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Am I being too sceptical or does that Wiggo quote read a bit like "they told me it was OK to do it"?
[quote=chakaping ]Am I being too sceptical or does that Wiggo quote read a bit like "they told me it was OK to do it"?
The "[i]a big boy done it and ran away[/i]" defence?
Oh the one had he does say that, but then goes on to defend Freeman, who’s alleged poor record keeping is supposedly the root of all this trouble.
Until a body is found there's no murder, or something like that
I don't know, maybe the fact its a banned substance might have something to say about it... But I'm sure it doesn't really do a thing...
You could have just said that without the sneering sarcasm. It makes you come across as a bit of a bully.
Not sure that is so implausible, in itself."they told me it was OK to do it"
Assuming he has a bit of asthma (I don't know and I suspect none of us does)
Doc says, "wiggo, we're going to give you a drug to make sure you don't have any asthma during this tour - it's not just an inhaler so we need a TUE for it. oh, by the way, it might even help you drop a couple of pounds while we're at it, so it's all good !"
If I were wigggo, I'd say "is it dangerous? Is it legal?"
Doc might say (in good faith) "yeah, it's safe as a one-off. We do use the stuff in patients, even if it's not for asthma and we use inhaled versions of the same stuff all the time for asthma. It's not allowed unless you have a TUE but if you do have one then, yeah, we can use it"
Yeah, he might then ask "why not an inhaled one?" but for all we know he's already used those before and has still had occasional problems. "we think this is more effective and should guarantee no wheezing in the race"
Course they could all be in the know on the whole game from the start. Who knows ?
If I was wiggo I'd be insisting that they release all my medical files, (GP, consultants etc, not just the lost Sky ones) so that we can have confirmation that I've been diagnosed asthmatic for years, I've tried conventional management and it hasn't worked in extreme circumstances and that relevant questions were asked & answered as part of the multiple TUE processes)
You could have just said that without the sneering sarcasm. It makes you come across as a bit of a bully.
Nah, condescending more like... and stating the bloody obvious 😉
Seriously, you didn't know it was a banned substance? Did it not make you think (even a ittle) that maybe they had a reason for banning it?
Plus, didn't you ask the exact same question about 8 months ago on this thread? Somebody certainly did, and then basically said so what if Millar and Rasmussen say it works they're both cheats and liars (I paraphrase, but you get the gist). I'd you pegged as just another sky fanboi...
metalheart, I suspect the banned status is probably originally from a rider protection standpoint. Multiple doses, prolonged use are probably VERY bad for an individual (joint injections to help you keep competing and worsening damage while you do so) and also maybe that they can mask presence of other steroidal agents in testing (especially years ago when tests maybe weren't very sophisticated)
Yeah, I know it's banned without a TUE, but then until a few years ago, so were a number of inhalers, which are now legal, which is one of the reasons that the number of TUEs has dropped.
Condescending? Sneering? Patronising? Take your pick, none of them are anything to be proud of.
If I were wigggo, I'd say "is it dangerous? Is it legal?"
You're assuming a degree of intelligence that most bike riders (and in fact a lot of elite sportspeople) simply don't have.
In the background of most elite sports are people who's job is to look for loopholes, examine data in minute detail, manage situations and people and logistics and generally (with a few exceptions), they're very good at it bar occasional human errors.
At the front end is the actual famous athlete and they are, almost invariably, the weak link.
That time that Lewis Hamilton tweeted a picture of a load of data readings from the car and all the other teams went "ooh, thanks very much!" However in the background, some of the engineers and designers had found a loophole that enabled them to split a diffuser (was that Mercedes or Red Bull??) while still staying just about within the letter of the regs.
Idiot up front, genius in the backroom.
It's the same with most sports. You'd be amazed at how many athletes don't actually know a good percentage of the rules governing their particular sport, they just get coached/told to do x y and z and assume that the back room crew have done all their work properly.
Not sure that is so implausible, in itself.
It doesn’t sound that implausible but would be an incredibly naiive view of it. In the climate of the sport at the time Wiggins would have known exactly what he was being given and the benefits and abuse within the peloton would be common knowledge.
Yeah, I know it's banned without a TUE
IIRC its only banned during racing (hence the issue that if it was triamcinolone administering it on a race day would lead to a 2 year ban (and his Tour and OGM being removed)).
Condescending? Sneering? Patronising? Take your pick, none of them are anything to be proud of.
Who said I was proud? I'm ****-ing [i]exasperated[/i]. Fanboi's fanboiing is so 2011/2 😀
Don't get me wrong, MrB - it's not what I suspect was the case. I'm using plausible in the sense of arguable in a court
Conversation equally could've been "wiggo, I think we should put you on triamcinolone for the Tour"
"- yeah, good one. I've always fancied a ban!"
"no, honest, I think we can claim TUE for asthma and I know this consultant who'll sign anything"
"really? What are we waiting for?"
Ultimately it doesn't matter if he was a willing participant or duped by his team - their record-keeping should be sufficient to explain the situation
I suspect the banned status is probably originally from a rider protection standpoint.
tbh, I'm relying on the hearsay of known (convicted?) dopers (Millar & Rasmussen). They seem pretty adamant that it works...
Pro road racing has hardly changed, they're just more subtle with PEDs now.
Just to be pedantic, it's not 'now', it was six years ago. Since then the number of TUEs issued in elite cycling has fallen drastically, so I'd be a little wary of using 2011 events to paint a picture of the current situation.For context, some of those will have been issued in extreme circumstances when riders undergo emergency operations - Luke Rowe after he shattered his leg recently for example - when the anaesthetics, pain killers etc breach doping regs but are clearly needed.
Just providing some context.
Sure, realise it was 'then' rather than now but this story never changes does it. Clean isn't clean in the sense that you or I would train and race. And I was being a bit flippant, as I think many are about the farce that pro racing and athletics seem to be. In this case 'then' was under the same team management, the same purer than pure marketing line - and the same Froome who's now winning 2 grand tours in the same season. I hope Froome is clean but he's in a world where 'then' says trust has to be earned. Many take the default position that the dominant performers year after year are on some form of sauce and the Sky/Wiggins/Dr the dog ate my notes etc story has just added to the reasons why.
TBH I don't think we need to rely on hearsay or give Millar any more axe grinding opportunities.
The evidence as it stood was already enough to take the shine off Wiggo - and Sutton has just confirmed what they'd left us to assume anyway.
No need to make any more of it IMO. People understand Sky better now and can make their own minds up as to whether they deserve any sympathy.
Sprinkled in the timeline
2010 Wiggins has disappointing first season with Sky
2011 Sky sign up ex Rabobank doctor Geert Leinders
2011 Jiffy bag delivery to Dauphine
2011 Wiggins TUE for tour
2012 Wiggins TUE for tour
2012 Wiggins wins tour and Olympic TT
October 2012 Sky suddenly discover Leinders might have skeletons in his closet, let him go
2013 Wiggins TUE for the Giro. A race famous for it's pollen problems, iconic pictures of Andy Hampsten riding through banks of the stuff, always a worry the sheer amount of pollen might shut those mountain passes.
2015 Leinders gets lifetime ban for being a doping doctor. Honestly, who knew?
Anyone thinking Wiggins wasn't 100% in on it is either charitable or naïve. He'd worked with Sir Dave B for years at BC. He was publicly so vehemently anti doping he'd want to know everything about everything he took.
I don't know, maybe the fact its a banned substance might have something to say about it... But I'm sure it doesn't really do a thing...
I'm totally undecided on this case but you do know that as a rule then drugs are banned, being banned does not make a drug performance enhancing.
Or should I be getting stoned and coked up to steal all the local koms?
is there objective evidence that triamcinolone is a PED?
Yes
😀 (although cold air can do it too)A race famous for it's pollen problems, iconic pictures of Andy Hampsten riding through banks of the stuff, always a worry the sheer amount of pollen might shut those mountain passes
Sprinkled in the timeline2010 Wiggins has disappointing first season with Sky
not sure his career started in 2010
Or should I be getting stoned and coked up to steal all the local koms?
I believe tramadol is the drug of choice for that these days. As used by Sky... 😉
you do know that as a rule then drugs are banned, being banned does not make a drug performance enhancing.
Tell Mr Sutton that. 😛
not sure his career started in 2010
Correct, I believe he was being trained by BC whilst still at Garmin though... (but where he wasn't being prescribed triamcinolone for his asthma...)
Or should I be getting stoned and coked up to steal all the local koms?
In the right doses and the right sport it is likely to help.
Alcohol for example was used in shooting to increase performance and it does seem backed by evidence. In the right quantity it would help admittedly its quite easy to "overdose" and watch performance drop.
I would think things are a bit more sophisticated than there being just a single drug of choice. Different drugs for different situations and purposes, surely?
I watched about 5 stages in and around the Pyrenees in 2007. Bradley wasn't troubling the front of the race in any shape or form. I have a photograph of him well down in the autobus on one of the climbing stages.
And he went home after the Aubisque stage when the whole team was withdrawn due to a failed test.
Bradley, sky and BC are coming across as shifty, evasive, and unreliable - well done guys.
An interesting article with Matt Lawton the journo behind the 'jiffgygate' story...
https://cyclingtips.com/2017/11/story-behind-story-journalist-exposed-team-sky/
Interestingly confirms that the allegation was that it was triamcinolone... oops!
Also, reinforces my previous points about the sky bullshit excuses...
I still can't take this expose seriously when it was broken by that beacon of truth and light the daily mail.
When all you report is lies and misdirection, all day everyday, about everything. when you hate cyclists.when you hate public funding. When you hate murdoch who sponsors successful publicly funded cyclists, and your chief sports writer suddenly come across a national scandal in cycling!!! ...and 2 years later it all fades away to nothing due to lack of evidence. funny that.
goes to put tinfoil hat back on. makes you think etc.
Shoot the messenger.
TUE 'scandal' broken by Russian hackers... can't be true either (except of course they've been forced to admit it).
Lack of evidence produced by sky is why it fizzled out. No medical records 😯 . Breach of protocol and maybe subject to GMC investigation. Doc 'too ill' to give evidence and retired out. Drug supply company refuses to cooperate (isn't licenced and supplies other sports).
And don't ask about Lieanders role in all this, especially now he's been banned for life.
If you are comfortable with all the lies and admissions of pushing TUE for marginal gains (as opposed to medical need as intended use), then sure it's all because the daily mail hates Murdoch.
More Koolaid anyone?
Doc 'too ill' to give evidence
This for me. How ill would you have to suddenly become?
Interestingly confirms that the allegation was that it was triamcinolone... oops!
But not one shread of evidence that it was !
I've no idea what the truth of the matter is but without proper legally verifiable evidence its all just blah blah.
The basic problem is can you really believe that any sports person is 100% clean? If you look under enough rocks there are problems
This for me. How ill would you have to suddenly become?
Not ill enough that you can't attend a World Cup event in Manchester:
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link[/url]
TUE question: Rider A gets a TUE and lets say there's 50mg of an otherwise banned substance in it.
surely that for that substance to have performance gains much, much more over a course of time would need to have been taken than the amount noted in the TUE?
'Whistleblower evidence'. An interesting read, not as damning as expected... 😆
Not much of a whistleblower. Blowing the whistle on perfectly legal practises and that "no rules were broken".
😆
TUE question: Rider A gets a TUE and lets say there's 50mg of an otherwise banned substance in it.
surely that for that substance to have performance gains much, much more over a course of time would need to have been taken than the amount noted in the TUE?
If that 50mg dose helps you quickly lose a couple of stubborn kg just before a grand tour then it's a huge gain. And if it sticks around in your system for a few weeks providing an inflammatory effect then all the better for recovery during the race.
LOLOLOLOL"never had an injection, apart from I've had my vaccinations, and on occasion I've been put on a drip, when I've come down with diarrhoea or something or have been severely dehydrated"
perfectly legal practises
And yet they just had to send a courier and lie their arses off. For [i]perfectly[/i] legal? 😯
Yeah, yeah, we're all cleanz now... with our needles, TUEs, doping doctors, strategic triamcinolone use and [i]zero [/i]tolerance...
And yet they just had to send a courier and lie their arses off. For perfectly legal?
You seem to have a bee in your bonnet about all of this ? Like me you know absolutely "nothing" apart from what is already in the public domain, all you do is keep on regurgitating the boring same old same old as if its some startling revelation. Why are you so desperate to believe the whole Wiggins Sky doping conspiracy ? And even if it was all proved to be true..... So what !!
So, turns out I’m not the only one that thinks it was dodgy practice....
I assumed this had already been brought up today but obviously not? I assumed it had as this is huge in its implications isn't it??
the report is just saying what was obvious. team sky used TUEs to gain a performance advantage
team sky use TUEs to gain a performance advantage
FIFY
Professional cycling teams use TUEs to gain a performance advantage
Fify
Professional sportsmen use TUEs to gain a performance advantage
FIFY
and some amateurs 😉
Report from WADA or UKAD slamming Sky might be worth reading. Report from puffed up grandstanding MPs who listen to a few witnesses but don't uncover anything new - not so much.
States the bleeding obvious, and you end up with headlines like 'Bradley Wiggins Drugs Shame' on the front of the Express.
Glad to see Mo Farah getting mentioned at the same time. Time to remove both his, Wiggins and Brailsford knighthood, or were they awarded for services to the drug industry?
The report is going a bit further than highlighting tues [edit as I am a slow typer]. It's clearly stating they have good reason to believe jiffybaggate contained steroids. It's clearly stating that team sky crossed an ethical line that team sky had set themselves. It re-emphasises the link between BC and Team Sky.
It doesn't bring up anything new but it does bring it all in the public eye. the concern here for me is not about team sky but about how this report is going to affect perception of BC given the link between the two and what that means for future funding.
Why do that?
Professional sports team in using everything they can legally to gain an advantage shocker.
You may as well splash every team in every level of professional sports up there, and every competitive cyclist here that uses caffiene, beetroot, salbutamol, and so on. The principle is the same. Whille they are working within the rules theres nothing wrong with what they are doing whether you believe its ethical or not.
Sky - alledgedly - found a way to use allowed meds with a side effect of performance gain.
Would you suggest I stop having a pre race espresso?
Sky – alledgedly – found a way to use allowed meds with a side effect of performance gain.
But it's not, found a way is it, it's falsely applied for TUEs to allow administration of banned medication.
mixed feelings. Disappointed, but not surprised that marginal gains went to all levels (and I'm not looking into the eyes of the olympians either, I don't necessarily want to see what's behind them either) - but they were all just the width of a tyre the right side of legal. It was the constant professions that they would be doing it 'cleaner than clean' that haunts now.
One things for sure though - I'm not taking lessons in ethics from a group of people who lie for a living. Publish the report on a side of a bus and we'll take it for what its worth.
Sky – alledgedly – found a way to use allowed meds with a side effect of performance gain.
Sky - allegedly - found a way to use PEDs and stay within the rules.
I don't think the report says much more than that, apart from a couple of speculative comments.
I wonder how may Sky jerseys will be quietly tucked away in draws today.
One things for sure though – I’m not taking lessons in ethics from a group of people who lie for a living. Publish the report on a side of a bus and we’ll take it for what its worth
Exactly what I was thinking. When MPs and the press start to talk about ethics I stop listening.
It’s clearly stating they have good reason to believe jiffybaggate contained steroids.
Erm, all i've seen/heard is that a disgruntled ex employee who got sacked and had his name dragged through the shit said it contained something more than claimed.
it’s falsely applied for TUEs to allow administration of banned medication.
That just means the TUE process is/was easily broken/short circuited, which we knew anyway. As is almost the entire PED classification process.
All this really boils down in newsworthy terms, is that Skys PR was a bit over zealous.
One things for sure though – I’m not taking lessons in ethics from a group of people who lie for a living.
So much this. I'd rather have Pat McQuaid giving his verdict - at least he'd have some idea of how the sport works.
This is just the equivalent of having a stage of the TdF with commentary from the Gogglebox families.
I’d rather have Pat McQuaid giving his verdict
"They paid the correct bribe. No further action. the failed test never happened."
Erm, all i’ve seen/heard is that a disgruntled ex employee who got sacked and had his name dragged through the shit said it contained something more than claimed.
G'day Bruce... 😉
wonder if the sun is skating on thin ice there ?
Professional sports team in using everything they can legally to gain an advantage shocker.
Yeah but Sky are ethical, remember?
We know Sky applied for and got TUE's but what is the evidence that it was for PE. That's not clear to me.
The problem is that work of the committee is pretty superficial. It has no resources to investigate, just call a few witnesses, ask for information etc. This report tells us nothing new in terms of evidence of wrongdoing. So their findings are all grandstanding over ethics. The press love it because these reports tend to be pretty simplistic, speculative, full of criticism and generally support some headlines that would get them sued normally (see above).
As an aside, the resources of the committee are not just focused on doping in professional sport, here's their current workload.
<li id="ctl00_ctl00_FormContent_SiteSpecificPlaceholder_PageContent_WhatsOnModulesNew_ctl00_rptSingle_ctl00_ctlPages_repLinks_ctl01_liItem">BBC pay
<li id="ctl00_ctl00_FormContent_SiteSpecificPlaceholder_PageContent_WhatsOnModulesNew_ctl00_rptSingle_ctl00_ctlPages_repLinks_ctl02_liItem">Live music
<li id="ctl00_ctl00_FormContent_SiteSpecificPlaceholder_PageContent_WhatsOnModulesNew_ctl00_rptSingle_ctl00_ctlPages_repLinks_ctl03_liItem">Appointment of the Chair of the Charity Commission
<li id="ctl00_ctl00_FormContent_SiteSpecificPlaceholder_PageContent_WhatsOnModulesNew_ctl00_rptSingle_ctl00_ctlPages_repLinks_ctl04_liItem">Sport governance
<li id="ctl00_ctl00_FormContent_SiteSpecificPlaceholder_PageContent_WhatsOnModulesNew_ctl00_rptSingle_ctl00_ctlPages_repLinks_ctl05_liItem">The Social Impact of Participation in Culture and Sport
<li id="ctl00_ctl00_FormContent_SiteSpecificPlaceholder_PageContent_WhatsOnModulesNew_ctl00_rptSingle_ctl00_ctlPages_repLinks_ctl06_liItem">Impact of Brexit on UK Creative industries, tourism and The Single Digital Market
<li id="ctl00_ctl00_FormContent_SiteSpecificPlaceholder_PageContent_WhatsOnModulesNew_ctl00_rptSingle_ctl00_ctlPages_repLinks_ctl07_liItem">The work of the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport
<li id="ctl00_ctl00_FormContent_SiteSpecificPlaceholder_PageContent_WhatsOnModulesNew_ctl00_rptSingle_ctl00_ctlPages_repLinks_ctl08_liItem">Fake news
<li id="ctl00_ctl00_FormContent_SiteSpecificPlaceholder_PageContent_WhatsOnModulesNew_ctl00_rptSingle_ctl00_ctlPages_repLinks_ctl09_liItem">Combatting doping in sport
Jack of all Trades etc.
EDIT: We need a DCMS enquiry into website formatting - is the UK falling behind the rest of the world? 😉
Wow. The Sun will be holding an amnesty on its Wiggo-themed cut-out sideburns next.
So their findings are all grandstanding over ethics.
At best, the team were/ are pushing the rules to their absolute limit, and their excuses were no better than "sorry sir, my dog ate my homework", collective amnesia, and a convenient sudden onset of illness. While it hasn't been proven beyond doubt that Sky have broken the rules, it seems entirely fair to challenge them over ethics when that was their self-proclaimed USP. It feels akin to Mr Loophole getting a motorist off a speeding charge.
It's not "iwthin the rules" if you're applying for a TUE to treat an illness/symptom that you don't actualy have.
It's flat out cheating.
It’s not “iwthin the rules” if you’re applying for a TUE to treat an illness/symptom that you don’t actualy have.
It’s flat out cheating.
I agree. All I'm saying is that hasn't been proven beyond reasonable doubt. The whole thing stinks though.
Would you suggest I stop having a pre race espresso?
As long as you don't exceed eight of them, you should be okay... or at least you would have been back when it was a listed substance. It was being monitored last year as well. Maybe some sort of beetrootchino?
I'd rather finish last than drink that beetroot shit. I tried it once 'as an experiment' and promptly set several PB's on my commute home; some may say it was due to more efficient oxygen transport to my muscles, but the reality was i had to get home as fast as possible so i could clean my teeth and get the taste out of my mouth.
Without going into the report in depth, it sounds like a load of accusations have been made. No new evidence has come out - they don’t know either way what was in the mystery package. With other drugs / Tues it seems Sky were technically in the rules, but perhaps they were outside the spirit that Team sly themselves set as their aims.
Not a huge story here and the papers are very sensationalist on the back of this.
Not a huge story here and the papers are very sensationalist on the back of this.
Hence my primary concern being the perception of BC in general as Sky is so strongly linked to them. If it ends up affecting funding it will be a shame.
The did he, didnt he etc. will never be acertained so it will just be dug up every now and again to suit peoples agendas.
It’s not “iwthin the rules” if you’re applying for a TUE to treat an illness/symptom that you don’t actualy have.
It’s flat out cheating.
Nothing in the report said that. Just suggested by a credible but "anonymous soure !!
I’d rather finish last than drink that beetroot shit.
Was that the concentrated stuff? On the grounds I like beetroot thought I would try some.
Struggled even finishing it which considering it was a just about a shot says something.
[i]joebristol wrote:[/i]
No new evidence has come out
All the hearings and evidence presented were already in the public domain. All that's happened today is that a load of people who don't know much about the subject and have a somewhat dubious grasp on the concept of ethics have issued a report giving their opinions on the evidence.
It's a strange one, i think Sky are their own worst enemy, they stated at the started they wanted to be placed on a pedestal, they stated they would race clean and race to win so when something like this happens it backfires on them badly and is a PR nightmare.
Yet a team like Astana, who have had rider after rider banned, can only be read about on page 9 of Cycling Weekly.
I think Brailsford thinks he was going right up to the ethical line, whereas everyone else thinks he has gone over it.
What i don't understand is Froome, he knows when he is in the lead of a grand tour, there is no way he is not being tested at the end of the say, he knows that as he has asthma and prior TUE for the condition, there is no way they are not testing the levels of his asthma medication, surely the gain from it cannot be worth the massive risk knowing he'd be tested and why only that day, he was fine the days before and after? Not saying it was right just that risk seems to much higher than reward?
In any sport where actual skill is a distant second to the ability and will to destroy yourself over an extended period of time, drugs and doping are bound to be prevalent. I'm not saying there is no skill in road racing, but it is a long way behind endurance in importance. As such, I am not a fan of endurance events as a spectacle because they are almost all boring to watch and the ever-present doubt is there.
Team Sky are going to be hoist by their own petard, I'm afraid. Had all this been Astana (I'm sure they would be using the TUE system as well), then no one would be anywhere near as animated as they are. It's similar to the Tiger Woods fall from grace as he'd always marketed himself as Mr Clean and was hypocritical and aloof about his fellow competitors when they turned out to have feet of clay. Pride coming before a fall and all that. Admittedly a lot of people in the golf 'establishment' wanted Woods to fail for even less honourable reasons.
So, by my reckoning, if OJ Simpson played darts professionally, that would be about the most 'honest' sport going.
Ha - I hadn't read the post above mine about Astana when I wrote it!
he knows that as he has asthma and prior TUE for the condition, there is no way they are not testing the levels of his asthma medication,
Froome didn't have a TUE for Salbutamol, because he didn't need one. An Italian (I think) ex-Sky doctor cited in a Cycling News piece conjectured that if Salbutamol wasn't effective in treating his condition, he should have been prescribed a stronger drug for which he would have needed a TUE rather than upping the dose of Salbutamol and potentially going over the limit.
You're correct that he'd have known he would have been tested though, he was in the leader's jersey and the race leader is tested as a matter of course. So either he screwed up and took mammoth quantities of Salbutamol. Or there's a weird physiological explanation. Or you get into tin foil hat conspiracy stuff where Salbutamol is a power performance enhancer and was ingested by a different method despite him knowing he'd be tested.
he knows that as he has asthma and prior TUE for the condition, there is no way they are not testing the levels of his asthma medication, surely the gain from it cannot be worth the massive risk knowing he’d be tested and why only that day, he was fine the days before and after
Which is why I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume there is a genuine reason for the suspicious test result.
I am not naïve and don't think for a second that everyone in the peleton won't be trying to take what they can to increase their performance levels. But I have a hard time using the word 'cheat' for every infraction detected when the scope for industrial-sized cheating has largely been negated today, and is therefore bound to be quite limited.
glad to see the koolaid supplies weren't interrupted by the bad weather.. 😉
sky could have cleared everything up if only they kept medical records of their star rider and used their own employees instead of BC ones. Oh, and not lie at least twice over the bagmans contents. And retire the doctor (who refused to testify on legal grounds). Nothing dosgy at all. All cleanz.
but, yeah, its all grandstanding politicians... Looks like liars can spot other liars... 😂