[Closed] Sick of Shimano brakes, what should I buy?

You all know the story, its been documented enough.

News to me, mine have been faultless for years, never even had to bleed them

Sounds just like mine Dunc.

I hear ya Rob. Just did the same thing.
Went with Guides. Great brake, but I'm still struggling to get the lever throw short enough. This may be an issue for you, or not. I really liked the short throw in Shimano brakes.
Best of luck

APF

News to me too, I maintain a fleet of 30 bikes all with shimano brakes, I never touch them.
Sorry OP!

Want my crap double bit point impossible to bleed shimano's guys?

Just got my E4's on new rotors, awesome and I expect to be using them in 5 years time

sounds like you could do with a nice pair of sram guide RS's...

http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/fs-full-set-of-sram-guide-rs-brakes

If I were in your shoes I'd consider Magura.

My dad was dogged by problems with leaky Shimano brakes, got a set currently going for warranty inspection (as if fluid running down the back of the pads after 11 months of almost non-use wasn't enough of a give-away).

I've had SRAM, and although they worked great, the squeeling and weird resonant vibration from the rear brake in particular, has put me off them, not sure if it's the rotors, the pads or the tolerances, but even with different rotors and a variety of pad compounds, they were just unpleasant to use.

Magura claimed to have specifically developed the MT range to for quiet use, which is a big thumbs up from me.

Problem is, this thread will go the same way as lots of other threads on this topic, i.e. lots of people who have enjoyed perfect, flawless braking from each brand. There are obviously lots of factors that the manufacturers can't or won't design for which affect the performance and durability of a brake, not to mention good old quality control 🙄

Anyway, Magura get my vote if you need to go hydraulic, otherwise TRP for cable, that's what I did and it's been relatively plain sailing since.

Guides seem good.

Saying that, I've not lost a drop of fluid from a Shimano since I stopped buying generic mineral oil and stuck to the Shimano stuff.

Agreed get a full set of guides, but these ones 😉

[url= http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/sram-guide-rs-brakes-complete-with-180mm-discs-and-hardware ]For Sale[/url]

So none you guys have heard of people having issues with leaking Shimano calipers? Not been any threads on here with others having problems?

Apologies.

Magura. My MT2's are ace - powerful, modulated, 5 year warranty. And they are the cheap ones.

I had the same problem.

I switched to Hope, they've been great. Only issue is they squeal a bit in the wet when first being used, but work just fine and soon sort themselves out.

Much better modulation as well, if you like that.

durhamrob - Member
So none you guys have heard of people having issues with leaking Shimano calipers? Not been any threads on here with others having problems?

Apologies.

In your defence, there's been a few yes. Not loads though..

Thanks for the helpful answers guys. At least I didn't imagine the issue! 😀

So none you guys have heard of people having issues with leaking Shimano calipers? Not been any threads on here with others having problems?

Apologies.

Nah they're having you on, it is a known problem, and I've junked a pile of leaky Deore / SLX and XT calipers over the years.

I'm not sure if it was the fact I stopped using Non-Shimano fluid or they fixed it, but the problem went away completely for me about 3 years ago with a set of M785 brakes. Sadly they died when the lever end broke... still the warranty M8000s are absolutely brilliant, the last brakes I had that were this good were my old Hope Tech V2s (which felt like they should pull up a Space Shuttle from an orbital descent).

The Guides are a fine brake, one of my Pals has them and loves them - he broke a little do-dar in the barrel adjuster, which oddly for a SRAM thing he was able to buy a replacement for, they're 4 pots which is cool, if my XTs break I might consider a pair - I dislike Dot fluid, but modern brakes hardly ever seem to need to be bled any more.

Sick of Shimano brakes, what should I buy?

In reality nobody makes trouble free brakes but a percentage of people will find them zero hassle and the rest have problems. For me Hope were the biggest disasters, with master cylinders and calipers cracking, constantly sticking pistons and leaky seals. Customer service and free repairs are brilliant but not in the middle of an 8 hour ride in the Highlands.

In your defence, there's been a few yes. Not loads though

I've got 5 deore calipers than have all eventually done this, some sooner than others. 100% strike rate. I cant really comment on other peoples experiences, nor am I really bothered. My experiences of Shimano has put me off.

Might have to do a bit more reading up on the Magura MT2, my wallet likes the look of these. Although Hope do look good too.

So none you guys have heard of people having issues with leaking Shimano calipers? Not been any threads on here with others having problems?

Can't help with recommending other brakes, but at least you know you're not imagining it 🙂

Hope.

Bombproof these days. Four sets going strong in my family, 1 pair of 2009ish V2s, I pair of decade old minis, one pair of 2016 E4s and one pair of 2013 year old X2s.

It's certainly a real problem, but IME, limited to the older brakes

My dad's were 2017 model year flat mount road callipers, so not old 🙁

Find brakes a complete roulette regardless of brand.

After 5 callipers I’d suggest it’s not Shimanos fault but more like operator error somehow.

So now that my sanity has been confirmed.......

Is there any reason to go for MT4 or MT5 over the MT2 for my purposes, given the deore were enough power. Also do I need new rotors, a quick internet browse seems to suggest I should swap to Magura rotors. Also what, if anything do I need to attach my shifter?

Or will the Hopes, Tech 3 X2 be a better, if more expensive option in terms of maintainability. I think I can attach the shifters straight to the brakes and reuse rotors (after a good scrub).

On a completely unrelated topic, does anyone want to buy some nearly new shimano brakes, a spare caliper, bleed kit and about 750ml of genuine oil?

[i]So none you guys have heard of people having issues with leaking Shimano calipers?[/i]

Yep - very early set of XTs. Not actually heard of any other models. Son has had Deores on his daily used bike, all good; my road ones fine. And even those early, leaky ones I had were fine after I changed the hoses and connectors for Uber ones. XTRs, no problems. Newer 785 XTs on my newest bike, been great.
But hey, get some Hopes!

On a completely unrelated topic, does anyone want to buy some nearly new shimano brakes, a spare caliper, bleed kit and about 750ml of genuine oil?

14/15 ones did the double bounce impossible to bleed thing
Bored of the crap really an the E4's kock the XT's into next week in terms of power and feel

PeterPoddy - Member

After 5 callipers I’d suggest it’s not Shimanos fault but more like operator error somehow.

I'm not going to say it definitely isn't user error, but i'm not sure what i'm doing to cause the issues. Fine when the bike goes away, awful next ride. I'm going with bad luck. I suspect the fact the bike can sit for a while between rides doesn't help either.

Maybe the missus is eying up the insurance payout and applying oil to the brakes when i'm not looking!

Either way, even if it is my fault somehow, a change might eliminate that aspect of it.

PeterPoddy - Member
After 5 callipers I’d suggest it’s not Shimanos fault but more like operator error somehow.

Just luck of the draw I think, I had a set of SLX for years with no problems. I then broke a caliper in a crash and had to replace it three times before I got one which didn't leak very slightly from the piston.

The symptom is a very slight oil leak which somehow ends up on the rotors while the bike is stored.

60 bikes from the hire fleet have Shimano hydros. Not one issue.

My own bikes with a range of M770, M970 and M8000. One issue.

I had a wandering bite point after installing the M8000 rear. A full bleed - according to the Shimano instructions - and it's been perfect this past 18 months or so.

ive had no issues with XT or Deore brakes over the last 15yrs, Sram on the otherhand 🙄

Or will the Hopes, Tech 3 X2 be a better, if more expensive option in terms of maintainability. I think I can attach the shifters straight to the brakes and reuse rotors

Do yourself a favour and get Tech E4s.

Only go with X2s if you're an XC weight weenie, and then the purchase that makes sense is the Race X2 model.

I've had two sets of borked rear Deore brakes now, so it's not you.

Sram on the otherhand

60 bikes from the hire fleet have Shimano hydros. Not one issue.

My own bikes with a range of M770, M970 and M8000. One issue.

The symptom is a very slight oil leak which somehow ends up on the rotors while the bike is stored.

I know exactly what the issue is. It’s a rare issue but it does happen. After 5 callipers I’d be looking elsewhere for the problem, that’s what I’m saying: Storage location, lubrication issues, bedding in, cheap pads, leak form the hose where it’s been removed so many times etc.

I maintain a fleet of bikes with this exact brake on. I’ve fitted something like 30+ pairs of these and I service the bikes every month. I’ve had a few squeaky ones too but every single one of them has been cured by cleaning the rotor and changing the pads. I suspect the issue with my users is that they like to spray oil everywhere, and that what does it.

In the OPs case I’d be looking at the hose connection as mentioned, and the rotor. I’ve had issues with rotors causing odd issues like this in the past, almost as if the contamination is impregnated into them.

[i]In the OPs case I’d be looking at the hose connection as mentioned[/i]

Yup, as mentioned a set of Uber hoses with replacement connections sorted mine. Brakes on that bike are excellent.

...but every single one of them has been cured by cleaning the rotor and changing the pads...

The comment on the hose coupling is interesting, although in the case of the ones I've seen, I suspect that the coupling hasn't been disturbed since it left the factory and there's never any visible contamination on the outside of the caliper. My own assumption has always been that the piston seals are seeping slightly, but TBH, I just replaced them and moved on at this point.

I’ve had issues with rotors causing odd issues like this in the past, almost as if the contamination is impregnated into them

I've had brakes much improved by changing rotors. Not able to explain why, but glad someone else has noticed it and I'm not totally imagining it. For me changing 8 year old rotors for new ones made a big difference.

Just for balance I did run a set of SLX (M666 I think) which were pretty trouble free. Sold them with the last bike.

Changing rotors, cables, pads (again) might well solve the issue but to be honest I've spent too much time on these things already. Every time I change them, or just clean rotors, put in new pads and bed in they are fine.....for a while at least. Leave them sat for a few weeks, and back to square 1.

So I think I'm just going to try the Magura MT2, whats the worst that can happen, cant be any worse right! Although when I price it all up, figure out what I need etc I'm not ruling out a set of Hopes.

So new Magura or used Hopes? lol

I've had Hopes in the past and, of course, you can get all of the parts for them to if you buy used, they are easy and cheap to service and return to mint condition. This would be my choice, if you can get a good set.

Magura MT5 get my vote, love mine! Get the Split pads once the 1 piece ones wear out to get most of the features of the MT7 at a cheaper price (apart from MT7 being tool less i believe.)

Biggest Pros for me are cost (look around £65 and end on sale) and Mineral Brake fluid, none of that nasty corrosive DOT and it doesn't absorb water!

Biggest Pros for me are cost (look around £65 and end on sale) and Mineral Brake fluid, none of that nasty corrosive DOT and it doesn't absorb water!

But the flip side of that is that when water inevitably gets into the system (unless you only ride in the dry) then it will lurk at the lower part of the system, the caliper, and boil causing huge brake fade when the caliper gets hot. Brake fluid instead absorbs the water and although it's boiling point lowers it stays way above that of water. And water inside the system will cause corrosion.

Pros and cons!

Shirley for water to get in, fluid in a pressurised system would leak out. No leaks, no water contamination?

This is the best thing i've read about mineral oil vs dot fluid

http://www.epicbleedsolutions.com/blog/dot-brake-fluid-vs-mineral-oil/

"This water content finds it's way into the brake fluid via microscopic pores in brake hoses, seals, joints and seams"

+1 for Magura. My MT4's have been great. The Gustavs I used to have were also faultless. The few Shimano's in between were [i]okay[/i]

The only thing with Magura IIRC is that the disc is 2mm thick as opposed to the industry standard 1.8mm.

MT5's are dual piston, MT4/2 are single piston.

MT5's have monster power. More than Zee's, more than Formula The Ones.

Price is good too.

I'm using a lifeline front rotor and clarkes rear rotor. I assume they are both 1.8mm but I've had no issue with either. Will replace both with Magura when necessary as their discs don't seem too badly priced.

I've had my MT5's about 4 months after getting fed up with shimano's
They where initialy improved by taking the MT5 standard pads out (once completely worn in a month)
And putting the individual MT7 ones in (uberbike do these also).
But I didn't like the stupid big levers at all so upgraded to the single finger HC levers.

I got these cheap from DE as they are stupid expense at RRP.
I haven't got a clue why these aren't supplied as standard as they honestly change the brakes from very good to outstanding.

So I think I'm just going to try the Magura MT2, whats the worst that can happen

I have to admit I'm tempted by the MT2 for my next HT build simply on the basis of price, basic 2 pots with a flipable lever, they seem like a reasonable option... Anyone tried them?

Just stripped my rear deore caliper as oil was finding its way onto the pads. It looks really good even though about 4 years use. One side was fine. Other (oily side) had corrosion under seal. Cleaned it up and put it back together. Seems OK. See how it goes.

Forgive me, but that's not a cure.

Is is the cure if the issue isn't a leak in the calliper or similar. As I said, in my cases it's because the users are over zealous with the spray lube. I've done it on my own bike too. I'd love to have a look at the OPs bike, I think he's blinkered by calliper issues, after replacing it 5 times he's fixated by it.

Thanks for all the helpful replies.

Seems to be a lot of love for the Maguras out there, I'm sold.

So with that in mind what am i missing about this ebay listing, surely too good to be true? Theres got to be a catch right?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Magura-MT2-Disc-Brake-2-Position-Front-Rear-Set-Hydraulic-w-160mm-rotors-/322045704781?epid=0&hash=item4afb6b7a4d:g:pVMAAOSwMVdYIcvt

Just to add i quickly pulled the pads out of the deores when i got home from work there. No sign of any obvious leaks anywhere. There is however slight signs of fluid on the back of the pads, nothing major. Nothing around the connectors either.

So i pumped the leaver a little with the pads out, on both calipers the pistons don't move equally. The piston on the side of the caliper where the hose connects moves a lot less. Coincidence - probably. Anyway, I then pumped the leaver with the moving piston clamped in place and the other one seemed to move freely enough, didn't seem stuck at all. Pump leaver with both pistons free and same uneven movement. No sign of any fluid when i was doing all this.

I hate it when things don't work for no obvious reason, I need to know! lol

Shimano brakes do do this Poddy, I've had two pairs of deore's do it, stored in various places, I don't use any sprays at all in the shed, pads get contaminated on their own, they can be fine, all new, good for a ride or two, leave in shed for a week, no brakes. It's very well documented across most shimano brakes.

A few things to try/think about.

Did you reset the pistons before trying again? I.e. Push them both back in fully.

Are you sure they are properly bled?

Also how do you line up your calipers? Do you get the disc central in the slot and then bolt up or do the loose bolts and put the brakes on thing? I find the former works better if the pads aren't unevenly worn.

So with that in mind what am i missing about this ebay listing, surely too good to be true? Theres got to be a catch right?

If you're OK with:

Dispatches from: China, Hong Kong
Delivery to United Kingdom: Est. 2 Oct - 26 Oct

Then it's all good... Probably.

But TBH I would pay that bit more to buy them at least within Europe (if not the UK), just in case I did have to try and make a warranty claim/return...

garage-dweller - Member
A few things to try/think about.

Did you reset the pistons before trying again? I.e. Push them both back in fully.

Are you sure they are properly bled?

Also how do you line up your calipers? Do you get the disc central in the slot and then bolt up or do the loose bolts and put the brakes on thing? I find the former works better if the pads aren't unevenly worn.

Yep piston fully reset.
Brakes seem bled well enough.
Normally align the calipers by eye, the pull brakes and tighten bolts method never seems to work for me.

When they work they are great brakes, easy to bleed, good power, I'm just sick of never knowing if they are going to work the next morning or not!
The above was more of an observation than anything else, they are destined for the bin (or ebay as 'spares or repairs' more likely - someone will take them).

No worries, a few random thoughts just in case.

I think I may either have a leaky one myself (needs looking at tomorrow) or its some very squeaky Kevlar pads.

Fwiw I have 3 sets of Deore brakes going back to 2003 and this 2010 ish caliper will (if it is leaky) be the only one that's ever given grief despite copious neglect.

I've had a pair of older hopes too. Front caliper flawless, rear more troublesome. There are no perfect brake makers!

I've ordered a lot from China/Hong Kong over the years, always got here and always as described, mostly lower priced items.

They do occasionally like their counterfeit good though, not sure how these could be but i'd hate the brake equivalent of the copycat cars they knock out to turn up!

Probably right about the warranty thing as well, better safe than sorry.

Fwiw I have 3 sets of Deore brakes going back to 2003 and this 2010 ish caliper will (if it is leaky) be the only one that's ever given grief despite copious neglect.

The SLX i had previously were excellent, not a pick of bother despite similar levels of neglect (my bikes get a wash when it rains, I only really maintain the drivetrain). These deores have be awful though and put me off trying any of the more expensive ones.

The symptom is a very slight oil leak which somehow ends up on the rotors while the bike is stored.

One of my Shimano calipers started leaking, luckily, it was a day inside warranty still 😀

It was on the Dh bike and it hadn't been used a good while, boffins on here said that's what started leaking.

Bikes stored front wheels up, resting on their rear wheels fwiw

New I just pull the levers every so often, keep things moving.

If I wasn't a Saint fanboi I'd go Magura.

My sh set of Magura louise freerides are still one of the most reliable brakes of my past. Bombproof.

P-Jay - Member
Shirley for water to get in, fluid in a pressurised system would leak out. No leaks, no water contamination?

No hydraulic brake is a 'pressurised system'.

fairly convinced that what people think is a subtle piston leak at the calliper is in fact coming from the crimped on rubbish quality hose. This makes its way to the pads, causes air in the system and variable bite. Fixed by quality fittings and hose and an ability to do a very thourough, correct bleed.

The problem seems to be far more common with rear callipers.. (from what I can tell)

I'm not sure which bit you mean is crimped though? Or is that only Deore???
The hoses go onto the banjo's .... with the olive ... which bit is crimped?
After a lot of trouble free riding the rear brake lost braking on Sunday... I had to get home, jump in a shower and get a flight so I haven't looked yet... but I have a spare hose I've been meaning to get round to fitting anyway as the current one is routed externally as it was a bit short after changing across bikes)

I'm on Sram guides but I am curious about Magura disc brakes - have read some good things about them and fancy trying the 4 pots with the monster power. No bike needs new discs though - the guides are only months old and are perf ct for me with 200/180mm discs. The hardtail has barely used Deores on it - they were new 'old stock' so have a horrible long brake lever on them but for a bit of commuting / playing on pump tracks they are good (and only cost £30 for the pair with rotors).

No hydraulic brake is a 'pressurised system'.

Even when you pull the lever?

[img] https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTqPjw0hlyGLubIAWrtLdYhGWl-yBZodcMrwthPn8qGyxWqDSOjqA [/img]

Thread closed.

The problem seems to be far more common with rear callipers.. (from what I can tell)

I've had Hopes (A long time ago and not really for long enough to tell how well they lasted - bike got nicked - but a good brake for its time), Maguras (back when they were single piston - horrendous, squealed like a pig, not that effective, and needed bleeding all the time, not to mention the need for manual adjustment as they were single piston...) Avids (Juicys - a fairly terrible experience) and now a load of trouble free cheapo Shimanos (save for occasional bleeding).

I'm not convinced my lack of trouble with Shimano is anything but luck though. I guess what I'm trying to say is that something that gets mud chucked at it, gets hot, gets left in a damp garage, and then gets caked in mud and turned upside down from time to time for good measure will need some maintenance.

I'm not convinced you've got a leaky caliper if it's going away after one hill's worth of bedding in either, it could be any form of contamination with a bit of damp. But whatever you go for will not be fit and forget.

Looks like a fairly well reported common issue (the rate of warranty return tells you that) so lets just accept it's actually been an issue.
Changing hoses on new brakes to make them work sounds like there are issues.
Met plenty with the impossible to bleed variable bite point crap ones.
Their selling point is their price and the fact shimano will keep sending you new ones for a year.

Is that the caliper beside the big, spinny, oily thing?

scotroutes - Member
The problem seems to be far more common with rear callipers.. (from what I can tell)
Is that the caliper beside the big, spinny, oily thing?

It would be really easy to tell as there would be a fine film of oil over the stays, spokes, hub etc. In fact you could probably tell just by looking as it would only be on the drive side too.

It's hardly ever [i]that[/i] much fluid, mike.

I've recently changed XT brakes for SRAM guides for same reason. XT's fine for first few rides then squeal of death. Cleaned it all, replaced rotors and pads, still same. Guides seem much better and I didn't think i'd be saying that a couple of years back.

DezB - Member
It's hardly ever that much fluid, mike.

I'd certainly be investigating that cause before chucking new calipers at it.

Well yep, as the calipers are identical then it would seem to be something to do with the hose... or mounting direction of the caliper

Is that the caliper beside the big, spinny, oily thing?

I'm trying to work out what the crimped bit is though... ??? Is that on SLX/XT or is it just on the Deore hoses???

Treated my Shimano bike in exactly that same way as my SRAM bikes and the only issue I've had is on my Shimano braked bike. First calipers lasted 6 months, the next only 2 months. Pistons visibly wet behind pads, outside of calipers is dry so unlikely to be lube fling. Don't use spray lubes either. Even if it was spray lubes causing problems it seems pretty bad material choice to me. Could be a hose issue as only my calipers was changed, but again after 8 months use that's not acceptable.
Bike came from lbs who I've know for years and he has 3 or 4 sets across the price range away at the moment. Has returned brakes off his own bike as well.

Just waiting on a set of Guide RS coming as I'm done with Shimano brakes.

fairly convinced that what people think is a subtle piston leak at the calliper is in fact coming from the crimped on rubbish quality hose.

It it was the hose it would not be fixed by replacing the caliper....

I've had three shimano brakes where I've had to change the calipers. Admittedly two of those were old lx ones from my commuter than is never cleaned however they went is exactly the same as the newer SLX did. Squealing, no power, work better towards the end of the ride (or much better in the rain). Issue persists over different pads and discs. Its definitely a caliper problem. I have used pads that were squealing on the old caliper on the replacement and they worked fine. That is a pretty big pointer.

Back on topic. Hope E4 front and X2 rear for me (180mm rotors front and rear). Four pistons on the back is not really necessary and are more of a pain to keep running smoothly.

For my other bike I'm going to try some Magura's if the Shimano's have another issue.

mikewsmith - Member

by the sounds of the way people are amazingly fine with hire fleets then it's batches/years at fault rather than everything so more of a lottery.

Yes, or their bikes never sit long enough to see the issue or their clients are not used to the bike so don't notice the brakes aren't feeling right straight away, etc etc.

In my case(s) it was definitely not the hose, I wrapped kitchen roll round it and there was no mark.

Not a hose issue on the Deore's I don't think, there's no crimped hose on them at all, hose goes straight into the caliper with an olive and a nut, same as into the cylinder/lever.

I've cleaned calipers, dried them, reset pistons, bled them, cleaned rotors, new rotors, new pads, everything, the same issue always comes back at some point.

It's loss of power and lots of squealing, upon inspection the pads are always contaminated. I tend to cook mine on the camp stove now (as it was getting silly expensive replacing them), then lightly sand them, you can see the crap evaporate/smoke out. After this and cleaning the discs, re-bedded in they're ok for a bit, like new, then the process starts over.