davidtaylforth - When I dent an alloy rim I usually know I've done it. To be honest I thought at the time that I must have hit something hard and therefore it would have damaged any other rim. But I didn't remember hitting anything just a loud "crack" like a gunshot. Since looking at the rim at home and reading of other failures on MTBR I'm now thinking it was a rim failure rather than an impact.

Nerd reading regarding spoke tension vs stiffness
http://sheldonbrown.com/rinard/wheel/index.htm

Yes they are relatively light, but you can get as light with alloy. The key difference is that the alloy wheels that are as light are nothing like as strong or, most notably, stiff.

Are they laterally stiff, but vertically compliant, and do they make the trail come alive?

I also love how people will happily spend a small fortune on frame and suspension components but baulk at spending an equivalent amount on their wheels when actually they can make almost as much difference in ride quality as the frame.

Hmmm.....

You really do need to be riding your bike at the limit before you really start to feel their impact.

What is 'the limit' then? Is it somewhere in Surrey? 😛

I LOVE how people bad mouth products because they're expensive rather than actually riding a set to see if they're any good.

If you don't like them, don't buy them. Don't bitch about it because you simply can't afford it...

I don't need to ride them to find out that they're ridiculously expensive for something that you're going to repeatedly bash into rocks. Think many people here probably could afford them judging by some of the bikes people have - if they thought they were worth it.

do they make the trail come alive

Only in 650b size.

they are not overly keen on rocks!

[url= http://thisispeaty.com/ ]Enve Wheels on Rocks ![/url]

.... Lots of footage here to counter that one !

Just get some light bicycle rims or those new 40mm wide ones for a third of the price.

Mine have been great.

Probably the best rider I know loves them. He swears blind that he'd have killed any other wheel by now (he's had a few).
Price tag is waaaay too much for me, no matter how good they are. [i]If[/i] I had a load of money to spend on new wheels, I'd be looking at those really wide Syntace ones.

I wonder how robust/expensive the Stan's carbon rims will be?

It didn't look like Bryceland's rim failed, was watching it live, was more hub/spokes (all related, I suppose)

only saw the live images too, but thought it looked more than that. i could be wrong.

DH WC racers blowing up rims isnt really news though is it.

no, not really. but given he's such a high profile rider & that they're one of only a few teams singing about being on carbon rims i thought there would've been something said about it. but there was nothing.

just saying that the press embargo seemed a little fishy to me.

I got a pair. Frickin awesome, still straight as and not a chink. Set of Stan's Flow after same period was busted, dented and wobbly.

They are stiff as and in rocky terrain its a bit of a shock but once you get used to it and just ride with strength and speed through sections its great. Makes the whole bike feel Super Tight.

My concept is they should last 3-5 years and equals the investment of other wheels sets.

They look awesome too 😉

I've ordered a set of the light bicycle AM rims, came to ~£250 inc shipping for 2 rims.

Not got them yet, but the reviews seem generally positive.

Would be interested to read of any direct and objective/scientific comparisons between the enve rims and the Light bicycle co AM rims, to see if theres a significant difference.

What is 'the limit' then? Is it somewhere in Surrey?

Surrey, Lakes, Peak, Verbier, Wales.

Take your prick. I'm pretty sure I've shown them enough speed over even the roughest ground to test them satisfactorily.

Reading the responses people fall into two categories.

Those that have them, love them and agree on the benefits I've outlined and those that don't have them and think they are ridiculously expensive and can't see how they are worth the added cost.

Which is fine.

I've used a set of Havens, and a set of Enve's. The latter not being mine.

People regularly talk about the stiffness, and combined with a carbon frame, I found them too stiff. On a long, off camber, rooty section they were noticeably harder to hold a high line on, as nothing flexed or moved.

As an aside point, when racing recently I got a high speed blowout on a rocky chute, tyre rolled off the rim etc. if I was running a carbon rim, it would have been wrecked,, it was that rough. There was a lot of chunks taken out of the Flow, but it still worked, and still does.

They are largely pointless IMO. I didn't go any faster with them, and I found the bike rode better without, as a set of DT Swiss/Flows introduced a bit of wheel flex which made the bike feel nicer.

Still, if people want to buy them then who cares.

geetee1972 - Member

Those that have them, love them and agree on the benefits I've outlined and those that don't have them and think they are ridiculously expensive and can't see how they are worth the added cost.

Which is fine.

I'm more in the "they'd be a MASSIVE investment for me, and I'd want to be 1000% sure of their quality before I'd even consider it" camp. The other thing is the enormity of the price gap between them and their competitors - carbon wheels like Eashon Haven & Reynolds AM, etc are around 1K or less, compared to £750 for a rim, but the benefits are difficult to qunatify.

excitable1 - Member
they are not overly keen on rocks!
Enve Wheels on Rocks !

.... Lots of footage here to counter that one !

yeh i know what ya mean, but dont forget they are 'good' riders, the one guy i know of that has done it with enve rims isnt a 'pro' nor a slender person (just loaded!!!!) probably like a lot of riders with money on here 😉 , ie just plows through the rocks rather than picks lines etc etc, so im sure in the right hands they could live up to all the peak district has to offer, but i sometimes get lines wrong and have dinged numerous brands of wheels around the peaks, the only thing i think is if that was on a carbon wheel it wouldnt be a ding, it would be a crack

its just the price more so than anything, i just cant believe they are £1700 a wheelset, its just crazy, and dont get me wrong if i was minted id probably have a set as im a tart, but £1700 just for some wheels is a bit mental when you [i]really[/i] think about it (especially just to get bashed, chipped, scratched etc around the rocky stuff)

that said dont think im moaning cos of the price, im probably alittle ENVE(ious) of people that can afford them, and i spend lots on bike stuff so im not one of the anti-bling/money brigade but even they are just too out of my league money wise, i do genuinely love seeing expensive bikes out and about, and the rims look mint in the flesh, and im sure the people who own them love them too

Those that have them, love them and agree on the benefits I've outlined and those that don't have them and think they are ridiculously expensive and can't see how they are worth the added cost.

Not sure many people would splurge £1500 on a pair of rims then say that they are so so, or even crap. Quite a big investment in them (financial and otherwise).

Purchase justification.

My concept is they should last 3-5 years and equals the investment of other wheels sets.

I should flippin hope they'd last that long!

Even if you were trashing Alu rims every 6 months (really? are you?) @£50 a rim if would take ~7 years to break even on one Enve rim.

Even in the long run, you'd need a decade out of one at least to even consider that argument, a lot of people still have 5-10 year old Alu rims, not to mention fashionable wheel size changes 😉

By all means extol their virtues from a technical and ride feel point of view, and if you can afford them then fair play to you, but there is no point in trying to pretend that they are the economical choice 🙂

Do you need tyres with really stiff (carbon?) sidewalls to be able to feel the benefits?

Yeah - that's what I was driving at. "These new carbon wheels are AMAZINGLY stiff. Now. How do we build them up so they're not so bloody stiff?"

Different type of stiff as he said. Radialy the stiffness is given by the spokes in tension at the top of the wheel. You can't crush a wheel radialy, that's why arches are arch shaped! So A very siff rim lets you get huge side to side stiffness, but low enough spoke tension to allow it to deflect radialy.

Bit like low spoke count road wheels, they feel nice and comfortable, but are almost/just as stiff axialy as having a full 32/36 spokes.

I'm tempted by a set of lightbikes rims for Swinely, but worry about the Sticker Rock Garden.

Do you need tyres with really stiff (carbon?) sidewalls to be able to feel the benefits?

£750 per rim.

I have never owned a full bike which cost that much...

Does this mean I am below the poverty line?

grum - Member

Not sure many people would splurge £1500 on a pair of rims then say that they are so so, or even crap.

An enve-sponsored rider I know who will remain nameless for obvious reasons got a set for free and says "They're the best wheels I've ever had but you'd have to be insane to buy them"

Wibble 😐

All this debating does nothing for me. I don't like the way the handled themselves and manipulated the information in the wake of a very public failure. So I don't want to give them my money.

£750 per rim.

I have never owned a full bike which cost that much...

Does this mean I am below the poverty line?

Yes, people like you are what's stopping trail center cafes serving truffle sprinkled Chai Latte's. B****** proles. :-p

But yea, on a serious note, bit my main MTB and Road bikes probably cost about that (I do have more expensive but less frequently used MTB's though wasting space in the garrage!

All this debating does nothing for me. I don't like the way the handled themselves and manipulated the information in the wake of a very public failure. So I don't want to give them my money.

That's my thoughts too. Sounds like dodgy business and on top of that I think less of Pinkbike for not publishing their original review and then publishing Enve's comments rather than just editing the review.

In fairness to Enve I think the whole review situation reflects worse on Pinkbike than Enve. If you own a company and put something forward for review and the reviewers says the noticed a crack then continued to use the product out of curiosity then post up pictures of your product exploding how happy would you be? Yes a crack is bad news too but the warranty is in place to deal with these issues before things turn catastrophic.

Pinkbike is awfully biased and edited when it comes to certain brands. Take for example the whole Gwin getting poached to Specialized saga. Anything negative about Specialized got deleted from the comments and forums when I think Specialized pay quite a lot in advertising towards PB... same as any industry I guess.

With the Enve case on the other hand I think Enve probably wanted a fairer deal rather than having their exploded rims posted up when a lot of it could been avoided and was down to user error (i.e. riding a rim they knew was cracked)

^
'i noticed yer rim was cracked mate, but a regular punter wouldn't have so i decided i'd keep on ragging them and see what happened innt?'
clot. the guy's entitled to take risks on his/her own kit but these parts were on loan. should have just been a warranty repair when the damage was noticed. mention that in the review by all means. that would have made a fair and unbiased review.
anyway. 750 flippin quid!!?!
that's what i really wanted to say. 😀

Had a 26" wheelset used for 18 months no issues,

Have full cockpit and rims on my tallboy which gets hammered and same on my road bike

Zero problems, so nothing to moan about

But I was disappointed to find out that, despite absolutely hammering the bike - at 10 tenths - down the final descent at Afan [b]they just felt like wheels.[/b]

Zero problems, so nothing to moan about

Apart from the price/performance gain ratio.

£750 per rim takes the piss and any average rider who buys them needs their head examined.

Built a set of Light-Bicycle rims on DT 240 hubs for 2/3 the price of 1 ENVE rim. They didn't explode going down the Rangers Path on Saturday, and I don't exactly ride with finesse. You pays your money and takes your choice!

I own a set of road 3.4s and off road XCs. Fantastic wheels, but the law of diminishing returns applies.

Are they 'better' than a £500 set of wheels? Yes. Well made, light, aero, good warranty, rebuildable, and have that bling factor which is nice if I am honest.

Are they 4 x 'better' than a £500 set of wheels? No.

£750 per rim takes the piss and any average rider who buys them needs their head examined.

Er hang on, what planet are you on? Spending excessive amounts of money on bits and pieces is part of the hobby matey. I may not know how to ride properly, but I can reel off a load of twaddle about my expensive bike bits that'll make it sounds like I know what Im on about.