I'm ok going down steeper slower stuff on my gravel bike. However, I feel like it is a bit skittish when going down easier paths very quickly. It's been a problem racing as I can hang with most people on the way up but struggle on the downs. It's only an issue racing and riding with racing friends. On more normal rides, my tentative descending is still on a par with others or not so much slower than any real gap opens.
Riding a CX bike. Vitus Energie Evo - so relaxed by CX standards. 43mm tyres.
Is there much difference in gravel bike geometry that would give me something that feels more planted and stable at speed? What sort of bikes should I be looking at? Is it the same as MTB where you pretty much want to go long, low and slack?
I was thinking something capable of bigger tyres might help. Stuff that is sketchy on a gravel bike is fairly tame on a hardtail, even with a summer racing tread.
Ideally would want carbon as I'm still interested in climbing. Shame as some of the steel options seem more MTB focused. I am more about shorter fast rides on gravel (2-6h) rather than strapping bags everywhere and sleeping in hedges.
Any easy changes to my bike. I did wonder if wider tyres and rims might help. Could probably borrow some to try out and I need new tyres in any case. Wouldn't get 50s in though.
CX bikes are designed to change direction quickly for those twisty courses so it's no surprise it's a bit twitchy. there are slacker gravelbikes out there, the merida silex and fustle causeway for example. what you must not do is go for a gravel bike that's just a road bike with bigger tyre clearance. many companies jumped on the gravel bike bandwagon buy just using an old design and adding bigger tyres just to get a bike out there. so choose your geometry carefully and go for a bike designed for the job. obviously you don't want it too ponderous. modern grav bikes eeem to be splitting into two groups, one for racing (fast handling like the bike you are on now) and more adventure/bike packing bikes which have been designed to be more forgiving and predictable on more XC mtb style routes especiaily when loaded up with camping gear.
bikepacking.com generally has good honest reviews of this type of bike https://bikepacking.com/bikes/
I'm on my 2nd fustle and it's a great bike for the type of riding you describe, predictable handling but still playful
https://ukgravelco.com/fustle-causeway-gr1-review/
they've just released a carbon version too but the geometry is a fraction steeper
Dropper post; set your bars up so you're comfortable descending in the hooks.
43mm tyres are a decent size unless you're riding mega rocky stuff.
Alternatively if they're proper(roadie?) racer types, it may simply be that they're more mentally committed than you are, go big or go home stylee.
Longer stem and relax your arms and shoulders. More weight on the front wheel helps with planted. (Cross bike with 130 stem and narrow bars on mine), and steeper head angle than yours too.
Was also going to suggest a dropper post and decending in the drops if you don't already.
Not sure how dropper posts would help with easy high speed paths? Does a lower centre of gravity help with tyre contact patch or traction? (genuine Q).
In my experience it's just difficult to find traction with a limited contact patch on the tyre and loose marbly gravel on top of a harder base so I try to corner more like a CX bike in mud, i.e. keeping bike as upright as I can to keep the most tyre in contact with the ground. Not sure there's any benefit to leaning it over.
Not sure how dropper posts would help
Dropper is essential in letting the bike move around. Letting the bike move around is worth a coaching course if it’s not already obvious what that means.
Dropper is essential in letting the bike move around. Letting the bike move around is worth a coaching course if it’s not already obvious what that means.
Yeah understood I guess, I was just trying to apply that to the OP's specific question which was easy fast trails, not gnarly twisty steep where it's obvious why you want to move the bike around. Exactly what movement are you trying to achieve on the fast easy trails that a dropper prevents? I mean, CX riders ride some of the twistiest courses around and none of them run droppers...
Controversial, but...flat bars; more control, more confidence. They're just better for everything where aero doesn't matter, i.e everything except flat-out roadying
Gravel racing is now done on 2.2 MTB tyres - by Dylan Johnson's decree.
Not sure if a 2.2 would fit in an energie, but biggest tyre you can comfortably fit is the answer here. Fast gravel descending can be risky (and exhilarating) as there's such slim margin for error, if things start to go wrong they quickly become unrecoverable. A fast MTB tyre would make a massive difference.
New gravel bike is getting quite granular if you also own a XC MTB and the CX bike - that's fitting a narrow remit.
I’m with rocketdog having moved from a v2 Camino which I enjoyed, to a fustle causeway it’s pretty night and day off road. Using the same 43mm tyres so it’s not that, it’s the more mtb geometry.
Descending on a gravel bike on rough gravel does seem more skittish to me than a MTB. The front end can easily bounce and lost traction and before you know it your on the ground. Thinking how to improve the front grip is keeping more weight on the front staying in the drops, a bigger contact patch (wider tyre and lower pressure). 2” tyres and wider at 20psi will help.
Because it is a common example I'd use the Gralloch. I got to the top of that first climb with the sharp end of my age group. But coming down the other side I lost contact. Topped out at 45ish kph - felt like I was braking more/earlier. I was trying not to comfort brake, was in the drops and so on (as I started my cx riding in the days of cantis) but I was either not going to make it round the corners or hit the lines between the larger rocks. Some of it is likely risk appetite. I've never been the fastest on a road bike either. Anything above 70kph has me thinking about braking. But you can buy a bit of confidence - I'm faster on my down country bike than a full XC. The weight penalty on the ups is more than compensated for by the assistance on the downs.
Big tyres does seem obvious, most of it is just the bouncing so hard to get traction. Not sure I could drop to 20psi though on most of the rocky courses. At raiders I managed to ding a rim at 30psi and I was only about 70kg at that point.
Weirdly, tight and twist is fine - again, coming from cross it is pretty normal to drop off things and ride technical stuff slowly.
Not convinced by a dropper. It doesn't feel like being too bum high is the problem. I'm certainly not seated on any of this stuff.
Sounds like your reservations are same as mine, I'm relatively tentative on the fast loose corners and have lost a wheel more than once.
Dinging rims, ditto. I'm on inserts now and gradually lowering pressures, I'm 90kg and will be trying to go below 35psi up front and 35psi rear, based on how good the bike felt the other week with a slow leak in the rear!
If you're 70kg and on the widest tyres you can fit I would expect you could go lower.
of course any descending is much improved control wise if using the drops, if you are always on the hoods that could be the source of the lack of confidence
of course any descending is much improved control wise if using the drops, if you are always on the hoods that could be the source of the lack of confidence
Very much ^^This^^.
Also I would say drops with a bit of flair are beneficial, you're basically putting more weight over the front tyre (and therefore creating more friction/grip), it's harder to have a hand bounced off of the drop, and because a flared bar doesn't just bring your hand back, but also further out you gain a little more leverage/mechanical advantage over the bike's steering.
Personally I'm not into droppers on curly barred bikes (despite using them on MTBs) but if being able to move the seat down out of the way helps your confidence/control why not.
A wider front tyre is also probably the most bang for buck in terms of cushioning/comfort and helping you feel less bounced about, the obvious trade-off being more mass and rolling resistance on any tarmac you might ride...
Investigate a more rearward cleat position/clipless pedals with a platform/flat pedals.
Brake lever position/hand position/wrist angle.
I've just swapped the bars on my gravel bike to Ritchie Beacons. The shorter reach to the hoods and shallower drops make a noticeable difference when descending. Also just put the wide MTB tyres back on (Cotic Cascade) after a winter on 40mm tyres. This makes a big difference when it comes to grip and control over the rough stuff. I realise you're looking for something in carbon, but a bike with similar geometry might give you the extra confidence you're looking for. Interesting others have mentioned the Gralloch. Some of the gravel on that course is pretty chunky and the descents long and fast. I was able to make time on folks on the downhill sections and wasn't having to shake my hands out towards the end. I think this is primarily down to the wider tyres. A bike with the widest clearance possible for your needs would be my recommendation, along with wider shallower bar.
I also have a Vitus Energie Evo... and I'm rarely beaten on the descents at gravel events... climbs are a different matter!
Here's what I've changed: Ritchey WCS carbon Ergomax bars, flipped stem (to raise the low front end), 160 discs, One Up V3 dropper post with Fox Transfer lever and Specialized Rhombus 47mm tyres on standard wheels. I've also converted to a 2x set-up to have lower gears (43/30 x 10-36).
The 47mm tyres fit fine, although clearance to front mech is pretty close!
BTW- I love my Energie Evo... easily my most used bike. It wore mudguards and 32mm road tyres for the winter, then changed back to being a gravel speed-machine within 30 minutes 🙂
Have a go on a mate's gravel bike and see how it compares to your CX bike B2B on the same trail?
Then grab whatever is still heavily discounted in the current industry meltdown.
In the vein of suggest what you have… I’ve got a Topstone which i upgraded to add the lefty ocho.
30mm makes a heck of a difference in whether you choose a line or take what’s handed to you.
Not convinced by a dropper. It doesn't feel like being too bum high is the problem. I'm certainly not seated on any of this stuff.
You might not be "convinced" but I'll add my +1 to try a dropper post 🙂
I also run Ritchey Beacons and the easy top-to-drop is for me a key attribute in my ability to descend quickly (and always having run wider tyres, at lower pressures than pals). You are tubeless aren't you, with quality tyres.
Good brakes that you can depend on AND use are key to descending fast.
I have 2 gravel bikes, geometry fairly similar, both carbon framed, Rival AXS group sets. The Spesh Diverge has a little bit of front suspension in the Futureshock, the Revolt X has a proper Rudy XPLR fork with 40mm travel and a Reverb AXS dropper. The Spesh is on fast 42c tyres, the Diverge slightly more aggressive 44s.
The Spesh is a little faster on road, the Giant a whole lot more fun on trails and tame MTB stuff. For me suspension and dropper makes a big difference on anything technical or steep. In fact I no longer have a MTB, as the Giant is capable of anything technical that I choose to ride these days.
I find a dropper make all the difference on my Camino. I run a tall front end and spend most of my time in the hoods. However, for rough fast downhill stuff, I still need to be in the drops to keep a good grip on the bars and control the 180/160 Hope RX4+ calipers. Doing that with the saddle 150mm lower allows me to bend my legs more and see more of what's ahead of me without having my arse held up in the air.
Is there any mileage in changing the fork to one with different rake and offset or whatever is important in fork measurements.
Is it the same as MTB where you pretty much want to go long, low and slack?
I'm not convinced this works for a gravel bike. I mean, yes any bike that has a bit of LLS applied or at least the long and slack parts will be more stable downhill but MTBs and drop bar gravel bikes are so different overall, it's not as simple as taking a bit off the head angle and making the reach longer and pushing that idea out. If you apply LLS to a bike with a gravel bike's general riding position (and i'm assuming by 'gravel bike' we mean something that is not too far from a road or CX bike layout rather than a drop bar 29er which is another level of wrongness again) .. then imo the bars and position can feel at odds with the geometry. It can feel more stable on a descent but only to the point where the bars and position become the main barrier to confidence or going faster, and the geometry changes can have a negative impact elswhere. On tarmac it's a negative ime - the longer front centre messes up the front tyre grip unless you get way over the front and corner it like an MTB which gets old pretty soon on a longer road ride (and we're back to the point about bar shape and position, it only works to a point).
This point about longer FCs and front tyre grip is what TiRed is getting at when he says a longer stem can help. It can, counterintuitively. But a longer stem can make the position thing worse and mean that when things do go a bit wrong you're outside the range of control sooner or more easily. Most of your weight on the bike goes through the pedals so front to rear weight balance comes from the bike's front to rear centre ratio. A longer stem can shift you fwd a little but in % terms it doesn't make a lot of difference to where your CoM is vs the wheels, or at least not in the situations where it really matters.
I bit longer FC, a bit slacker HTA, a bit shorter stem and wider bar does all help. But it's not really a fix, more of a tune of the level of response the bike gives and how it can feel a bit less twitchy that way. Still, there's certainly a point where that generally good idea becomes a problem elsewhere and imo if a bike goes that far it may be a bad road/CX bike, if so why have drop bars, may as well be on a more capable rigid 29er if the bike is going to be that off-road biased.
Again, in the spirit of 'recommend what you have', my Ritchey Outback running 27.5x2.1 is the most surprisingly capable bike I've had in a very long time.
It's really not that heavy (especially with carbon wheels), and I've done 100+ mile gravel rides on it with no major discomfort. Really a superb bike, and I love it to bits. Also, hydraulic disc brakes on a CX/gravel bike are a revelation!
Another shout for the Fustle Causeway! It's the only drop bar bike I've actually got on with. It got to a point where my missus had to remind me we still had full sus trail bikes to ride 🙂
Was curious about the Causeway so did some googling and found this grouptest, quite an interesting read
https://granfondo-cycling.com/gravel-vs-mtb-test/
Confirm my suspicions that the Fustle wouldn't be for me but certainly sounds like a confident descender!
I'll admit I don't have extensive experience of different gravel bikes (owned a few older, cheap road bikes and a few custom built things), but I don't agree with some of the review.
I've tried to like drop bars in the past but always found them uncomfortable. The Causeway is one of the most comfortable bikes I've ridden in a while (for a rigid).
Gearing is more personal preference. I built mine from a frameset so I included a 10-51 cassette and gearing feels ok with the 40t chainring.
It's not surprising that the winner of the group test was significantly more expensive and a higher spec though 🙂
It was only when Rocketdog suggested the Causeway I ended up building from a frameset. I was really close to buying the Canyon Grizl.
It's such a varied segment though we probably look for totally different things depending on which end you want the bike to behave like. I wanted something that would feel familiar to someone who is used to MTB, but just far enough apart not to be an XC bike.
Ideally I would have loved something carbon with a higher stack and room for big tyres, but I didn't have a big bag of gold at the time 🙂
I'll admit I don't have extensive experience of different gravel bikes (owned a few older, cheap road bikes and a few custom built things), but I don't agree with some of the review.
Yeah in fairness I didn't read it as a negative review at all, just highlighted that the Fustle clearly sat at the more MTB end of the spectrum which would explain why it's more confident etc.
Didn't actually read the whole review, seems a bit daft having a 'winner' as it was clearly six quite different bikes!
My mate and I both have Specialized Diverge STRs.
We rarely have a ride without saying "these bikes are fantastic, aren't they?" Whether it's a 50mile mostly road ride or Follow the Dog plus some difficult cheeky bits on Cannock Chase.
Extremely capable and just what you wanted from a mountain bike 20 years ago.
But there's never a time when I don't think mine would be better with flat wide bars. The cost of changing (proprietary stem plus AXS shifters, gulp) is prohibitive. So as an aside, what compatible drop bars are there which provide the same stability. I do have a dropper post fitted, which gets used a lot
I'm also going to recommend what I own, Kinesis Tripster AT. I mostly ride road these days and my previous gravel bike was a repurposed CX bike, but when I ride the Kinesis it is with out a doubt the most stable and planted drop bar bike I have ever swung a leg over.
I'm another Fustle owner, it's not the lightest thing but I do have a dropper post and 2.2 Racekings .I try to keep off-road as much as possible so it's set up more like a drop bar MTB.
How did you get 2.2 Racekings on the Causeway?? I've barely managed to get the 2.0 to fit (with 27mm rims) 🙂
650b with plenty of clearance
