[Closed] Smaller wheels still = more fun?

Mullet bikes - the best of both worlds.

I think one big factor is the riders height and frame size. Since some brands are offering XS and S with 27.5 inch wheels and M and above with 29, there must be a reason. Both my FS and HT are 27.5 and really fun but I'd like something really fast and light now too. Being quite short there are not many 29ers that would fit without compromising something, but very tempted to buy the new On One Whippet when it comes out knowing it will run both 29 and 27.5 plus.

All personal opinion.

I prefer 650b based on a few rides of 29ers and having owned a number of 650 bikes. My new FS is also 650b.

If you’re going to run fs and ht and the ht is for short blasts then I’d try to distance it from the fs personally.

My fs is now a 140/130 trail bike with a 65 degree headangle and reasonable reach for my height (457mm / I’m 5’9 with short torso and arms). Previously I had a 481mm reach / 160mm travel / 64 degree ha / longer wheelbase enduro bike.

My ht is a Vitus Sentier which I deliberately bought smaller and short led but not massively old fashioned. That has short chainstays / 432mm reach / big standover height / 66 degree head angle : shorter wheelbase.

The ht is hilarious - it just wants to manual and pop off everything on the trail. It rips round corners like nothing else I’ve ever ridden - some of my pbs at flyup 417 (blue trails) are on the ht where it was a lot of fun.

The ht has 140mm Pikes / Dt e1900 wheels / code r’s / 150mm dropper / Gx 11 speed etc so a decent but not bling build. Feels pretty light compared to my 32lb full suss.

On steeper off piste sort of stuff I like the ht unless it gets really rocky. Where it struggles is high speed rock garden sort of stuff - but then I’m on the fs on trails like that generally.

But then it depends what your ht is going to be used for!

Is wheel size as important as I’m convincing myself?

No.

Lots of bikes will ride differently, no matter what the wheel size is, if you're having fun on a bike, who cares about one factor of that bikes geometry.

Folk always come out with the same - 29ers roll better over stuff. These are sometimes the same people who refer to a FS as a skills compensator, without seeing the irony of the pish they spout.

Ride on.

what do you define as fun?

I always found it interesting that going fast and having fun were talked about by my some as opposites. Is smashing rock gardens at mach stupid not super fun?
I say ride a few bikes and see what you enjoy.

I have a trail full suss, 650b with 2.35 tyres.
And a 29er hardtail.

The hardtail is far more "playful" in terms of moving your body about, hopping the back wheel over things.

Thanks all. I guess I class 'fun' as the bike wanting arse about, wanting to find cheeky drop offs and session shorter sections. As is said above I want to feel that 'The ht is hilarious – it just wants to manual and pop off everything on the trail. It rips round corners like nothing else I’ve ever ridden'. The P7 was like that but I'm just worried that geometry has changed so much now that 650b bikes are heading in to 29" feel territory.

I love my 29er but it feels like it would rather get where it's going then stop and play if that makes sense. I prefer this and the huge stability 90% of the time but I want something for the 10%. What I don't want is to go down the 650b route only to find that the fun has been sacrificed in the search for 29" benefits.

The answer is probably an older 650b frame but then I run in to the problem of sizing. My XL Segment's ETT is 650mm and I love the fit and I always thought the p7 was a touch small in a large.

I also realise I'm overthinking it but that's part of the fun eh?

I have a trail full suss, 650b with 2.35 tyres.
And a 29er hardtail.

The hardtail is far more “playful” in terms of moving your body about, hopping the back wheel over things.

Yeah, maybe that's it. The lighter rear end on the HT is actually as important when it comes to chuckability?

Testing is obviously a great idea but I'm pretty time poor atm, especially at weekends. Saying that, having a go on one decent 29" HT should reveal a lot.

I want to feel that ‘The ht is hilarious – it just wants to manual and pop off everything on the trail. It rips round corners like nothing else I’ve ever ridden’.

Get yourself a Stanton switchback with 27.5 * 2.4" tyres. Enjoy.

Just have a look at the geometry mostly. Find something that doesn’t have an extremely long reach, has quite short chainstays, not too slack a head angle, and not too much fork travel. They are still out there.

I have a trail full suss, 650b with 2.35 tyres.
And a 29er hardtail.

The hardtail is far more “playful” in terms of moving your body about, hopping the back wheel over things.

Yeah, maybe that’s it. The lighter rear end on the HT is actually as important when it comes to chuckability?

Testing is obviously a great idea but I’m pretty time poor atm, especially at weekends. Saying that, having a go on one decent 29″ HT should reveal a lot.

Looks like i never finished my comment - the flip side is that on faster trails - usually the more man-made type, the full sus is more enjoyable - berms, small drops and jumps.

Hard to really judge your own speed on different trails, but in general I'm guessing that the more manmade it is, the faster it is; and therefore the more I appreciate rear bounce and stickier tyres*

*(that I chose to use softer, bigger knobbed tyres on the fully, not because of any inherent difference in the wheel sizes)

Just have a look at the geometry mostly. Find something that doesn’t have an extremely long reach, has quite short chainstays, not too slack a head angle, and not too much fork travel. They are still out there.

Cheers for that, it makes sense. I find it easy to get lost in geometry charts and the latest fads. I had been thinking hardcore hardtail but actually the Orange 4 of the HT world is probably what I actually want......

Hardcore hardtail is likely to be quite stretched in terms of reach / slack headangle / longer of chainstay etc.

When I was looking there was the Vitus Sentier, Sonder Transmitter and Orange Clockwork 137 that I whittled my list down to.

Yeah, the Clockwork Evo from last year seems to hit quite a few buttons.

Clockwork Evo was the replacement for the 137 I believe. Comes in a beautiful mint green sort of colour it I remember rightly (as did the 137). It was only the ridiculous reduction of the Sentier VRX frame to £150 in the CRC sale that made me go that way instead of the Orange or the Transmitter. Both of those frames were on offer at the time but around £300.

This was the Orange I fancied getting:

https://www.orangebikes.co.uk/bike-archive/clockwork-137-frame/2018

The other option would be to rescue an old 26" bike from obscurity and test the theory in full...

The other option would be to rescue an old 26″ bike from obscurity and test the theory in full…

That’s a much less shiny new bike kind of fun though....I can remember the Sentier frame getting delivered and the excitement of unpacking it and building it up fresh. You don’t get that with someone’s ropey old 26er that you’ll likely struggle to get decent forks for if it has a straight steerer....

There's plenty of 26" frames with tapered or 44mm headtubes mind; of course, you won't have the same LLS wizardry, but perhaps that's part of the fun; agility and a greater sensation of speed; like chucking an old mini or mk1 golf gti through the turns, as opposed to a modern barge with all kinds of sensors and microprocessors doing the work for you...

Course, you wouldn't win any races with the classics, but theres far more to the mysterious science of fun than that

I asked about this on here 20 years ago, I wanted an MTB that felt like a BMX for Swinley, and I ended up buying a Planet-X Compo. It was a brilliant bike but now it's dead.

If the Ti Compo is still around I am still interested in buying, please.

Definitely a good way to make familiar tracks more interesting 🙂

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There’s plenty of 26″ frames with tapered or 44mm headtubes mind; of course, you won’t have the same LLS wizardry, but perhaps that’s part of the fun; agility and a greater sensation of speed; like chucking an old mini or mk1 golf gti through the turns, as opposed to a modern barge with all kinds of sensors and microprocessors doing the work for you…

Course, you wouldn’t win any races with the classics, but theres far more to the mysterious science of fun than that

Hmmmn, maybe, but having dabbled in a 26er hardtail a couple of years ago it was going down a rabbit hole of struggling to easily / cheaply buy bits for it. Tyres started off ok, then some of the cheap but good tyres seemed to get phased out. 26er forks with a straight headtube in that case were tricky - so had to go for some older forks.

And then the way it handled was nowhere near as good as the Sentier - which isn’t a particularly high end frame at that. The Vitus feels faster, does rocky stuff better, manuals and jumps better and corners at least as well if not better. I can’t think of a single thing the Kona I had did better (other than being cheaper still).

The older revelation fork I had was ok - but the newer Pike knocks it into a tin hat. With tyres I managed to get some OnOne chunky monkey / smogs which were ok on a price to performance ratio but I think they’ve been discontinued in 26” now (unless they’ve restarted selling them) etc etc

The other option would be to rescue an old 26″ bike from obscurity and test the theory in full…

Nah, that's going too far. I built up a 2007 26" hard tail a few years back and compared to my 29" full suss it felt awful. Top tube too short, stem too long, wheels too small. The 2016 P7 I had was pretty much spot on so that's the base position. A bit longer, a bit lighter but still lots of poppy fun.
I've got plenty of proper 26" retro that I don't use!

I was thinking more along the lines of a jump bike, rather than full retro jeyboy lycra steeds...

However, in that case, do they still do fun 29" hardtails?

Remember being curious about bikes like the Canfield Nimble 9 and Kona Honzo with short chainstays and tidy angles, but never jumped on the bandwagon due to an inherent fear of excessive gyroscopic force.

I was thinking more along the lines of a jump bike, rather than full retro jeyboy lycra steeds…

Have you got a 26er in the classifieds you can’t sell or something? 😝

29ers can still be nimble ish depending on the geometry, just not quite as nimble as 650b.

Nah man, I'm just a stubborn old git...

That and being 17 1/2 stone of sweet luvvin', with a tendency to bust whips, 180s and alley oops when my old bones will let me means I'm a touch sceptical of the extra leverage of these new fangled hoops on a dished wheel, boost or no!

That said, it's pretty clear there are several benefits, from the aforementioned additional gyroscopic forces, to the increased stability of having the BB below the axles.

There’s a sweet spot to be found for sure but I’m just not sure anyone makes it! I’m a big lump so struggle to fit on anything other than XL so that limits my choices.

You could look at Bird hardtails and see if anything would fit there without going too long. I see a lot of comments about how fun the zero 29er is - it’s got a really low BB so apparently it corners like a demon. Their 650b bike is more long and slack I think so less playful as far as I’m aware (if it is I’m disproving my first point about 650b being more playful)!

Generally I’d say their bikes are long / slack but if you’re that tall then maybe they’d do a job. Cotic lonngshot geo might also do a job - the Soul isn’t too hardcore I don’t think.

How tall are you / what’s your inside leg length? Also what reach have you got on your main fs bike - I took that distance and aimed for a good chunk shorter with shorter chainstays pretty much. Worked out exactly how I wanted.

Have a look at the SC Chameleon

You could run it with 27.5 2.5wt tyres and the bb would still be higher than some of the bikes you’re looking at.

It has a 67degree ish head angle so not too slack = more nimble most of the time but when things get super steep it will be more scary.

The chainstay is 415mm which is super playful for jumps and wheelies but less stable at speed.

You can swap it 29er or plus wheels anytime for different terrain/ uses.

650 front/26" rear mullet?

Thanks again for suggestions. I have looked at the Chameleon but it just seems excessively expensive, even second hand.

I'm 6'2" with quite long legs. My full suss is an XL Orange Segment so reach is 468mm, ETT 650mm, wheel base 1208mm, head angle 68, ESA 74. I'm running it with forks longer than it should atm though although plenty of sag makes it not feel too different.

I'll check out Bird. Have looked at Cotic but there's something about them I can't warm to. That added to the fact that there's a million different versions of each bike so second hand is a minefield.

I had been looking at a new or second hand frame to build up but bike to work is back on so that may be the route to go down.

If only the Stanton Switchback wasn’t quite so ludicrously short I’d go for one of them.

The Zero29 might be too long and slack looking at the geo. At 6’2 Bird put you on the large but it has 482mm reach / 64 ish degree headset / 440mm chainstays. I guess you could size down to the ML which would shorten the reach and chainstays.

The Bird Zero TR might be worth looking at - they seem to have a few in Large left. Bit shorter than their latest bikes and reduced to £300 for the frame. 66 degree headangle / 470mm reach on the Large / 435mm chainstays. I think the only downside if they’re non-boost on the rear although that’s not really an issue.

I think Bird do C2W too if you buy a whole bike and they’ll build most frames to the spec you want within reason.

If CRC do C2W then you the aforementioned Vitus Sentier have very good value full builds.

I've got a chameleon and agree they do look/are crazy expensive for what you get. But it is a really good bike.

I've running 2.6 27.5s at the moment and it is great - I've also raced it XC with 29ers, and run it with 27.5+ wheels. It's very versatile, and maybe the bike I'd keep if I could only have one (thankfully, not the case).

The chameleon is way sharper handling than the scout 290 I had before it (30mm shorter chainstays, 2 deg steeper head angle). But the scout was so stable in fast carving corners and on descents, and much better on steep stuff than the SC.

I took my jump bike (octane one zircus, 26" wheels, fast 2.1 tyres) around our local XC trails yesterday though and it makes the chameleon feel like a tank. So fast handling, so light, lots of fun through the rollers but climbed like crap and felt really unstable at speed.

Everything is a compromise - a 27.5" wheel hardtail is probably a good place to be.

Ive just built up a clockwork evo 27.5 with dt wheels 2.4 tyres etc, its really quick and covers ground easily but is really good fun and wants to be thrown all over the place, cant recommend it enough..

Cheers mate. That’s the current direction of travel.

That Orange definitely looks a good option for what you’re after

I feel that my Zero AM would fit the bill. They’ve increased the reach a bit on the latest models and slackened the head angle (but I’ve gone slacker still with a -2 deg headset). I’m 5’10.5” with long limbs on a medium which is 455mm reach at sag (436mm static), with 420mm chainstays.

It’s very light for a bike that can ride gnarly stuff (about 27lbs with pretty heavy duty parts). Really immediate pedalling and response. Not the comfiest!

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When I tested the Zero AM and 29 back to back the comfort factor was one of the things that swing it for me. I can only afford one good bike and with 2.5" tyres and 29" wheels I felt a little less fatigued but the bike was still great fun on the twisty technical trails at Inners. I have no regrets almost a year later and I do more jumps and drops then ever before. I'm still crap at them but I'm happy having a go. Being able to pick and mix from Bird when ordering also means all I've changed in the last year is the chain and bar grips and Bird were really helpful in the whole process from demoing to ordering. The only issue I had was a loose token in the forks, I emailed very late in the day and had an answer first thing the following day.