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clearly the car shouldn't have gone, but did the kid as the uploader claims signal too late?
As a driver waiting there my assumption would be they were intending to turn left.
Meh.
But confusing hand signal from the young lad. The driver could interpret his left hand signal as intent to pull into the road the car's exiting from. The kid indicated too early IMO.
indication should be done after the last turning before the one you wish to take. It would have been safer to maintain road position without indicating, then move left and indicate on the final few yards at the roundabout for the benefit of those planning on entering the roundabout from the next entry and anyone coming on after.
With or without the hand signal, at least the kid has now learnt a valuable lesson about not trusting a single **** on the road. Never assume that your hand signal has the magic power of a forcefield to protect you from a *.
Error from the kid and understandable manoeuvre from the car. Doesn't give the driver the right to pull out but there was space and no harm done.
If I were the kid I wouldn't have signaled as it was kind of ambiguous whether he was turning left where the car pulled out and signalling really late or whether he was signalling left to leave the round about which was really more straight on.
Didn't look too close, not great but not scary.
Personally I wouldn't signal until I was past the junction, so I'd say the kid and the adult's signals were badly timed and ambiguous.
[b]BUT...[/b]
As the driver, faced with an approaching child on a bike, I would have waited no matter what signal he gave.
In fact, as the driver, if I saw [i]any[/i] traffic at all there I would have waited so I was sure they were going where they signalled before I pulled out. Trust no one!
As a driver waiting there my assumption would be they were intending to turn left.
It doesn't really matter what assumptions we make, it's the same as if a car was indicating: you only pull out of the junction when actually clear to do so. It's a bit irritating when somebody signals incorrectly or changes their mind, but ultimately one just has to suck it up. In the video, the car shouldn't have pulled out, although there was just about room/time enough to do so.
The kid indicated too early IMO.
The adult filming seems to signal several seconds before the kid:
[img] 
[/img]
Personally I wouldn't have indicated left at all, whether or not the side turning was there. I rarely do indicate left whilst riding a bike as it certainly doesn't make it any safer for me, and usually doesn't provide useful information for other road users either.
How many drivers do you think would indicate if they had to take their hands of the wheel to do so?
The signal was a bit early but to be honest it looks like the driver was doing the usual 'must get out before that bike holds me up' maneuver and would've done it regardless.
Since no-one else has done it yet...
103
Signals warn and inform other road users, including pedestrians (see ‘Signals to other road users’), of your intended actions. You should alwaysgive clear signals in plenty of time, having checked it is not misleading to signal at that time
use them to advise other road users before changing course or direction, stopping or moving off
cancel them after use
make sure your signals will not confuse others. If, for instance, you want to stop after a side road, do not signal until you are passing the road. If you signal earlier it may give the impression that you intend to turn into the road. Your brake lights will warn traffic behind you that you are slowing down
use an arm signal to emphasise or reinforce your signal if necessary. Remember that signalling does not give you priority.
104
You should alsowatch out for signals given by other road users and proceed only when you are satisfied that it is safe
be aware that an indicator on another vehicle may not have been cancelled.
[quote=GrahamS said] The kid indicated too early IMO.
The adult filming seems to signal several seconds before the kid:
Good spot! That didn't help matters then.
just makes drivers think all cyclists are ****s for holding them up and not bothering to signal? (leaving aside general lack of signalling from drivers which goes un-noticed compared to the infuriating cyclists, etc.)I rarely do indicate left whilst riding a bike as it certainly doesn't make it any safer for me
I've given up on trying to improve driver's attitudes by giving the impression that cyclists obey the rules (ignoring flagrant rulebreaking by drivers). Do you really think indicating left on a bike makes a significant difference to other road users?
Do you really think indicating left on a bike makes a significant difference to other road users?
If something is waiting at the junction then yes quite obviously. Does indicating left in a car make any difference? same points apply.
Lets face it, most road users are just sheep who have no real recollection or knowledge of what they actually do when driving. Throw in some good users and you can see attitudes change. Add bad users and it all descends to chaos.
Example, merging lines of traffic will happily filter along until someone shoves their way out into a space which isnt there, which always leads to someone else doing the 'well if they did it im not sitting here etc etc...', so you get sudden stops/surges.
indication was too early and tbh road position on entering that roundabout should have been good enough but indication at the roundabout would have been best.
Adult did indicate too early too - I noticed that too.
Car should have waited until a manoeuvre was under way - ie never trust indicators, wait until someone actually starts to turn in.
tbh the car pulling out into that gap was probably the better option than it trying to overtake them after the roundabout as they would probably be at greater risk of silly driving.
A misleading signal is worse than no signal. As already stated a signal should be delayed if there is any turns before the one you intend to take.
If the kid hadn't signaled the driver might not have pulled out. Not signalling also keeps both hands on the bars where they can cover the brakes in case the car does pull out.
Signalled too earlier and car driver pulled out without making sure the cyclists were turning left, although I do suspect they never even seen them.
I'm more shocked by the adult's early signal and then him uploading to youtube berating the car driver. He (the adult cyclist) seems to have no road sense.
Signalled too early but car driver shouldn't have pulled out, I know internet threads have to identify a goodie and a baddie though so I'm calling it the car because indicating too early is confusing but pulling out in front of traffic kills people.
I watched it a few times the kids arm goes out at the very start of the junction a quick glance from the driver would have given him the impression the kid was going to turn into the left not go straight on to the roundabout . Not a manuvere I would have made as a car driver but not a signal I would have made as a cyclist . The dad's signal was so early it makes no sense at all and if one puts any intelligent meaning to it it would have to be left at the side road not straight on to the roundabout. If it had been seen by the car it would have contributed to the driver misreading the kid and pulling out.
Over all daddy is a bit of a part for trying to make a you tube thing out of this .
[quote=crankboy said]I watched it a few times the kids arm goes out at the very start of the junction a quick glance from the driver would have given him the impression the kid was going to turn into the left not go straight on to the roundabout . Not a manuvere I would have made as a car driver but not a signal I would have made as a cyclist . The dad's signal was so early it makes no sense at all and if one puts any intelligent meaning to it it would have to be left at the side road not straight on to the roundabout. If it had been seen by the car it would have contributed to the driver misreading the kid and pulling out.
Over all daddy is a bit of a part for trying to make a you tube thing out of this .
Exactly.
I very rarely defend drivers on threads like this - and I'm not about to break the habit now - but actually whilst I might have been a bit irritated by the car pulling out there, it wasn't even at all dangerous as there was plenty of space in front of the bikes. Not suggesting it was correct to pull out, but that wouldn't likely even make it into my top 10 stupid things drivers have done this week.
Adult was/is an idiot.
Not suggesting it was correct to pull out, but that wouldn't likely even make it into my top 10 stupid things drivers have done this week.
+1
[quote=STATO ]
Do you really think indicating left on a bike makes a significant difference to other road users?
If something is waiting at the junction then yes quite obviously.
Only if the vehicle waiting at the junction assumes things from the indication without paying any attention to what the cyclist is doing. Which you shouldn't do. If the driver waits to be sure the cyclist is turning as they should, then the indication adds almost nothing.
Though at the worst, not indicating might cost a vehicle waiting a few seconds. Boo hoo. Compared to the loss of control of my bicycle and the dangers of the indication being misinterpreted that's something they'll just have to put up with.
As the driver, faced with an approaching child on a bike, I would have waited no matter what signal he gave.
Exactly. Anyone acting any different is an idiot tbh.
As the driver, faced with an approaching child on a bike, I would have waited no matter what signal he gave.Exactly. Anyone acting any different is an idiot tbh.
Perfectly put, although I'd say ANYONE on a bike.
Kid signaled, but he [b]didn't turn[/b], surely you check that before you pull out?
[quote=TheBrick said]As the driver, faced with an approaching child on a bike, I would have waited no matter what signal he gave.
Exactly. Anyone acting any different is an idiot tbh.
The problem being that there are loads of idiots driving cars, and giving them misleading signals is asking for aggro 🙂
spooky_b329 - Member
The signal was a bit early but to be honest it looks like the driver was doing the usual 'must get out before that bike holds me up' would've done it regardless.
This. Driver was going regardless of whether the kid had indicated or not. See it all the time.
Kid indicated too soon, but not gonna have a great deal of road sense and experience at that age so can't really be blamed.
Dad indicated ridiculously early!
Always better to not indicate at all that indicate incorrectly (on bike or car)
No indication leaves them guessing so they have to wait whereas incorrect indication leads to what happened here
And of course, everyone on here knows how to drive/ride/cycle/signal/bring up kids/etc/etcetcetc better than everyone else.
[i]Do you really think indicating left on a bike makes a significant difference to other road users?[/i]
+1
IME on a bike, motorcycle or as a pedestrian you should really only consider your own safety - and therefore act accordingly.
I would have ignored the childs signal but given how early the adult was signalling I would have been out and away.
Thanks br, the point I was trying to make, but didnt do very well. Not indicating whilst riding a bike is simply an inconvenience to other road users. Yet a car driver saving a couple of seconds seems to have equal importance to the safety of cyclists.
I understand what you mean aracer but I'm not entirely convinced.
Consider the situation where you have a driver behind you itching to get past. If he sees you signalling left when he is going a different direction, then he might decide to just wait those few more seconds rather than try a dodgy overtake.
That said, I do agree that often being in proper control of the bike with both hands ready at the brakes is more important than signalling.
In circumstances like that I might well indicate for the reasons you suggest Graham, it's not an absolute thing - strangely enough I was trying to think of a situation where I might indicate and that was one I came up with (I can even think of a junction where I often do so). In the original video, nobody at all is helped by the indicating.
Yep I think we are in agreement there aracer (not unusually on these threads).
In the scenario in the video I wouldn't have signalled until I was clear of the junction. I probably would have signalled at the roundabout, just as a courtesy, but not if I felt I might need my hands for anything more important like braking or steering!
Lessons in road craft for all three.
The Lad is learning, doing well but needs clear guidance from someone with fewer bad habits.
The Dad, see above, but good work for getting out on the bike with the kids.
The driver, you were fed a duff signal, that's why we don't trust what other people tell us. only act on what they do.
Its a kid on a bike, grown ups in cars can be pretty unpredictable.
Better safe than sorry.
Me, its a good reminder that really simple operations can go wrong.
In that situation you shouldn't indication left until you have past the exit before yours. (bike if at all-2 hands on the bars)
But I'd have taken the middle of the lane.
Cant really see an issue, other than the car pulling out on the kid a little late. The car didn't actually cause ANYTHING to happen. Its not like anyone had to do anything (like brake or swerve) to prevent a collision, but it was a little late, so perhaps unnerving for the kid.
The adults signal is largely irrelevant as it happens way to soon before the junction and the approaching car would not have even seen it.
If I was being picky then the kids signal is too early, too brief and could easily be missed.
Total non issue and something that happens daily.
The Dad's refuting all youtube comments suggesting he was in the wrong to indicate left before the side road junction 🙂
Just read them. Dad is a muppet who doesn't like criticism.
From the poster of the video: [i] I am a Bikeability instructor and teach on that road. The boy is in primary, I'm taking the lane we're both going too fast to be turning into the side road. Nothing about our positioning says anything other than its towards the roundabout. [/i]
Nothing about our positioning says anything other than its towards the roundabout.
Good grief! The kid is signaling left just before a junction. Of course the driver might think if he is signaling left he intends to turn left. A signal will overrule road positioning.
And he thinks a driver can judge a bike's speed well enough to rule that out. Dangerously wrong. Muppet.
[i]I am a Bikeability instructor and teach on that road. The boy is in primary, I'm taking the lane we're both going too fast to be turning into the side road. Nothing about our positioning says anything other than its towards the roundabout. [/i]
From my point of view it look like the kid sees the car coming then signals. Had I been the driver I would have thought the kid is letting me know its safe to go. Adult signaled way to early.
In that situation I probably wouldn't have indicated at any point and just taken up the correct position on the road. How would the driver know what speed they are capable of cornering at and if they are going that fast then its too fast to be approaching a roundabout.
I am a Bikeability instructor and teach on that road
I'm now really glad it's nowhere near me, as I might be forced to remove my kid if he was taking the bikeability course. Though in a way I'm not surprised - I almost mentioned earlier that doubtless such courses teach kids that it's more important for them to indicate so that car drivers can save a few seconds than to keep both hands on the bars for better control in tricky situations.
"Nothing about our positioning says anything other than its towards the roundabout."
See I always thought the general idea was to Signal and THEN Manoeuvre - so even if the driver was observant enough to clock their road position, it isn't a great source of information given that they are both signalling that they would like to change it!
Kid and adult signalled too early for me, I'd have signalled but not until I was past the left hand turning and about level with the car. That was those on the roundabout would have know what I was doing but the car would have not had any confusion.
The car took an educated guess as well, not an unreasonable one but still a bit of a guess/assumption.
Overall, all 3 were in the wrong to some degree though I reckon the car was the least in the wrong.
you can't take someone's signal as an indication that it's safe to go. Signal or no signal, the driver MUST ensure it's safe to pull out, if that means waiting until a vehicle has pulled in after signalling then so be it.
The car in the video pulled out irrespective of the cyclists hand signals, it was one of those ignorant moves towards someone on a bike.
you can't take someone's signal as an indication that it's safe to go. Signal or no signal, the driver MUST ensure it's safe to pull out, if that means waiting until a vehicle has pulled in after signalling then so be it.
Correct. But some drivers do assume a left signal means a left turn. Especially a cyclist signal which is a positive action unlike a car indicator which can be left on by mistake.
So a left signal is wrong where it can be misinterpreted.
the instructor did him over by telling him tom signal there. The only way that signal can be interpreted is that I'm turning left here, it's ok for you to pull out guy in car. The only reason to signal was to tell the car waiting your intention, it's not for anyone else's benefit. If yhe wouldn't have signalled the car might have waited.
[i]you can't take someone's signal as an indication that it's safe to go. Signal or no signal, the driver MUST ensure it's safe to pull out, if that means waiting until a vehicle has pulled in after signalling then so be it.[/i]
You're right, and I wouldn't have pulled out.
But as the car approaches, the kid sticks his hand out. To me that's saying 'I'm giving you a clear signal that I'm going left here so on you go'. I generally don't pull out on vehicles indicating until it starts to turn.
But as the car approaches, the kid sticks his hand out.
The videographer/dad signals way before that though and says in the comments that the kid signalled too late! 😯
The videographer/dad signals way before that though and says in the comments that the kid signalled too late!
I'd argue the kid was still too early. Whether or not the car was there. When I'm approaching a roundabout in primary (single lane road) I want to keep any cars behind me behind me. A left signal too early encourages them to start overtaking me. No signal leaves them guessing and hopefully back behind me.
Near the roundabout I'll shoulder check, signal, and take an appropriate position. I'll signal when I'm close enough that any traffic entering the RAB from the first exit can see my signal and know I'm going left, or see my RH signal and know I'm going R and he'll have to stop. The kid's signal was too early to be of value to traffic entering the RAB and probably caused the car to pull out.
In the junction in the video I wouldn't have signalled until past the road on the left if there was a car approaching in that road.
And obviously if sightlines are clear enough that I can see there are no traffic or peds that will benefit from a signal then I won't signal.
+1 generallyI rarely do indicate left whilst riding a bike as it certainly doesn't make it any safer for me
Most left turns on a bike don't need a reduction in speed (blind/sharp/conditions/etc vary) so you're not "holding up" anyone, other than by just being on the road. If i have to slow down or there is no one behind me but someone waiting to pull out of the side street I'm turning into I'll signal. Otherwise signalling just seems to invite drivers to turn left whilst overtaking you and lessens your control.just makes drivers think all cyclists are **** for holding them up and not bothering to signal?
Agree incorrect signals are worse than no signals (soooo many people don't know how to signal on roundabouts)
Of course we are assuming the driver even saw the cyclists.
Even Without the misleading signal i'd hazzard a guess the video would be exactly the same.
I cant believe its got this far and no one seems to have noticed that the car didn't even wait at the junction. Barely slowed for it in fact. I expect that the diver didn't even see then bike let alone the signal so regardless of the rights and wrongs of a child's hand signal, the car driver is entirely wrong. Had they slowed properly for the junction, the bikes would have been that bit further up the road and a they would have to have stopped or mowed them down.
Its whats know as careless driving and it usually ends up as a SMIDSY.
Of course you don't know that without asking the driver. What can't be disputed is that he signalled too early and was 'taught' to do so.
I like the dads line on Youtube about his son knowing an idiot when he sees one. He has had 8 years practice living with his dad so should do by now...