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So after 1 sore face plant to many I have decided to get a 121 skills session with the good chaps at Dirtschool, on my local trails at Cathkin. At age 48 my days of gettting rad and air are well past, but whilst my general riding ability is not bad, my manuals are awful, indeed my 10 yr old son is better at them than me 🙂
Now I know that these skills are best learned on flats where body weight has to be used to control things, by default,but as a seasonded SPD wearer I havent ridden on flats for 20 yrs. I dont particularly want to swop over from SPD's at all and think that doing so for the training session would give me a whole load of other unknowns and new things, only to go back to SPD's afterwards.
So how easy is it to learn to manual properly while clipped in ?
...and yes, these will be the first questions I ask at the session in a few weeks, but keen to get the learned stw view 🙂
I'd ask them now! The training session I've done (though that was jump focused) insisted on the use of flats.
It would be madness to ride flats for the first time in 20 years at a skills session! However, it's an awful lot easier practising wheelies and manuals and developing correct hopping/jumping technique with flats. Could you just run your SPDs super loose for the session so you can clip out really easily?
Agree with chiefgrooveguru do not wear flats for the training session if you are not used to them.
I made that mistake a while back when on a weekend course with Ed Rock came off at least 4 times over the two days due to using flats instead of SPDs 🙁
If they insist you wear them then try them well in advance. It wasn't compulsory to wear them on the course I did just prefered so I thought I would give them a go (fisrt & last time)
I switched to flats for the first time I went to see Jedi after being clipped in to a mountain bike before spds were invented.
It was the right thing to do and I very rarely switch back.
As Tony said to me, best time to learn to ride flats is with a coach.
With spds, you'll be able to make the bike take the right shapes, but you might find it tricky to do it in the "right" way clipped in.
flyingmonkeycorps - I actually just did, they reckon, rightly that easier with flats by a mile, but understand my situation, so can give it a go with spd's - might take flats with me I guess 🙂
Learn on flats. Transfer skills to SPD.
I was a bit worried when I did a course with Great Rock a few years ago and we were encouraged to use flats. I'd only ever ridden with SPD's so was bricking it but, was the correct decision. You pick it up in no time.
Was amazed how much grip you get from decent pair of pedals/shoes.
The trick with flats is to position your foot, midfoot over the spindle rather than ball of the foot and remember to keep your heels down.
To be honest, if you have a few weeks before the session you could stick some flats on now and if you can just get out for a play on your bike for 15 minutes every single day plus your usual riding then you might get comfy with them in time.
On my training with Clive Forth he said ride with what ever you normally use, which at the time was SPD.
But I found it very hard to commit properly when learning manuals. I quickly swapped over to a pair of flat pedals and was much more at ease.
No idea about the format of your session, but if possible, use SPD for most things and swap over for the manuals.
some good ideas, thanks
I was out trying to do some Manuals last night. I managed about 2 seconds of getting the front wheel up and rolling along in a controlled way. I think part of the learning process is learning to actually loop the bike out and then backing off from there. If I was riding clipping in as I normally. Do I would have a very sore arse today!
I took a pair of v lightweight thin soled trainers with me in my camelback and was able to use them.
Once I get it down (if ever) I'll go back to spd.
If manuals are your objective then you need to be able to jump off the bike at a moment s notice.
Use the pedals you normally use!
Nobody mentioned this yet, but as a long time spd user, I would recommend taking shin guards for the first time out. The pins ripped my legs up something rotten as not used to the flats.
jedi - I kinda hoped you would pop in on this one. Much appreciated.
Whilst I fully get that flats would assist in the balance and weight distribution understanding and implementation, I am so used to SPD's I'd be riding flats like even more of a turkey than normal !
Shirley it makes sense to learn/practise with whatever you'll normally be riding on, not to change your kit about for one coaching session, then go back to the SPDs and then find it harder to apply what you've learned?
I used to be a quite militant flat pedal rider, but a dabble with SPDs a few years ago made me decide it would be an all or nothing thing, either I ride with one or the other... so I switched and I'm pretty happy on SPDs now, I don't think there's anything you can do on flats that you can't on SPDs, OK Perhaps heel-clickers or superman seat-grabs, but we're just talking feet on riding jumps, drops and manuals here so where's the real advantage?
Any skills session where I was compelled to learn stuff on Flats would be of limited value to me because, like the OP, I'd be right back on the clips afterwards...
Whilst I fully get that flats would assist in the balance and weight distribution understanding and implementation
For manuals and wheelies it's just about being able to jump off quickly. However I think Jedi's response is the definitive one!
I learnt the hard way, a very painful lesson with SPD's... looped out manualling with SPD's ... never again.
I'd listen to Tony
Actually, Tony did say to me to use whichever pedals but I had gone down with two different bikes and two different sets of pedals.
Think he must have read my mind about being flat curious at that point. Guess that's why they call him Jedi.
Ive ridden in spds for a long time, mainly because i thought it was best for my knackered knees.
However even though i was told it was best me to use the pedals that i always use, there were some things i was not prepared to even attempt clipped in. im not a skilful rider, but small jumps, rock gardens, small drops, on the wood and even berms i was not prepared to even attempt clipped in.
However since transferring to flats i am now attempting to learn new skills and if i get better at them i may go back to spds to use my newly found skills, although i think i will end up staying on flats!
I was a hardened spud puller. A Dirt School session had me swapping to flat pedals.
Basically my technique was shite, my body position was all wrong and I was hanging too far off the back all the time. Switching to flats forced me to ride more centrally and think about what I was doing with my feet rather than just relying on being stuck to my pedals.
First few rides on flats were a bit sketchy. I kept forgetting and pulling my feet off the pedals but I soon adapted, now while I still think "heels down" as I get to the rough bits it feels natural and I don't worry about my feet coming off the pedals.
I still ride SPD's sometimes but riding with the correct body and foot position that I've learned form riding flats. Its also good to feel comfortable on both types of pedal.
Of course none of this might apply to you Iain as I'm sure your technique is great!
Having said that I wouldn't do a skills course on unfamiliar pedals but maybe be prepared to think about whether swapping to flats might make learning something new (or forgetting bad habits) easier
🙂Of course none of this might apply to you Iain as I'm sure your technique is great!
aye, great at falling off !
I'm still crap at manuals BTW but at least I'm weighting up the front tyre properly now.
Is it Andy who is taking the Dirt School class?
Rich - Andy does GT, Rab does Cathkin, so doing the latter as 10 mins from the hoose 🙂
I guess it also depends on how 'trialsy' your manuals need to be for what you ride.
I can manual through a ditch or off a drop with the basic 'push the feet through and [u]feel[/u] the pull in the shoulders shove' technique. I can also manage to get over two closely spaced rollers with the front wheel up like this.
What I can't do is the more than two or three seconds manual roll where the bike teeters on the balance point - I ride SPDs but I don't think this is the problem. I don't tend to ride many trail centres, so I don't often come across a series of perfectly spaced rollers that can be stylishly manualled over.
Up to a point, the 'shove' will do!
danny - sounds like same stuff as I need to get better at. It's the natural obstacles, the foot high max drop offs that I need to get better at. Not looking for trialsy skills, too old for that 🙂
Everyone thinks they pull up with their feet
Jedi - I reckon my problem is actually that I pull up with my arms before the drop, such that when my back wheel gets to the edge the front has already started to drop, hence I land on my face....
Decided that a skills session was a good investment, unfortunately a bit to far away from you but am sure the local guys will sort me out, hopefully with my SPD's on - they are relaxed about it and I think agree that bettter riding with what I am used to.
My advice would be to do it on flats. I looped out on SPDs years ago and dislocated a rib, I still have trouble with my back now because of that.
I don't tend to ride many trail centres, so I don't often come across a series of perfectly spaced rollers that can be stylishly manualled over.
Plenty of them around here - and no trail centres for a hundred odd miles!
I've ridden spd's for 20 years and I've just done the Pedal Progression jump and drops one day course. They really recommended flats, so I bought some cheap ones and went in my running shoes.
It worked ok'ish.
However I have now got some 5.10 flat shoes and the difference is very noticeable.
Leku - noticeable enough that you are converted ?
I did a 'stop crashing 2' skills course with ed oxley up at Lee Quarry.
I landed on my arse 3 times trying to manual, it's really, really rocky up there. Being a quarry and all.
Wished i'd been on flats, or less of a dick
LOL 🙂
Think I will take flats and trainers with me.....just incase
why do you want to manual and what for?
Jedi - good question. Natural drops, obstacles, typical stuff found on a west of Scotland natural ride. I don't do a lot of trail centres, although Cathkin is on my doorstep. I launched off the triple descent there in December, which is only about a foot high, but the landing is 2-3 feet lower, downslope and rock, and I woke up in ambulance. I want to improve my chances of not repeating, as a very scary experience and it smashed me up quite badly. It also kicked my confidence a bit, hence the plan for a bit of coaching. I have no aspirations for jumps or air or pulling manuals and wheelies along the road - my kids are waay better than me at that anyway !
Wanting to learn to manual in order to stay out of hospital is as good a reason as any to learn!
Again I would say you're looking for 'the shove' or a slightly more long-lived variant - but this is just a precursor to the 'proper impressive rolling down 50m on your back wheel manual' anyway.
It is definitely to do with pushing the bottom of the bike away from you with your feet and not pulling the top half towards you with your arms whichever you are on about.
Jedi will be able to put all this far better than me, though!
unwieghting the front of the bike for drops has nothing to do with the old wieght back manual rubbish
balancing on the rear wheel hovering over the rear hub dragging the rear brake is a flatland bmx trick and car park trick. manuals through sections like rollers is NOT the same technique
^^^^^^^^^^^
He can put it far better than me!
I cannot manual for shit, yet can do all drops thrown at me from 6" to 6', take from that what you will.
drops you only need to loft the wheel for half a second, push with your arms, unless your doing 0.5mph.
I race bmx and all the basic skills (manualing,pumping,jumping) at every club I know are taught/learnt in flats. Surely it's important and safer to master the basics in flats before even considering spds?
Anyone ride bmx with clips... Anyone ?
Anyone ride bmx with clips... Anyone ?
Pretty much every single BMX racer!
unwieghting the front of the bike for drops has nothing to do with the old wieght back manual rubbish
That's music to my ears, thanks Jedi.
Iain, Graham is trying to organise a skills weekend for the club with Clive Forth, might be worth a punt too.
I can highly recommend Clive, great bloke and a great teacher. Really enjoyed my day out with him, learnt loads of stuff and really got me riding better.
Yeah, I train and race in clips. But you don't need spds to manual pump and jump. It's a lot safer bailing off the bike in flats when it all goes wrong when learning new techniques.
interesting , cheers, will drop him a line,Iain, Graham is trying to organise a skills weekend for the club with Clive Forth, might be worth a punt too.
well, I did the 121 session with Rab of Dirtschool last week at Cathkin - very, very useful, sorted out a few intrinsic bad habits. Had lots of 'sessioning' sections to put into practise, and found yesterday when out on a normal ride I was using much of it, to my benefit.
I would tend to agree with those who say that a skills session is one of the 'best upgrades to your bike'
Oh, and he was happy for me using SPD's 🙂
I used to ride with Clive when he lived around Leighton buzzard and he's something else, used to leave us for dead on anything but road Tarmac,
As for manuals, i would say if you are just looking to pop the front end up over the odd trail bump then what ever footwear your most comfortable in but if your like me and a big show off that likes to ride on the back wheel when ever possible then I'd use flats and make sure the back brake is good. I have a pretty much ruined wrist through flying off the back of the bike manualling in the wet with naff brakes and spd's... Never again.
Hi OP
Firstly, congratulations on booking a days coaching, especially a 121 session, it may well be the best thing you have done for your riding ever.
Secondly, please do not go into it with preconceived ideas of what you want to be coached, the coach will watch you and decide what he can do for you to help improve your technique across the board and in specific areas, yes you should mention these.
In my opinion spending valuable time learning how to manual would be a waste and is unlikely to resolve your face plant over 3 foot drop issue.
An open mind and a little preparation will ensure you come out a far better rider than you went in.
When i say preparation, take plenty of food and drink, it is surprisingly tiring learning new skills (and unlearning old habits), both on the body and the mind. Make sure your bike is in good nick and set up how you like it, yes that does mean with the pedals you normally ride. Be prepared though, the coach may well advise changing a few things like brake lever angle etc (this may be part of the solution to the face plant problem).
Lastly, enjoy and please report back.
Bum.... ha ha.
So the session went well 🙂
Glad to hear it.
Just use caged SPD's with sticky SPD shoes (5:10's etc). Start off by riding unclipped and as the day progresses clip back in.
It's really daft to change what you have done for 20 years and I would have thought that Chris Ball's dirt school should be able to teach either type of pedal with zero issues. Especially with him being the top boy in the Enduro World Series where you will see the most skilled riders in the world riding everything.................clipped in.
The trick with flats is to position your foot, midfoot over the spindle rather than ball of the foot
I'll disagree with that! Not sure why you would want your foot in a different position than any other pedal.
After my Jedi session I now place my feet further forward, I don't ride with the ball of my foot over the spindle anymore
The trick with flats is to position your foot, midfoot over the spindle rather than ball of the foot
I'll disagree with that! Not sure why you would want your foot in a different position than any other pedal.
I think the reason is that with a stiff spd shoe the whole foot is supported by the sole of the shoe. With flats the weight feels better if the pedal is more centered.
Getting used to moving your bike around is the most important thing for me. Pump track helps wonders with this and drops from just doing the same drop over and other again and when you are comfortable trying moving your body around and seeing what works.
I did an xc race at the weekend and then after used the uplift to do some downhill stuff. I was a bit tired so was messing up drops and jumps. One messed up table top that chaged into a nose dive was saved by pumping midair to push the back down and a far to slow jump/drop was also saved by knowing how to move the bike around.
Try dropping your heels with the ball of your foot over the axle of a pedal. Now try it with the mid part of your foot.
Thats why.
Try dropping your heels with the ball of your foot over the axle of a pedal. Now try it with the mid part of your foot.Thats why.
This?
It's much easier to drop your heels and push through the bike, with your foot a little further forward on the pedal. Axle just behind the ball for me.
Fascinating discussion. It makes me wonder why we spend so much time on here discussing bikes (which most of us probably accept don't make much material difference) and so little time discussing technique.
For me, more often than not, I only manual for a wee confidence booster, bit of style, bit of fun.
I rarely do them when necessary: puddles, cattlegrids, Showing Off For Pretty Girls etc.
Learned on a trials bike and just moved the skill to the big hardtail. I'm still a bit of a shover though, certainly no Sultan Semenuk of Flow.
"Power Assisted Front Wheel Lift". That's handy mind.
Also stopped my feet slipping off the pedals when the bikes moving around
That one little change has really helped
Hi OPFirstly, congratulations on booking a days coaching, especially a 121 session, it may well be the best thing you have done for your riding ever.
Secondly, please do not go into it with preconceived ideas of what you want to be coached, the coach will watch you and decide what he can do for you to help improve your technique across the board and in specific areas, yes you should mention these.
In my opinion spending valuable time learning how to manual would be a waste and is unlikely to resolve your face plant over 3 foot drop issue.
An open mind and a little preparation will ensure you come out a far better rider than you went in.
When i say preparation, take plenty of food and drink, it is surprisingly tiring learning new skills (and unlearning old habits), both on the body and the mind. Make sure your bike is in good nick and set up how you like it, yes that does mean with the pedals you normally ride. Be prepared though, the coach may well advise changing a few things like brake lever angle etc (this may be part of the solution to the face plant problem).
Lastly, enjoy and please report back.
I realise you missed the fact that I had already been on the session when you posted, but reading your post, its spot on advice for anyone doing a skills session IMO 🙂