[Closed] single pivot vs dual/link pivot

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My thoughts....it's not as simple/important as you think.

I think single pivot bikes may be cheaper on maintenance and multi pivot bikes may ride better.

What are your thoughts on 27.5" & 29" wheels?

It's good that there are definitive, absolute right answer for these questions.

JCL will be along in a bit to tell you what it is.

I like singles. With modern shocks you dont need anything else.

It's good that there are definitive, absolute right answer for these questions.

JCL will be along in a bit to tell you what it is.

he'll also probably give you answers to other questions you didn't ask as well, spoiler alert - you're wrong

ymmv. I am sure there are horst link bikes that ride like crap just as there are plenty of simple high-ish pivot swingarm bikes with no linkages that are also a right giggle to ride. There is quite some science to predict this, and there are also people who think they know the science and think they know exactly how it will ride without having a go on one. For example gt force/sanction and maverick monolink frames should ride like a bag of spanners according to the wisdom on here but are actually rather good fun.
But yes jcl will be along soon and put us all straight. 😉

In theory, and in some cases in practice, some multi link bikes are more supple than multi-link bikes.

In practice, I think setup, geometry, stiffness and build are FAR FAR more important. I honestly do not give a crap how plush my single pivot is when I am hooning down some technical singletrack at silly speeds grinning like an idiot 🙂

Single must be more durable though. I changed the bearings once on my 5, cost £15, as opposed to £100 odd for a set of bearings on some bikes and a lot of work. When you only have one pivot it's generally really big so a lot more durable.

Too many variables involved. Which specific bikes?

My orange 5 lasted 4 months. Was more flex in the rear end than freddy Mercury.... And more play than a James bond kitten. Single pivots in my opinion are for simple people.... Who like simple bikes.

A good single pivot bike is better than a bad dual link one.

The underlying design itself is no guarantee of a decent bike so it's to generic a question to answer, like saying apples vs pears.

I am liking short link virtual pivots from banshee and giant, and also split pivot / abp from devinci and trek

Dw link is the best design I've ridden.
I do not own a DW link bike.

In theory, and in some cases in practice, some multi link bikes are more supple than multi-link bikes.

I owe one of each

Single pivot bobs on the climbs so you need to sit and spin but much better downhill and more"natural"

DW /VPP bette ruphill as you can feel it squat when you mash up hill
You can feel its a little less supple down
SO VPP/DW for uphill and single for downhill

Single is way better for maintenance in terms of cost and ease.

With a full suspension bike designers are balancing parameters in order to achieve a result they feel is the best balances of compromises for that particular application. Basically a true 4 bar layout (horst link, dw link, vpp etc) basically give more freedom I balancing the parameters, the optimisation here isnt so deeply married to that compromise there.

For example, a classic one, on a single pivot brake feedback and anti-squat are basically directly proportionate to one another. On a 4 bar, you can get more anti-squat without impacting on the brake feedback as much.

Also its BS that theres a best suspension layout, all anyone is ever experiencing is the designers optimisation, 4 bars dont feel a certain way, they feel the way the designers tell them to.

Single pivot bobs on the climbs

Which bike?

On my 5 if you were to look down at the shock, in full open mode you could see it move a mm or so - but it was imperceptable otherwise.

My orange 5 lasted 4 months. Was more flex in the rear end than freddy Mercury.... And more play than a James bond kitten

Something wrong with that bike! The 5 is renowned for being very stiff, isn't it? Certianly should not have had any play! And as for being simple (not that I'm annoyed here) but if you bought a bike with play in the rear end and you thought it was simply designed that way, then you were being a bit simple.

Not wanting to open an entire other can of worms, but you can get "true" 4 bar (Horst link, DW link) or ones that are just linkage actuated shocks...

Single pivots can be flexier and can put more moment on the pivot, so can wear out the main pivot faster than either, depending on the design obviously.

Yup, single pivots do bob more or maybe it's that fox propedal has got better in last 8 yrs, urrmmmm! No!

They really do bob more! (RM Slayer)
Even if you wack in lots of psi into shock, still makes no difference!

Am now on vpp and feels much better.

My thought, are you that secret singletrack WC racer that is awesome

If not go back to question 1

Moley grips...The 5 is renowned for being very stiff, isn't it..... No. It's not. It's flexes than a more flexy thing with added flex. I hated my 5. I wanted to love it but we fell out of love quickly. The op asked for opinions on single pivots..... And this is mine. My horst link current fsr is great... Stuff and no flex.

Edit... Stiff not stuff! Ha ha

Which bike?

Stand up pedal hard there is no way it bobs only 1 mm and is "imperceptible".

mikewsmith - Member

It does if you pretend..

yeah but this is the forum where full-sussers pedal like hardtails and vans drive like cars

I've been thinking about this as I was considering a SC Bronson or 5010 but both have single pivot equivalents with exactly the same geometry etc, which might be better suited to the wet gritty conditions we have around here. Has anyone tested new Heckler vs a Bronson for example to see the differences in the linkage designs.

Heckler vs Blur LTc here. Ride is completely different.
There are lifetime replacement on the bearings, on the blur it's had a decent amount of wet weather riding in 18 months and the bearings have no sign of issues. The maintenance argument is generally overplayed, but the bike you want to ride most.

So we are none the wiser......

SO VPP/DW for uphill and single for downhill

I had a five, it was great. Currently riding a long travel hard tail, it's also great. What the hell do I know.........

Had a scott voltage (linkage driven single pivot) and it was ace pointed downhill but a pig uphill

Now got a fivespot (DW link) and it's ace uphill and down (but not as good downhill as the voltage - tho I'd put that more down to wheelbase)

2 different bikes, designed to do different things and at vastly different price points. Probably doesn't answer your question tho....it's not really just about suspension

With single pivots the pivot location and size of chainring will greatly influence how the bike pedals.

There's more to it than just single pivot vs multi linkage vpp etc.

What's good, in this situation? I swapped a Last Herb DH (clever single-pivot-with-linkage suspension) with a 224 Evo (very unclever suspension). The Herb was [i]better[/i]- faster, more stable, more composed. The 224 was more fun though, and simpler to ride, no learning curve. There's no question the Herb was better, technically. But I prefered the Orange.

Pretty much every suspension design has its advantages and disadvantages and can be executed well or poorly, in a bike which is otherwise well or poorly designed. It's hard to isolate it and for most people it's impossible to judge what's implementation and what's fundamental. And even if you can, it comes down to what you like.

molgrips - Member

The 5 is renowned for being very stiff, isn't it?

Nah, it's really pretty flexy at the back- no wonder when you consider it's basically 2 big flat spars joined a looong way forwards. It's no bad thing imo. (as long as you don't combine it with a flexy wheel, which to be fair, Orange generally do)

I did some unscientific testing, my 224's rear end seemed to be roughly as stiff as my titanium hardtail 😆

With single pivots the pivot location and size of chainring will greatly influence how the bike pedals.

Same goes for the instant centre location on any multi-link design.

Again, way more variables than talked about in this thread. Differing levels of anti-squat can be engineered into almost any design so the "design A is more active than design B" comments are nonsense.

The best designs IMO have flattish, falling leverage rates with an instant centre between the front axle and BB at sag point with little IC migration. Neutral, predictable, supple and easily tuneable suspension. It's harder to achieve that with short links and lots of rotation and impossible with counter rotating links.