[Closed] Sick as a dog so, show me you Bivi / Bikepacking / Adventure racing gear.....

yeah my coke can stove goes out immediately if I put the pot directly on top. Figures really, like you said, it's gotta get air from somewhere.

I think if my 'A' level Chemistry is right that it is going out because the cold pan cools the stove too much and the meths then cools and doesn't evaporate as well.

Nothing to do with a lack of air. The gaseous meths mixes with the air and therefore combustion occurs after it has left the jet holes.

Air and combustion inside the stove under pressure would result in a bang!

A proper 'Pop can' stove 🙂

ah you are clearly far wiser than I in the ways of burning stuff :-). I seem to recall it does it even when the pot is hot, but I'll have a mess about with it later & see.

Not sure that's going to work, cardboard at a minimum but I would recommend aluminium though.

I reckon after using one if you can make the two piece one it would be better for the bike as it would pack better

Stoves - what flatfish said is right I reckon. I think the ratio of height to internal diameter, and possibly material is key to the Whitebox performing properly. If you built a pop can stove of comparable height and diameter, you might fnd it doesn't go out when you put the stove on top.

Just back in from the workshop to make a brew. So we're thinking that any combustion is taking place outside the stove once the pan goes on top and it's the physical heat of the stove which keeps the vapourised meths alight (a kind of glowplug effect). There also seems to be a direct link between how long the flames are (from jet to pan bottom) and how well the thing will stay lit, a sort of optimum flame length. Ok, back to the workshop 😉

As Titanium is a poor conductor, this possibly explains why the decagon needs the little pips on the top to raise the pan up, and the Whitebox being a thicker alloy material (better heat conductor) doesn't. The thin nature of the pop can stove may also be a limiting factor in the stove staying alight with the pan placed on top.

Ok, back to the workshop

[url= http://www.andyhowell.info/Colin-Ibbotson/colin-esbit-stove.html ]MYOG Foil wind shield contruction ideas[/url]

IanB - thought this might give you some ideas for your Caldera Cone... out with the rolling pin! Nice counterpoint to the use of CAD 😉

Right then, just knocked a stove up but used a can bottom and a can top rather than 2 bottoms. Once bloomed you can sit a pan on top and it doesn't go out, however the flames do die down a little. I'll file some small air grooves in the top edge (that's why I used a top, so I'd have a solid edge to work with) and see if that makes a difference ... back to the kettle, sorry I mean workshop.

I think we can safely say that combustion takes place outside the stove.

The air grooves act as secondry jets when the pan is directly on top of the stove. It would seem that the deciding factor in whether your stove goes out with a pan directly on top, is more to do with the angle and location of the jets.

Well that's most of a morning wasted, so I'll go and do something more productive now 😀

you're doing the science of bikepacking a great service, well done 🙂

I'll go and do something more productive now

Looking at the WRT blog and your most recent stove, I note they don't have an internal sleeve like the Whitebox and some other home made stoves I've seen. I wonder if this is necessary to allow you to put the stove direct on top of the burner?

As I see it, once the stove and all the fuel is up to temparature sufficient to ignite meths (80 degrees Celsius), with a twin walled stove the centre is storing heat and pressure is created by virtue of it being sealed at the top by the pan. The increased pressure forces the fuel into the outer chamber by two small holes at the base of the inner chamber. From there, the only exit is out through the jets, so you have meths gas at >80 degrees C meeting air and bingo, combustion. Once it's going, the heat generated by the whole system is sufficient to keep it going until it runs out of fuel.

Look again Ian ... they have an internal sleeve. The first picture in part 2 shows the sleeve marked out for cutting 😉

OK, right I see now 😳

How about reducing the size and/or number of notches in the bottom of the sleeve to increase the pressure a bit. You could make the jet holes smaller? Do you apply any sealant to the top of the sleeve, where it engages in the inside edge of the top piece?

Damn it, I've got two perfectly good stoves in my collection which I have trouble deciding which to use anyway. Now you're making want to go to the garage and make one of my own!

Been reading all this thread with huge amount of interest. Sadly won't make it to this years WRT, but fired up to do some lightweight bike-biviing and stove building.

How does a caldera type stove with solid fuel compare to the meths stove?

I don't think altering the number or size of the feed holes will have much effect, I'm pretty sure the pressure between the inner and outer chambers will equal itself out. Saying that though ... I can see that smaller feed holes could be a benefit as you get towards the end of the fuel, as a smaller hole will be below the fuel level for longer which might help maintain a higher internal pressure in the outer chamber towards the end of the burn. 😯

I suppose the obvious way to increase internal pressure would be to reduce the internal size of the stove and/ or use more fuel (which would reduce the internal size) ... obviously the pressure would start to drop as the fuel was used. The other option as you say, is smaller jets ... restrict the gas getting out and the internal pressure must increase.

I'd say the latter, make the jets smaller.

I shall make one with tiny jets and compare boil times. I'd be interested to see if it has a negative effect on output (smaller flames) or will the (hopefully) increase in pressure produce a hotter/more intense flame?

EDIT: Supersessions, I haven't played around with solid fuel since I was a kid (smaller kid) but I've got an idea for a duel fuel burner so I'll give it another go ... I'm expecting it to be very slow though 😉

How does a caldera type stove with solid fuel compare to the meths stove?

Thinking about stoves, which one would you go for?
A. http://www.gooutdoors.co.uk/blaze-titanium-stove-p158215
B. http://www.gooutdoors.co.uk/msr-pocket-rocket-camping-stove-p118336

Also what size gas do you think would be best, I guess the small one but how long would that one last for??

Thinking about stoves, which one would you go for?

I've got one of these. Brilliant, does the job and got it for a tenner at T K Maxx.

[url] http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Gelert+Blaze+PZ+Micro+Folding+Gas+Stove+&hl=en&tbs=shop%3A1&aq=f [/url]

Small canisters are easy to hide in your Mytimug thingy but they're less economical and you end up either running out of gas or collecting a load of 3/4 empty cartridges. Go to a hardware store and get a bag of the ones on the right in photo below. 175ml and almost half the price of the 100ml one on the left....

[img] [/img]

Post # 500 🙂

When those stoves were first released (under a different, high end name) they were £60 😉

Only issue I've ever had was the threads been a little tight when used with certain gas canisters ... but if someone was going to get a dodgy one it'd be me!

Congrats on #500

Cheers for the tip, I'll pop to the hardware shop and check these out

my gosh we have been busy bees tonight 😀

I saw the blaze in Go outdoors and looks really good but there's this one at half the price too

http://www.gooutdoors.co.uk/intensity-gas-stove-p158213

not ti but really small and comes with a orange packing box.

Re: Burners.

For combustion to occur three things are needed, a fuel, oxygen and heat.

Combustion happens outside of the unit, where oxygen is present.

Taking a Trangia burner as a start.

The Trangia unit has what is essentially a double walled construction, with a well of fuel in the centre of the cylinder. The liquid fuel is free to flow by gravity into, and by capillarity up the void between the double walls. This void is packed IIRC with rockwool or similar, to act as a wick. The rim at the top of the double wall is perforated with a series of holes which act as jets. It is in the vicinity of these that the fuel burns.

Trangia recommend that the burner unit is not filled to the brim. The well of fuel is lit and this flame begins to heat the pan above it. More importantly, it heats the metal of the unit and makes the fuel inside the double wall to vaporise. This causes a huge increase in volume as the fuel boils, so the gas vents via the perforations. There is usually (until the burner has run out of liquid fuel) sufficient liquid in the burner to form a sufficient seal to prevent the vaporised meths from escaping downwards into the fuel well. As the vaporised fuel leaves the vents (so angled as to provide a broad heating area) it comes into contact with oxygen and is then able to ignite. It does not all ignite instantly so it is necessary to leave a space between the vent and the pan surface to allow sufficient oxygen to combine with the fuel. I believe that there is a design flaw with the Trangia unit in this respect- they often soot up the pans, indicating that incomplete combustion has occurred and carbon is deposited on the pan. I think that finer bore vents might help here, with the trade off of more frequent cleaning.

Associated with all of this is the fuel used. I’ve met people who ‘cut’ their meths with 40- 50% water to avoid smutting up. Likewise I have had almost soot free pans in Iceland burning the ‘brenstoff’ fuel available there. And it was amazingly cheap too; way cheaper than meths is in the UK.

Moving on to the Pop can burners.

They are IMHO often a poor second best to the Trangia unit. No sealing lid, no supporting lip, no ease of refilling. However, they have their place, not least the fun and satisfaction of building them and then using the fruits of one’s labour to cook with ?

Packing with Rockwool/ fibreglass to act as a wick helps. Pre- heating helps too. I think the lack of a central liquid filled (and thus air-tight) well to ensure a pressure differential may detract further from their performance.

Using a Caldera cone.

I’ve never used one but I am keen to try one out- can a jpeg be posted up somewhere? I like the idea behind it, it seems sound to me provided that sufficient oxygen is available easily enough so that incomplete combustion does not happen.

Additionally, I’m a great believer in the ‘low impact’, ‘take nothing but photographs, leave nothing but footprints’ approach. I prefer not to leave any sign of my passing at all. Cookers can and often do scorch the ground. Care needs to be taken not to allow this to happen, including placing hot objects onto the grass. The scorch marks remain for weeks or more showing where the grass has been killed ?

Dont think you can go wrong with the 'Hi gear' stoves they look great. Go outdoor here we come again tomorrow, the wife will be happy....

That Hi Gear stove is a duplicate of the very highly regarded MSR Pocket Rocket, so should be the business.

Exactly what we've been saying all day Ambrose 😉

I have to say though, I can boil half a litre of water on a can stove faster than a Trangia burner. In my mind a can stove is just a cheap Trangia, granted you don't have the wool to act as a wick and there's no sealing lid but otherwise I can't really see much difference.

I was impressed with Steve's petrol stove though it was an impressive display of flame 😯

Maybe we could amuse ourselves on the next trip with a "first to a cuppa" competition using the stove of choice???

I'll bring the jetboil then. 😐

haha good weapon choice.

I fancy one of those for making a brew on my daily travels.

Haven't used my jetboil in nearly a year now. very one trick pony, IMO.

I've heard that from other users but if you just want to make a brew on the move maybe its perfect.

Want to sell yours to a travelling salesman or trade some forceps for lock picking???

Just spent the last 3 hours reading this, once you start following links and getting involed in them..... Great read (not sure my wife thinks so).

the problem is John we go off on tangents for pages and then repeat a few things, winge a bit, post some pics and plan some trips - brilliant 😀

For a very rough guide, my Esbit 14g solid fuel blocks burn for the same amount of time as 15mls of meths. However the meths will bring 500mls of water to a good rolling boil where as the solid fuel wont.

Anthony, what sort of burner are you using with the solid fuel blocks?

anyone used one of these Clikstands? http://www.clikstand.com/specs_cs2.html

I have been using my bush buddy wood burner stove with good results. I gather a fist full of pencil sized twigs towards the end of the days travel and use a few strips of hammaro card to get it started. It even worked well on a wet winter bivy last Friday. It takes a bit longer than gas but will reach a rolling boil quickly , plus you are having a mini fire which is always good! I sometimes carry a Ti meths burner as back up.

After an other enjoyable trip to 'Go outdoors' I made the following purchase... 😀
[IMG] [/IMG]
[IMG] [/IMG]
The stove looks the same the MSR pocket rocket but for £10.99 you cant go wrong.. Also a mate gave me this little chap as well
[IMG] [/IMG]

After an other enjoyable trip to 'Go outdoors' I made the following purchase...

Looks like a bargain.

What'cha rustling up for supper this evening then 😉

I've spent part of the afternoon conducting solid fuel experiments ... I'll put my finds on the WRT blog later. Many lessons learnt 😉

Stove looks nice Bigface!

My cheap, but small solution. I got my pocket rocket clone off Ebay (about £10). The pots are the Gelet Ascent I (again about £10) and use a C100 gas bottle (£5). Saw somebody else with them stacked up this way a couple of years ago and stole the idea, I mean "came up with it myself". I had to modify the stove a bit to get it to fit in the pan. but the couple of times I've used it, its been great.

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

I use the Titanium Esbit stove with the solid fuel. 13g and £7 from BPL I've been very pleased with the results. However I'm taking delivery of a caldera cone in the next few weeks for a slightly more efficient system. I like the idea of the windshield creating a nice stable and sealed burning chamber.

Plus, meths is considerably cheaper to buy. I prefer the genuine Esbit tabs as they are non toxic but they work out at nearly 50p a go.

Has anyone got any experience of the PHD ultra vest? At 150g it looks incredible but it's by no means cheap especially as the 800-fill version usually comes up in their sale at £80ish. I somehow managed to justify buying the beautiful Minim Ultra sleeping bag but I'm struggling to get my head around the gillet to match.

M u s t r e s i s t.

Zero points for the turbo-flame above 😉 OTT heavy for lighting gas stoves. Rob a piezo ignitor from an old ciggy lighter, they weigh about 5g.

Daren't go on the Phd website ... within minutes I'm designing outragous sleeping bags, costing hundreds 😉

The expensive part is the down, so the lighter they get- the cheaper they get. Or so you would think!

John:- I was looking at those pots today, think I may go for the Alkit one?
[IMG] [/IMG]

For anyone interested, you'll find what I believe maybe the worlds lightest stove over on the WRT blog

http://welshridething.blogspot.com/

Luckily, I also think it may be the cheapest 😀

how did those legs not fold under the weight of the pot/water?

Nope, surprisingly sturdy. Might be a different story if you started to angle the legs down towards 45 degrees though.

awesome, I think you win a prize 🙂

That's a little chap.. I think the gelert folding stove still could be handy if you run out of the fuel tabs you could put sticks and bits in it. May give it a go tomorrow and see if it works better...

What the total number confirmed for WRT so far? My 2 are in the post so you should see them monday/Tues?

@Bigface, of the top of my head I think there's 30 odd confirmed which is about right for this time in the proceedings. Always get a mad rush in the last 2 weeks when people get a reminder 😉

oh bugger well reminded! must get mine in the post...

Stu - I've just emailed you re: WRT

Got a pass sorted off "fun police" 😀 cost me 2 weeks in France leaving the Wednesday after though which I will probably need 😯

So time to get into bivving big time 😯

You know you'll have fun.
Stu 'n I will be out next month 11th,12th,13th and i expect to be out at least once in april.
Join us.

I have the PHD minimus down vest, I think it weighs about 150g is ridiculously warm and snug, I used it on a winter bivy trip along with a 3 season go lite quilt and it was great, instant warmth and toasty to sleep in!

I will definately try to join you and Stu soon on a trip I am definately getting the bug for it if you hadn't noticed, I'v even gave up a Mayhem entry as I did it last year.

I can't remember if this has been posted on this mahoosive thread but here's another version of the can stove http://www.outdoorsmagic.com/gear-features/make-your-own-meths-burner/6227.html

good link that ta

Stu aka still s8tannorm has been teasing us with his version of this on his blog.

Stu/Flatfish

any idea what time you'll be heading off on the 11th? - I wouldn't mind tagging along - as long as the pass renegotations go to plan!

James, the Minimus is the 240g 800-fill vest, the ultra is the 150g 900-fill stripped down version with only a half zip.

If you have the Minimus, what sort of size will it squeeze down to?

Cheers Anthony

Right then what am I doing wrong.

i've just made myself a beer can stove with top and side jets.

Lights up Ok, after a short while I can see flames coming out of the jets.
So far so good.

But when I stick my Ti mug on it burns for about 20 to 30 seconds then goes out?

I'm using meths from a DIY store. Is that right?

[url= http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5298/5460925911_e5587d49f9_z.jp g" target="_blank">http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5298/5460925911_e5587d49f9_z.jp g"/> [/img][/url]
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/stu-b/5460925911/ ]2011_0220beercanstove0015[/url] by [url= http://www.flickr.com/people/stu-b/ ]singlespeedstu[/url], on Flickr

[url= http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5252/5461527516_04818a872a_z.jp g" target="_blank">http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5252/5461527516_04818a872a_z.jp g"/> [/img][/url]
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/stu-b/5461527516/ ]2011_0220beercanstove0014[/url] by [url= http://www.flickr.com/people/stu-b/ ]singlespeedstu[/url], on Flickr

Come on nerds I know you'll be able to tell me what I'm doing wrong. 😉

Stu your jet holes area bit on the big side. Think pin hole size rather than knitting needle 😉

Also tend to find with 2 sets of jets the top ones will light up first, side ones should follow along later. Putting your mug straight on top will often put the top jets out and bring the side jets in earlier ... I'm thinking your mug's putting the top jets out but the side jets aren't chiming in due to the size (massive pressure loss through the top jets). Nowt wrong with your fuel, any meths'll do.

Drink more ale and do it again.

Right then I best get drinking. 😆

I'll try with smaller holes and just in the side to start with.

Or do you need the top holes to light the side holes?

If you're planning on sticking your mug straight on top then I wouldn't bother with top jets. I'd put 8 holes in, about 10mm down from the top ... and I'd be using a drawing pin to put 'em in with too 😉

Just tried again with pin holes and now it won't even light from the jets. 😕

Stu ... you have got some feed holes at the base of your inner wall have you? When the things lit, try warming the outside of the stove with a lighter and see if that starts it going.

Sometimes it can take 3-4 minutes for the things to start blooming.

Yep feed holes in bottom.

I'll try again tomorrow.

I found with the double wall design like yours tha. You had to have to let the meths heat up for about 30 sec before the jets started and you could put anything on top. Also let the jet burn for a little while before plonking the pan on top. Make sure you hole are drilled cleanly too your look pretty rough as well as big.

caldera stove to copy £66 to buy 😯

http://www.ultralightoutdoorgear.co.uk/trail_designs_caldera_keg_f_stove_system.html

@TheBrick you are right about allowing the meths to warm up at first I had a good number of frustrations with the "pop" stove going out all the time.

The best design for meths stove is http://www.jureystudio.com/pennystove/ IMHO

thats a good link there 7hz, loads of good info 😉

Gents,

I'll take your outdoorsmagic stove thread and raise you a [url= http://www.bplite.com/ ]stove forum![/url]

Haha awesome work slackmann99 😆

That's the most geektastic thing i've ever seen. 😆

Fantastic.

all this talk of meths stoves got me thinking what does everyone use to transport the meths?

Sigg fuel bottle
Hip flask 😯
35mm camera case (minimalist)
other??

and how much would you carry for a 3 day/2 night trip such as WRT?

For an over-nighter I've bought a airline shampoo bottle from supper drug. 75 - 100 ml ish I think.

Longer than that I use a small squeeze top drinks bottle like this

[img] [/img]

or if I need more or less a full bottle I've also used a small bike water bottle to carry weeks worth (used about 2/3, two meals a day + cups of tea). Mounted under down tube in separate cage.

All of these containers have a nice easy controllable no spill method of pouring which for an idiot like me is important, especially if shaking.

Not saying these are the best methods, but they worked for me, I'm careful where and how I pack my meths.

I use the green version of fruit shoot. 😀