[Closed] Single pivot bikes ~ will I regret it ?

I would suggest that Cy Turner may take issue with calling single pivot suspensions out dated-all of the Cotic Droplink bikes are SP

Have you riden a recent Five? Might be an eye opener

To answer your question, in my opinion there is no drawback to a properly designed single pivot suspension system, and a number of potential advantages

Obviously their single pivot - are there any real drawbacks to this ? I'd like to start doing more maintenance on my bikes myself so the simplicity appeals to me for a start ... but are they out dated compared with more modern designs.

I think the original patent for the VPP actually pre-dates the Orange 5, so it's not outdated in that sense!

They ride differently, as do different single pivots and multi-pivots, and single pivots with linkages (Kona, Cotic, Transition, etc, although a lot now use Horst links since Specializeds patent lapsed). If you can I'd get a demo on one, and on whatever else you're considering. 50/50 you may actually prefer an Orange to a Santa Cruz, I know I did (although I preferred Specialized and Giant's more but for different reasons, I found FSR felt like it did it's job with the lest fuss so you just had to get on and ride, the Giant was a good compromise between that and a bit of fun).

As for maintenance, it's hard to argue against the ability to change the main bearing for £14 and that being it (apart from suspension bushings), a full set of bearings for a VPP or FSR can look extortionate! The flip side is, modern bikes eat their bearings far less than they used to, plenty of SC and Specialised owners will have never replaced a bearing.

Regardless of that, geometry has a bigger impact, SC may be better than they were 5 years ago, but I still find they feel incredibly tall and short (but despite that, really hard to wheelie!)

plenty of SC and Specialised owners will have never replaced a bearing

Because the bearings are free for life if you take it to a dealer (modern SCs anyway)

Obviously their single pivot - are there any real drawbacks to this ?

Do you think Orange would've persisted all these years making them if there were?

The whole bike will make more of a difference than the number of pivots. Try one.

Because the bearings are free for life if you take it to a dealer (modern SCs anyway)

...........because they've finally managed to build bikes that don't eat bearings.

Conversely the bearings on an Enduro are/were £110 for the pivot kit (included the bolts and spacers, if you were careful you could probably use £60 of bearings from a bearing shop), plus labour (about 2 hours). On the upside they last a long time (i didn't ride enough to wear them out, and apparently next owner hasn't either).

tbh thats what i've been looking for in my next bike.

i'm riding a 26er superlight, and want a similar setup when i go 29er / (650b). not looked in anger, but so far something the salsa horsethief looks like its the perfect thing. something more available would be nicer. (Also nice is the UK made Starling!)

me.. i want a little bit more squish than a hardtail, but not took much (personally believe for a lot of poeple > 120mm travel is being overbiked?)

Looking at the number of single pivots (particularly if you count bikes with linkage actuated shocks as single pivot) out there, I'd say it's far from outdated.

There are potential/theoretical drawbacks, but trying one and seeing if you like it is the only way to go really.

me.. i want a little bit more squish than a hardtail, but not took much (personally believe for a lot of poeple > 120mm travel is being overbiked?)

Depends where you ride and what you like.

For a whole loop, a hardtail (or even a CX bike) would be quickest overall in a lot of situations. But then in the Peak district I always found 150mm to be a slog on the way up, but only just enough to make some of the descents fun! It just depends where you want to compromise. although I'd agree ~120mm is probably a good point between climbing quickly and descending capably.

The only thing I would say about my orange , even though it was a patriot, was the back end was very flexi ... from side to side

The suspension worked fine ...
And it was very noisy ..

Definitely need to try some different SP bikes out before you decide.

I have a Rocket now and had an Alpine previously. Both single pivot (although one obviously has a linkage driven shock), both same shock, both same build components, both same weight, both same geometry to within <5mm and a degree or so. Only difference is the Alpine was 26 and the Rocket's 650b. Wildly different to ride - the Alpine just made me want to straightline everything as it would just soak it up, the Rocket needs more riding and is more involving. The Alpine rear end twisted and deflected round stuff which felt good but is terrifying to watch (having followed mates on them), the Rocket is so much stronger at the back and skips over stuff instead. The Alpine was more comfortable but I much prefer the Rocket, and it's marginally quicker at my ability according to Strava.

I wouldn't go back to a single pivot. I have had a few over the years and at the time liked them. I now have VPP which is much nicer. I tried a new orange 5 recently and I didn't like it at all. Just felt like it was folding in the middle instead of doing whatever a multi pivot does. It felt like it relied to heavily on the shock instead of good frame design. Pedal bob was horrendous too. Even the owner of the 5 said his bike felt a bit rubbish after riding mine and he was going to look at changing it. I don't worry about bearings either. They last long enough and are cheap enough (free now from santacruz) that changing them once in a while isn't a worthy consideration when choosing a frame. It doesn't take much longer to do 8 bearings than 2 when the frame is in bits anyway. I wouldn't but up with a rubbish bike just to save a few £££ on bearings.
Its all down to personal preference at the end of the day.

I used to have a 2007 Orange Five, which I got after a few years of riding a hardtail. I switched the Five for an Ibis Mojo in 2010 and the main difference I noticed suspension wise was that the Mojo's rear suspension stayed active under braking. I'm not sure I was really aware when I had it that the Five's was stiffening up under braking but when I changed to a bike that didn't do it, the change was obvious.

I remember Rocky Mountain saying that they'd avoided having braking affect some of their linkage driven single pivot bikes but I don't know how widespread doing that is, or if it can be done on linkage free single pivots.

There are plenty of SP bikes that get storming reviews so they are not bad bikes or poor designs. Every bike will ride differently and that is not a function of one specific feature of the bike, eg suspension design, wheel size, geometry etc. it is a melting pot of all those things that make a good bike good.

VPP bikes that ride great don't ride great wholly because of there VPP suspension.

Stuff may get better but of the Oranges I tried I was never blown away like the reviews in here go.
On bearings I thought I had done my 2nd bearing in 3 years on my Blur Ltc, turn out it was the shock bushing instead.... so in 3 years I've changed as many bearings as an Orange has. Works for me, the ride is exceptional too

Funnily enough, i was contemplating this last night while trying to work out why i'm enjoying my Rocket Max so much. As much as i loved the FSR Stumpy Evo, the single pivot seems to suit my riding much better. It jumps better (more predictable), manuals better - the FSR seemed change shape more on the back wheel and it exits corners better. The Stumpy felt nicer in the corner but a bit vague on the exit. Vague isn't the right word but it seems to suck a little bit of pump whereas the Rocket gives it all back - if that makes sense. Going down fast rough stuff the FSR was a touch more composed and although the Rocket is rowdier, i like that aspect too (though i'm still not 100% on the ideal rear shock pressure).

In short, i don't regret it.

Each to his/her own but personally, every SP I've ridden felt crude and basic.

The thing that sells single pivot to me is the creak factor. It's no real drama to change one set of bearings in the hunt for the elusive creak. Something like a Trance must be an absolute nightmare.

I had a trance. It never creaked. The bearings needed changing once in 6 years and they were pretty easy to change.

The thing that sells single pivot to me is the creak factor. It's no real drama to change one set of bearings in the hunt for the elusive creak.

Agreed, one of the reasons I have a Five. Let's be honest, the difference in suspension feel between frames isn't actually that pronounced. I've ridden trail centre sections with the rear locked out and not realised until the bottom.

Whenever single pivot bikes are mentioned everyone goes on about how cheap it is to replace bearings... if money is an issue then you probably shouldn't be looking at Orange as they aren't exactly known for being cheap.

The other thing about buying an Orange is that you'll most likely turn into a total nobber on the internet.

Let's be honest, the difference in suspension feel between frames isn't actually that pronounced. I've ridden trail centre sections with the rear locked out and not realised until the bottom.

I'm a total nobber but don't have an Orange,will they give me a discount?

I own several VPP style bikes and a couple of SP (one is an Orange). SP just feels different, that's all. Not bad or better, just different. If I could be bothered to notice whether the rear end was locking out under braking or not - I probably wouldn't be focussing on other cool things, such as enjoying riding a bike fast down a trail 😆

I've gone from a 26" giant reign with 170mm to an orange Segment with 110mm. It feels great, it bobs uphill with the shock fully open which is the same as the giant.

The segment is a really nice bike. Any reason not to try and demo one?

If you are looking for a new bike, start cycles had orange 4rs at £1000 the 2017 ones

i`ve had an orange, then lots of multipivot bikes.

i`m back on a single pivot. i quite like it but its totally personal preferance.

bearings for my new one (empire) are expensive!

i`m liking all the chat about mulitpivot bikes not eating bearings anymore - in my experience, and the loosely associated riding group i hang out with, that is definately not the case.

Ive had multi link systems from Yetis and Whytes and now ride a filing cabinet ,yes im a nobber ,yes i like breakjack and yes im a fanboi but i love the way the bike hops and skips about..

Now i await the "i bet he drives an Audi too " quote

Can i have a discount at Stainland

i`m liking all the chat about mulitpivot bikes not eating bearings anymore - in my experience, and the loosely associated riding group i hang out with, that is definately not the case.

I demoed an Orange 4 yesterday from Alpine Bikes in Innerleithen. I don't know much about suspension systems, but it was an amazing bike.

To answer your question, in my opinion there is [s]no[/s] few drawbacks to a properly designed single pivot suspension system, and a number of potential advantages

This. 'Pure' single-pivots do [i]feel[/i] and react differently to multi-pivots, which can be an advantage or disadvantage depending on your point of view. I found I can feel what's going on more and predict the reaction of the shock, whereas on good multi-pivot bikes it's hard to tell when the shock is doing its stuff. It really is personal preference, but personally I'm all in favour - less to go wrong.

There's also a shedload of single-pivot bikes out there masquerading as multi-pivot - the Saracen range holds several, not to mention pre-Horst Link Transitions.

Hate to say it, but best thing is to ride one.

Let's be honest, the difference in suspension feel between frames isn't actually that pronounced. I've ridden trail centre sections with the rear locked out and not realised until the bottom.

You've dug a hole for yourself there. You admit to not being sensitive to your bike then want us to believe your statement about suspension feel...

Nothing at all wrong with single pivot bikes. Try a Five or the new Alpine6 and you'll soon see. Take a look on Orange's website and read a couple of the reviews for these bikes. And talk to owners, and ask the many alpine guides who ride them and rate them, not just because they handle brilliantly and they're fun, but because they last very well and need relatively little maintenance despite being hammered day after day.

And talk to owners, and ask the many alpine guides who ride them and rate them...

*Cough*

I used to be one.

*/Cough*

I have had a few of both types of bike, and whether they feel good or bad often comes down to the geometry and the quality and set up of the rear damper. Get a good shock well set up and how may pivots it has got should be the major issue.. design and execution will be. Generally I have found that single pivot bikes highlight a bad shock more.. can feel awful. But stick a CCDB Air or similar on it and fettle it right and it can feel just as good as a multi-pivot bike.

And talk to owners, and ask the many alpine guides who ride them and rate them...

Slightly different usage though, as a guide the cost of bearings is probably of less concern than having to wait for a shop to do them even if they were free!

The other thing about buying an Orange is that you'll most likely turn into a total nobber on the internet.

my advice is buy the bike you want in the colour you like. then you will be happy.

single pivot bikes and various other designs (i sent from a five to a liteville btw (horst)) ride differently. It will take a while for you to get the best from any new bike so just buy what you like and ride it.

Yes you can get brake jack and it can feel bendy. Sometimes thats a good thing. Some times its not. Bearings can fail quickly on some bikes. You need to service them. This is all down to how and where ytou ride. I can kill a set in 3 months. Others will take years. Just look after whatever bike you get.

Ive spent a lot of time recently having a go on others bikes and it makes me appreciate mine more tbh. when you find one you like go buy that 🙂

Yes you can get brake jack

You really can't. The suspension extends cos your weight goes forwards and there's nothing to counter it. Dropper posts help sort that out though.

A shock like an X2 or a CCDB will go a logn way to addressing any supposed deficiencies of a single pivot. Quite like the made-in-a-shed bloody-mindedness of Orange myself.

I was an alpine guide, actually. Rode single-pivot Oranges then and still do. Just back from a holiday in the Alps last week and two of the three guides I rode with had Oranges and love them. Bearings generally last ages, are cheap as chips and super-simple to fit yourself without special tools, presses etc. Regardless of all that, for me and plenty of others the bikes ride brilliantly when they're specced and set up right.

The 'brake jack' thing is incorrect. You get brake squat, but you get just as much brake squat on any linkage driven single pivot and many short link 4 bar designs. Only some 4 bar designs have very low brake squat. Just draw a line between the pivot and where the rear tyre touches the ground - the steeper the angle, the more brake squat.

But your weight transfer will make more difference than anything else. If you could get brake squat to counter that it would be useful.

My last four main bikes have been 2006 5, 2009 5, 2014 Alpine 5, 2016 Segment.

I have tried plenty of multi pivot bikes and none have blown me away. The Santa Cruz Tallboy LC was especially disappointing. I keep buying single pivot because they ride well and I have not found another system I prefer. Not better, not worse, just what they are.

But your weight transfer will make more difference than anything else. If you could get brake squat to counter that it would be useful.

What do you mean?

Mert lawhwill (?) designed brake squat into his motorbikes for exactly that reason.

(His design eliminated brake squat, so he had to design it back in to counter the forward momentum brake dive thing)

And a few bike companies have copied this feature into their mtb's - I'm not convinced they all knew what they were doing...

What do you mean?

Well your weight goes forwards when you brake, so your forks dive and the rear extends. If you can get the action of the brake to compress the suspension you'd counteract that extension. Or what awhiles said.

That's what brake squat does. With a rigid fork 100% brake squat completely cancels extension due to your mass rocking forwards but in the process does reduce grip at the rear tyre. To balance the fork dive you'd need even more brake squat, which could be designed in so the bike stays level but gets lower as you brake - but in the process you'd lose even more grip.

Generally about 70% brake squat gives a good balance of geometry preservation and grip.

However in my experience, having a dropper post is the best way to sort the problem, because you can get much lower and get your weight back. On my bike at least this reduces diving to the point it's not an issue.

Welcome to 2010! 😉

orange 5 recently and I didn't like it at all....Pedal bob was horrendous too

Surprised at that as the old models are very efficient providing your running a 32t, if that's the case then it's a design fault rather than an inherent issue with single pivots, no reason they can't be designed to pedal as well/efficiently as anything else.

OP forget about the number of pivots and buy what you like.

I had one for years, it never bobbed significantly.

Welcome to 2010!

Yes, it takes me a while.. 🙂 I don't spend money on bikes, I only got a dropper 6 months ago.

I wouldn't go back to a [s]single pivot[/s] VPP. I have had a few over the years and at the time liked them. I now have [s]VPP[/s] Single Pivot which is much nicer. I tried a new orange 5 recently and I [s]didn't like it at all[/s] bought one.

FTFY 😉

Seriously, all bikes are great. Especially more so if you've not ridden a type of bike for a while, then it becomes even better. A change is good.

The greatest difference in bike feel for me is that a multi pivot bike grips the ground when you brake, and a single pivot skips over the ground.

As a dobber of a rider, less grip is better for me, as it makes me actually ride faster, and grin.

I never liked having to fight against chain tension when climbing over squared edged bumps. I found my oranges were little better than hardtails on technical climbs because of it. But that was over ten years ago. I've not ridden a modern one.

I noticed that chain growth thing but I got used to it pretty quickly. Saying it's little better than a hard tail though is a bit extreme though. I only get stiffening when I there's a step up, even then it still moves. It feels quite positive to me. But you also get the reverse - after a hit the suspension extends and gives you a little kick at the wheel.

Rickon makes a good point, and it's why Oranges have a reputation for being fun bikes to ride even if they're not considered by some to be the most refined. Personally, I think the newer crops or Oranges are super-plush but they still give useful feedback on sketchy terrain like wet roots. As for climbing, never had a problem with bob on single-pivots - I find they dig in nicely on steep, techy stuff.

I should add I was mostly talking about the Patriot with its seven inches of travel. It was much less noticeable on the Five.

Thanks for all the advice ... plenty to think about. Will go and check it out this weekend. Then it will be what colour 😯

cyan blue or neon orange , the only two colours nothing else should leave Halifax ...Fact

cyan blue or neon orange

Actually agree 🙂

Although Fizzy Orange is also fine.

Not fizzy, it's atomic orange you need. As close to neon as they do. 8)

I've got a neon orange five in the shed. I occasionally toy with the idea of selling it. Then I realise it's a neon orange five and come to my senses 🙂

Technically my Horst-link Smuggler is a better bike, but the five is just so much fun and did I mention the neon orange.

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I've had a Five for a couple of years and it's great fun. I'm no expert, so anything that makes life easier is good for me. I'm generally unaware of the suspension - which is a good thing - it just keeps the bike moving along whatever mistakes I make. Likewise for the Cane Creek DB inline shock - seems to work well with the Five's pivot.

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When you said dbinline is great I though, oh dear, but.... I reckon the coil version will be ideal for the new five.

I had a couple of 03 Hecklers and a mk1 Nomad.

I had a heap of fun on them both but the away the latter climbed in low gears was mildly annoying given it cost 4 x the price (sh). I still lust after the former.

The amount talked about suspension design is unbelievable. It's entirely possible to have a huge amount of fun, go fast, whatever on SP,or any design.

Its also possible to spend hours and ££££ reading brochures and websites, mincing about whether your bikes suspension operates better under braking, climbing whatever, and agonising over the lost microseconds.

I know ewhat I preferred doing.

Well, my Covert (SP) rides great. Have taken a Rocket Max (SP) for a test ride is it was great. Taking a Hightower out today for a test ride. Based on some of the comments about magical VPP suspension it better blow my mind. I suspect it won't, but I remain open minded about it, looking forward to the ride.

Roverpig... That's the only orange colour they should do.... Same as mine 😉

But and it's a big but.. That strange 29er in mountain mint has got the bank account and wife sweating

No OP, I don't think you will regret it. Get a great shock tuned to the suspension design and it will be great.

The other thing about buying an Orange is that you'll most likely turn into a total nobber on the internet.

how long have you had yours?

HaHa ... I was going to ask 'thepodge', the exact same question.

Nothing like reducing someone to a cultural stereotype. 😆