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In some of my idle moments I'm vaguely thinking what I'd do if the opportunity arose to guide e-bike trips...
I was working in the basis that a half fat eeb ( henceforth known as a feeb, stands for feeble ebike 😁) like the ubiquitous Rise would be less unpleasant than a full behemoth and would at least be used on some XC rides at other times. So I could get one of them.
But @johnw1984 was saying on his trade-in thread that he needs shot of his feeb because he can't keep up with the missus on her eeb.
I'd assumed that so long as I stay in low gear so the 60nm torque limit isn't reached that I'd be able to pedal a feeb uphill at the same pace as someone on an eeb. I'd assumed that the 15.5mph limit would be the limiting factor for both riders. I gues that is the case on a shallow gradient uphill, but presumably on your average gradient fire road it isn't possible for a punter to hit the 15.5mph equaliser and so would lag behind an eeb....
Does a group ride on eebs and feebs work, or does it just produce a watered down version of the eeb/neeb group ride issue?
Tell me.
PS, range extender is a given.
I think a feeb works best with like minded feeb'ers or non eebers. It will still get left by eebs on a group ride up steeper climbs.
Jeebus Christ.
I think a feeb works best with like minded feeb’ers or non eebers. It will still get left by eebs on a group ride up steeper climbs
OK, bums.
Would that still be the case if the eebs knew they were on an all-dayer and hence might want to conserve battery power?
Eg, big cairngorms day or Torridon Classic
Jeebus Christ
Is that the one that floats on water....
John’s feeb is a Kenevo SL with 35Nm, not a Rise with 60.
feeb, 🤣 well done
I’d assumed that so long as I stay in low gear so the 60nm torque limit isn’t reached that I’d be able to pedal a feeb uphill at the same pace as someone on an eeb.
~the torque is motor output not at the rear wheel so the gear you are in is irrelevant
Jeebus Christ
He’s not the messiah, he’s a very naughty boy!
But @johnw1984 was saying on his trade-in thread that he needs shot of his feeb because he can’t keep up with the missus on her eeb.
Huge difference between a 35Nm KSL and 60Nm Rise in terms of assistance… Rise also has a slightly bigger battery (or much bigger battery if you buy the 540Wh version), and takes a much bigger range extender too (252Wh vs 160Wh).
Obviously the Rise isn’t designed to compete with the KSL on the descents though, it’s as 140/150mm travel trail bike not an Enduro Sled with a mild assist motor.
Would that still be the case if the eebs knew they were on an all-dayer and hence might want to conserve battery power?
Yes… For sure… You’ve got to get them to think like this though, which can be the hardest part with many full fat eBike riders in my experience. A Rise with a range extender will easily be the equal of a full fat eBike run in a lower power mode to conserve battery life for an all day ride… You’ll be grateful of the 5kg+ weight saving when lifting it over gates too!
Doing 15.5mph up climbs so that the limiter kicks in as a leveller though…? 😂 These are 250W max assist eBikes, not 450cc 4 stroke Enduro motorbikes with 45KW+ output!!! Maybe on very gentle gradients and using Boost mode, but otherwise forget it…
How do you get half fat ebike into feeb? Feeb suggests fat not half fat.
Have another go.
How do you get half fat ebike into feeb?
he said:
henceforth known as a feeb, stands for feeble ebike
Would that still be the case if the eebs knew they were on an all-dayer and hence might want to conserve battery power?
The feeb I had had less battery range than an eeb, so no. Not sure if that applies to like a Kneebo SL
Would this work better? Just working around the power outputs:
Full power = FEEB (80+nm Rail Levo etc)
Mid power = MEEB (50+nm Rise, Fazua, Fuel EXe etc)
Low power = LEEB (under 45nm, Kenevo SL, Levo SL, etc)
half fat is 29/27.5 x 2.1-2.5 rear and 26 x 4.0+ front anyway
Are we talking exclusively some sort of eeb for everyone on the group ride? Or a mixture of non eeb and eeb?
Either way, on all the guided trips I've been on, with multiple big days in a row, with a mixture of skills/fitness and bikes, everyone essentially rides at the slowest persons pace on the climbs. Some might have to wait around at the top for a little while but no-one ever minds. I've been at both ends of that experience, having been the slowest in a bunch of retired xc whippets and ebikes, and the fastest when I was the fittest in the group with a few less fit people, all on non eebs.
he said:
henceforth known as a feeb, stands for feeble ebike
He did indeed. Utter failure to read something properly on my part
~the torque is motor output not at the rear wheel so the gear you are in is irrelevant
Hmm. First part of sentence seems to contradict the second...
The motor output, ie drivechain input can only produce a certain amount of torque. Not power, torque, ie twisting force.
If I stay in a low gear then that torque will move the drivechain more easily, and hence the bike, than if I was in a higher gear. (If i was in a high gear on the hill the bike would simply refuse to provide the 61Nm I need to move the bike)The obvious corollary to that is that I'd need to be spinning the pedals a lot, which is fine, I'm a com0lete spinner rather than masher
Huge difference between a 35Nm KSL and 60Nm Rise in terms of assistance…
Ah, very useful info. I guess that explains why so many people are raving about the Rise then 🙂
A Rise with a range extender will easily be the equal of a full fat eBike run in a lower power mode to conserve battery life for an all day ride…
Ossum.
Maybe on very gentle gradients and using Boost mode, but otherwise forget it…
Yep. Verrrrry gentle
How do you get half fat ebike into feeb? Feeb suggests fat not half fat.
It's hfeeb with a silent "h".... You just ignore all instances of the first letter.
So ffeeb becomes simply eeb. Which is great because that's what they're called ont' forum anyway
And hfeeb becomes feeb. Short for Feeble ebike.
Clutching at straws here, but eeb already has followers and I don't know how to pronounce hfeeb without blowing snorters out of my nose.😆
I read all those in a Gollum voice.
So now I'm imagining a fully Troy Lee'd up tubby Gollum stroking the battery indicator on his E-bike display muttering "my precious, they don't underssstand us, filthy little fit neebers".
I've yet to ride with anyone that hasn't run out of juice including a range extender on a lightweight eeb when I've still got juice left in my 700 battery on a big ride.
If we're doing an epic ride it stays in eco until I'm completely shot or we're on the last climb and it turns into a full on Ebike ****er race to the top.
I've tried a few different light weights and didn't really like them.
I'd rather ride a full on eeber or a manual bike.
Plus my Feeb feel too long 🙂
I went on a Beacon Bikes ride (based in Sussex) and there were people on lightweight and normal ebikes.
People on the lightweight ones were generally fitter and kept up ok. It's a social pace with stops for catch ups though.
"Huge difference between a 35Nm KSL and 60Nm Rise in terms of assistance… "
There's a back to back test of Levo SL (same motor) vs some others here. Levo SL won..
Generalist - are you confusing power and torque? Power is torque times revs. Of course it provides the full 60nm at any pedalling revs. thats what torque is.
Generalist – are you confusing power and torque?
Nope
Of course it provides the full 60nm at any pedalling revs. thats what torque is.
What I'm saying is that 60Nm will get the bike in motion up hill x if it is in a low enough gear. If you tried to get the bike in motion on that same hill in a high gear then it wouldn't move because the torque needed might be above 60Nm.
I’ve yet to ride with anyone that hasn’t run out of juice including a range extender on a lightweight eeb when I’ve still got juice left in my 700 battery on a big ride.
If we’re doing an epic ride....
Aha, whilst you're here.....
If someone was to rock up in your neck of the woods and want to hire an eeb ( or indeed a hfwchDweeb )
1) Are there shops wot hire them?
2) Might you be about to show them where it's at?
asking for a friend 😉
Yes they'd be able to hire from a few different places.
I might be about to to show your "friend" where it's at depending on when they are here.
@thegeneralist , just go and hire an eeb an a feeb for a day each then you'll know what they're each about without having to make assumptions.
Forget the torque, work on the basis that the average eeb adds 550w ( some add more ,some add less), and the average feeb adds 300w (some add more ,some add less) to whatever the rider is puuting in and go from there.
Neither will trouble the 15.5 mph motor assist cutout up your average MTB uphill
I’d assumed that so long as I stay in low gear so the 60nm torque limit isn’t reached that I’d be able to pedal a feeb uphill at the same pace as someone on an eeb
Unlikely ,unless your FTP is ~200w higher than the person on the eeb. IE you need to be able to make up a circa 200 to 300 w power deficit.
Power is more important. Rise is 250w max - full fat can do 500-700w depending on motor.
To get 500w avg up a climb on a rise you are putting out 250w, whereas on a full fat you only need say 100w. Then the weight difference doesn’t matter that much. Put out 150w on the full fat and with 650w of power it will sail past somebody turning themselves inside out on a rise without much effort.
To ride a rise with a ff you need to be able to make up the power difference yourself. Using modes to alter the assist affects the range so its not an equal comparison. Couple of hour rides the ff will win because boost everywhere.
Longer rides when you use eco/trail/off more the light ebike comes into its own, your legs can make the difference up much easier. Consider range to be the same either way, i.e. a rise with extender will be there or thereabouts the same range as a 630wh ff. Its not, but thats how it ends up.
Fit person on 900wh ebike will lunch anybody on a half ebike with no problem and have battery left over.
Theyre all just bikes, buy the bike that suits the riding you want to do. Mixing groups up is just like any ride, naturally it will all come together.
Theyre all just bikes,
Ummmmm 😉
maybe 😛
Rise is 250w max
It isn’t.
Sams bikes is a good place to start.
Having both I would say has about right in what he says although I still prefer the planted feel of the Turbo Levo.
Listening to some of the EWS riders in Finale, who I didn't believe at the time, and also from our own latter observations rider weight has an impact on the battery. We have tried it a few time on climbs on two identical bikes set up to the same tune in the same mode and same gear on a 10k climb in the Alps including switching bikes and the lighter rider always has more battery left at the end