Sleeping bag for bike packing. Yawn 400g vs 200g of down?

The 200 is very thin, but used with a down jacket and thermal bottoms I've been (reasonably) comfy  when bottles have frozen so I guess -2 at least. Summer in Cornwall shouldn't be a prob.

That said we go as a family of four so 4 times 200g is quite a weight penalty, compared to you on your own.

Depends on the down as well. 200g of PHD down vs 400g of Alpkit down... All things being equal, a 400g fill down bag is a bit overkill for Cornwall at the height of summer. The 200g one plus some baselayer 'jammies' should do unless the apocalypse/el nino etc screws things up...

Its very personal.  I sleep cold and use a -5C rated  bag even in summer.  Even then I am cold in Scotland sometimes.  You can always open up the bag and stick bits out if too warm.  If too cold its miserable.  this is even with clothes on

I tend to use a Mountain Equipment Xero 250 bag for spring through to autumn and when combining it with a synthetic pullover it covers me down to low single digit temperatures in a bivvy bag. If I were in the market for another bag I’d be looking for a similar fill weight at the highest fill power I can afford.

A quick Google search throws up (at about the same price as the Pipedream 400) a Sea to Summit Spark SpI bag at £236 which should give you more than enough range for what you’re after.

https://www.ldmountaincentre.com/camping-c13/sleeping-c56/sleeping-bags-c91/sea-to-summit-spark-spi-reg-p40190

I think it depends on your sleeping mat. If you've got a high r rating, 4 or higher then probably ok, especially if you have a down jacket. But if your mat is a low rating r then you will be cold. Don't underestimate/ignore how much warmth comes/lost from what you are sleeping on, rather than in.

I'm with tjagain, get the 400g and get a good night's sleep. V usable in a cool British summer and spring / autumn. Open it up if its really warm.

I found the Pipedream 400 cold even with a down jacket at temps around 4'. I now have a 600 which is great.

Also bear in mind the bags are quite short. The standard bag is 1.9m which I though would be fine as I'm 1.82. But when you pull the cord to make the hood tight around your head it makes the bag much shorter. I'd definitely get the long version if you are taller than about 1.75m

Get the 400 and a good night's sleep! Not imo. You'll probably boil and have a shit nights sleep.

Think layers, just as you would for any activity.

So get the 200, but as above, get a good mat, not just air filled, and a light weight down jacket. You'll want the down jacket in the evenings anyway sitting out and then if cold sleep in it.

Then get a quilt to extend the 200 into autumn.

Buy a decent 200 - 300g bag. Lighterer, warmerer, more compacterer though more expensiver... I have a selection of very high quality (ME and PHD) bags and use 200g and 300g bags for summer, 500g for 3 season and 750g - 1000g for winter. I also have a full exped bag that's lived in the wardrobe since I last used it in anger in the late 1980's.

Cheap is usually heavy, bulky and not as warm. Expensive is lighter, more compact, warmer and well - expensive. All require decent mats and keeping dry.

Plus 1 for the really lightweight duvet as well. Great for sitting around in and extends the bag's rating. Mine is a Haglof's Essens (IIRC) and weighs ~180g.

Interesting thread as I'm also in the market for a lightweight sleeping bag.

Anyone got any experience of these? Look good for the money

https://www.planetx.co.uk/i/q/SBZAD200/zastrugi-darksky-200-down-sleeping-bag

There's a few others in the range if more warmth needed

I've got an alpkit pipedream 200 bag.

I alway have thermals and a down jacket if I'm on my bike.

I sleep cold and have been chilly in the middle of summer.

If I'm in trousers, my mates are often in shorts.

Quality of down makes a huge difference..I was pretty happy with my alpkit Pipedream 400 except my missus then got a ridiculous bargain rock n run own brand Yangri sleeping bag for £100 after a PSA on here.
Same weight of down (400g) but hugely, hugely warmer. I was blown away by the quality and if they had not sold out I would have bought another one instantly for myself because it was so clearly superior.

And that Yangri, though v..cheap due to discount, is still a budget bag, and not anything posh in any way.(e.g. PHD)

If this is something you will use to regularly, and want it to be both ultralight and warm, then I would definitely spend the cash and get the best quality down you can even if it feels really expensive to you. I will probably but something to replace the alpkit 400 bit too far down the tracks so buy cheap buy twice in this case.

I've got both 200 and 400 Pipedreams, I usually get 5 months out of the 200 over summer, 400 for the rest of the year.

Comfort ratings and how they perform in the real world will always vary from person to person, but some general points of advice:
*Use a properly insulated mat. Realistically, a mat is never going to be too warm, but it's easy to lose a lot of heat through a poorly insulated one. There's a pretty helpful article here on R-values to help you choose something appropriate: https://ultralightoutdoorgear.co.uk/r-value-explained-i206

*Take some dry clothes to sleep in and don't lose heat by evaporation as your sweaty riding clothes dry out. I tend to use a set of long legged/sleeved merino base layers for this

*Don't wear an insulated jacket in the sleeping bag. The aim is to use your body heat to warm the bag. If you're chilly, drape the jacket over the outside of the bag to add an extra layer of insulation. I find draping it over my legs can be surprisingly beneficial (instinct tells me to cover my core, but...).

*Still chilly? Add a woolly hat, a buff or similar

Split the difference and find a bag with 300g?

I've got a cheap synthetic bag rated to 8C ish and it's Ok, but kinda on it's limit even in summer in an exposed location. Really though +200g isn't going to be noticed in terms of kit weight so I'd always round up unless you're racing, mines 750g and that's light and compact enough not to ever be a bother. I think when you get to summer / 2 season sorts of weights synthetic starts to make more sense as any drawback of the weight/bulk slowing you down is offset by not having to be so precious about keeping it dry and aired.

Have you tried a quilt? With a decent mat they can save a chunk of weight and easier to regulate your temperature as there's no zips so you can just kick it off your legs if needed.

Mountain Equipment Helium 250, really nice bag, not insanely expensive, very well designed. Comfort limit 2˚C. It uses duck rather than goose down, which saves some dosh, but it works the same as a goose down bag with the same fill power. Much better hood and general design than the Alpkit bags ime and some really neat touches like a magnetic fastener. Very well designed hood. Edit: It's about 100g heavier than the Pipedream 200, but warmer and overall, I think, a better bag.

https://www.mountain-equipment.co.uk/collections/mens-sleeping-bags/products/helium-250

I've used one of the Sea To Summit Spark bags linked above and I thought it was better on paper than in real life. It has a really fine, snag-prone zip which annoyed me and it was cut very close which I found restrictive and the hood wasn't great either. It was sort of annoyingly 'almost very good'.

I know it's stating the obvious, but down efficiency is part the fill power of the down, but also the ratio of fill weight to down compartment volume. Really high fill power down is amazing stuff, think 900+ and above. It sort of explodes when it's unstuffed, erm.. PHD's 1000 fill power stuff:

Loads of good for thought. I’ll investigate the Helium 250 and maybe even PHD. I’m going cheap on the tent as I’m not sure what I want or how much more use it will get. The bag will get used for sure. So the aim is to buy once. The last bag was bought in 1993. It’s had at least 300 nights use, possibly many more.

I fancy top notch down but I don’t want the fabric to be to dedicate

Hiring a summer down bag is another option.

We hired ours for a trip.

We did not really want to invest so much in an expensive summer weight bag but did  invest buying some winter bags.

We hired Yeti bags from Expedition Hire.

I see they now hire PHD bags now as well.

It's not particularly cheap ,but maybe worth it of you think it's a one off adventure.

Ours was in Europe.

Gulp not sure I realised quite how much a shelling bag could cost……

Eye watering... But £'s does equal lbs in this case. Whether that's important to you or not depends on how many £'s you're willing to spend and how many lbs you're willing to carry.

I've also got a Xero 200g down bag from Mountain Equipment, and I would use it in this situation without thinking twice.  It is close to a 3 season bag, and none of this sleeping in your jacket nonsense either.

Rather than the Alpkit I'd have a good root around online and see if there was anything on sale somewhere from a better brand.  Have ROck and Run sold out of everything?

Ditto this as well
https://www.planetx.co.uk/i/q/SBZAD200/zastrugi-darksky-200-down-sleeping-bag
- while its likely warmish, it's also hugeish, so how do you quantify value for money?

The helium 250 looks like the best bet at the moment. It’s in between the Pipedreams for weight and warmth. Not much eye comes close at that price point. The duck down clearly make a difference. I’ve tracked down a long for about 200. Needing a long bag is a constraints when bargain hunting

Planet X could do with a bit more care listing. It claims a total weight of 580g with a fill of 400g. They presumably mean 200g of fill. But you then wonder what else is wrong in the listing. If i was shorter I might give it a go

Could I just point out the ethical aspect to this?  Most down is cruel in how its collected.  Even supposed " cruelty free" or ethical down has its criticisms.

Down also needs much more careful handling than synthetics

Future trips might be in UK hills like the Pennine Bridleway

Depends how hot you run, or how high you fancy camping at. The thinner bag could restrict you to only 1 season, and 200g extra is not much in the scheme of things, unless you are an ultra-endurance racer. Especially if you end up taking extra clothes to compensate.

You could probably manage with the 200g and a silk sleeping bag liner, but I've had cold nights in the Dales even in mid-summer.

tjagainFull Member
Could I just point out the ethical aspect to this?

Agreed, I bought a Mountain Equipment bag as they just a scheme called Down Codex which seemed much better that RDS certified Down.  I seem to remember Down Codex includes unannounced mandatory farm inspections whereas RDS was just a trust based system where the farms in China could be doing what they want. (Such as live plucking)

If I was buying again I'd forgoe my 3 season down bag (I don't think it has a hydrophobic coating so would be rubbish if it got wet) and buy a thinner synthetic and pair it with a packable Down quilt when extra warmth was needed.

I've had a 200 and a 350 which I still have. 200 was inadequate everywhere apart from the southern end of France for me, I was never warm enough. The 350 is about right, I can boost it with a jacket in chilly periods.

I would describe myself as a slim build, and used high insulation mats. Always use a silk liner.

The 200 was a Rab, the 350 a PhD.

The PhD is expensive but is superbly made, has good credentials and will last many many years looked after. I never expect to buy another bag. In those terms, very good value.

I recently got a RAB neutrino 400.

Used it bike packing in Dcotland at the end of May.  Overnight air temp was probably around 6 or 7c.  Maybe 4 or 5 one eve.

I was toasty warm - bordering on too warm. T shirt and duds only.  Think I would have been OK with a 200. But didn't want to be buying 2 bags so decided the 400 was overall the more versatile.

I'm sure it depends how warm or cold you sleep. I sleep warm - still only have a thin bedspread on the bed even in winter, and heating is never more that 19.5c max during the times in the house , and defo down lower at night.

My mate meanwhile had a 200 Thermarest bag. And was cold - was OK once he put several layers of clothing on.

Synthetic isn’t looking too bad in terms of warmth to weight. The concern with synthetic is durability. Synthetic insulation seems to lose its loft faster. Some times really fast even in quite posh products.

Again thanks for all the input

I think you said Bikepacking right up thread. The one thing about Bikepacking is there's not much space. Synthetic is usually at least 2x the volume of down and as above, down quality dictates the volume and weight of a down bag.

Could I just point out the ethical aspect to this? Most down is cruel in how its collected. Even supposed ” cruelty free” or ethical down has its criticisms.

To be fair, pretty much all decent outdoors brands use down that's subject to ethical certification, arguably the gold standard is ME's Down Codex and it's a good place to start if you want to understand more about how down is produced. Effectively - Eider is an exception - it's a by-product of the meat industry.

https://www.thedowncodex.co.uk

You're more likely to find questionable down in mass-produced bedding and duvets. I'm not saying all down used in good quality sleeping bags is perfect, but it's about as good as you're going to get. If you object to killing animals for food of course, no down is going to be acceptable. Eider duck down, fwiw, is collected from used Eider duck nests after they've been used and abandoned, but very rare and expensive as a result. There's a brilliant Guardian story describing the process if you're interested:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jul/19/eiderdown-harvesting-iceland-eider-duck

Finally, well cared for down will last decades. I had an old ME Ligtline I was still using after 30 years. Ironically it was the synthetic fabrics that were starting to deteriorate last time I looked. And in sustainable terms, synthetic fills have their own issues. Basically petro-chemical products, plastic in other words. They don't last as long in useful use, don't work as well and recycling options for synthetic sleeping bag insulation don't exist as far as I'm aware. By contrast, re-purposed down is becoming more common with brands like TNF and ME producing bags using the stuff.

So yeah, it's nuanced and certainly not as simple as down=bad, synthetic=good. Presumably if geese were simply humanely kept and allowed to die of old age before being plucked, that would be optimal, but probably not commercially viable.

Space was mentioned, and makes as big a diffreence as weight if you're actually carrying the thing.  My pit packs to a bag about the size of two tins of coke - synthetic does a lot of things well but it won't do that.

Never store your sleeping back in the stuff sac, be that down or synthetic, if you want it to last

just spent 2 nights in the lakes,it was pouring down all night at seathwaite and the new planet X 400g down bag was way too warm, had to eep it open all night

If it's only for this summer why not just go for a cheap synthetic bag and then buy a decent down filled bag if you actually decide to go camping in winter.

I've got a cheapo Synthetic single season thing I bought from Blacks for about £20, it packs pretty small (the main reason I got it TBF) and is adequate (IMO/IME) for ~late April through to ~mid September-ish if supplemented with a bivvy bag on cold/wet nights, and/or in a pinch a down jacket (again cheap from decathlon). The benefit of a cheapy synthetic bag is you're not going to be precious about it and if it does get damaged or soaked through you can shrug, tut and go buy a replacement for relative peanuts.

While it's hot, lugging about extra (expensive) insulation you don't need just seems bonkers to me.

200g quilt would afford the capacity to shake all the down to the topside and thus give a level of insulation approaching a 400g bag. As others have said with an insulated hoody as well you should be fine with the lighter option.