[Closed] Short road bike Stems?

elbow finger tip?

I've got an 80mm stem on at the moment as I've been trying to fine tune the fit whilst on the turbo. Seems more comfortable, didn't think about if it affected power output tbh so I might look into that at some point. Not tried it on the road yet which will be the real test. Has yours affected steering much?

Pretty sure the velominati would be up in arms though!!

If it fits and it's comfy and you can ride a long way and ride as fast as you want, then it's ok.

From a more critical perspective, an 80mm stem suggests that either you aren't very flexible, or that you have a bike that has a top tube that is a bit too long.

Both of these should have been pointed out at your bike fit, but probably weren't, because 90% of bike fits seem to be a money spinner rather than a long term, come back in two weeks/200 miles for a re-fit, followed by some kind of long term follow up...

If everything else is good, where the front hub is relative you your head shouldn't matter. It's only a rule of thumb 🙂

Op - no, not one bit.

And no way does the bike increase your power.

Elbow on the tip of the saddle, tips of fingers should be within 1cm of the bars either way.

Zilog I've only ridden it 3 miles since, it felt faster though. Could have been shiny thing syndrome. The basic issue that poor posture and tight hamstrings plus wrong setup had my weight behind the BB, and knees behind the pedal spindle. So now my hips have cone forward and stem back to give me a better angle (triangular) from wrist to hip rather the arch shape it previously was.

Cynical - posture and actually engaging your glutes can though. Crikey see above. Turns out I have big flexibility issues plus a short torso, long arms but short forearms which were all pointed out to me.

Could have been shiny thing syndrome.

This.

Elbow on the tip of my saddle gets to the centre bolt of my stem/headset.

You can learn to be more flexible, and it's a good idea to try. I have used a 130 stem in the past...

Edited to point out that I am short, fat and have ickle legs so buy frames that a 'bike fit' would suggest are too big.

[img] [/img]

but I can see the front hub in front of the bars.

I wouldn't worry, Brant will be along in a minute telling that's all bollocks anyway.. 😉

I have an 80mm stem on my >x< and it's fine. I'm 5ft 7" with 32" leg and crazy short torso.

I'm also not very flexible. Stem works and I'm happy with it

Went down 10mm on mine, feels much better, less like bending a boat. I can see the hub too but soon forgot about it.

@ Crikey. Indeed. Along with my stats and measurement they are sending me some advice o help the flexibility issues.

Why are people worried about seeing the front hub? Not something I've ever considered.

Elbow on the tip of my saddle gets to the centre bolt of my stem/headset.

1+

Though I have been wondering about trying a shorter stem, I'm using a 105 atm.

Hmm.

With that short a stem on a road bike you will die, FACT

Ultimately it doesn't matter. The bike that fits you the best is the bike you ride the most and vice versa.

If you want to ride a race bike, and race on it, then decide how you are going to fit yourself to it and crack on. I spent years tinkering with bike fit, trying different things, trying different stems, trying different amounts of seat setback, trying small frames with big stems, big frames with small stems, and am now riding frames that I fit to rather than buying frames that are supposed to fit to me.

If you are racing, then get yourself on a bike you can race on and get used to it. Then refine it using the knowledge you develop.

It's not meant to be that comfy, it's meant to be fast, and riding a bike isn't what humans were evolved to do so a certain amount of discomfort and adaptation is needed.

Try my oft derided method; choose a pro cyclist who is the same size as you and look in detail at their setup, then try to get as close as you can...

For someone your size, 80mm is too short. The fact that you can see the hub means the weight balance is shiftied backwards. No big issue you might think - and so did I until i rode a race with an 80mm stem on my medium TCR. Into a fast corner, the twitchiness set up a speed wobble and i edged a rider off the track. Be careful.

I'm now riding a 100mm stem and fit is perfect. The shortest i have for road is 90 on a bike that is really a bit too big.

No big issue you might think - and so did I until i rode a race with an 80mm stem on my medium TCR. Into a fast corner, the twitchiness set up a speed wobble and i edged a rider off the track. Be careful.

Rubbish!

I have an 80mm stem on my Mekk road bike - however the bike is a 44cm and i am 5'2" so its all relative! I can just see the hub when on the hoods but not when on the drops. Whatever, i tried a 90mm = too long. Tried a 70mm = too short & twitchy. 80mm = just right.

TiRed - Member The fact that you can see the hub means the weight balance is shiftied backwards.

Seeing as my saddle has come forward, and the 'puter software now shows my weight Central over the BB, it actually shows my weight has come forwards and the angle from wrist to shoulder to hip is more acute eg not over reaching.

Stem should be 20% of the TT length, looks the best.

If the bike feels better/more comfortable don't worry about it however I'd make a more definite opinion when you have completed a longer ride say 25miles.

That should give you chance to see if its pushed your weight to far back putting more weight on your sit bones hence making your bum sore.

Also if your running a power meter and over the distance above your averaging more power then chances are its doing something right.

The elbow/fingertip thing is only a rough idea not a exact science.

To sum up if it feels right , it probably is.

On a side note #Mark Cavendish has switched to smaller frame than he has previously ridden as he prefers the feel of it.

Kryton57 - Member
TiRed - Member The fact that you can see the hub means the weight balance is shiftied backwards.
Seeing as my saddle has come forward, and the 'puter software now shows my weight Central over the BB, it actually shows my weight has come forwards and the angle from wrist to shoulder to hip is more acute eg not over reaching.

Jeez you/people really bother this much?? Are you an Olympic track cyclist? You'll be trying for a wind tunnel session next

Yep, made me chuckle too Houns. Some classic STW posts on here.

All good entertainment though.

Anyway OP, if you're comfortable and not edging off other elite athletes in high speed races, go with what you've got.

My bike fit last year was the same, from a 100mm +6 to a 80mm +16 but also with the seat post raised quite an amount and the saddle pushed back. Putting me further back on the bike and more upright, meaning I use the gluts more now, I can't say I feel much faster or comfortable but I've stopped cramping in my calves on 50+ milers. If I was to try a tt I would probably switch back to my old position I think it was better for power over shorter distances.

Why nonsense? A shorter stem will require less force for the same torque to move the handlebars. Hence steering sensitivitt increases. Weight on the front wheel will also affect stability ans a shorter stem, all things being equal, means that the bike will handle quicker. Not many DH bikes ride a 100mm stem. For a reason.

As to Kryton, if you had to move your saddle forward as well, I think your frame is too big. Saddle location should be independent of handlebar distance, regardless of the saddle to elbvow to arse to finger rules of thumb. Set the saddle position first, adjust handlebar reach and drop to taste. Stem too long or too short means the bike is too small or too big.

Why nonsense? A shorter stem will require less force for the same torque to move the handlebars. Hence steering sensitivitt increases. Weight on the front wheel will also affect stability ans a shorter stem, all things being equal, means that the bike will handle quicker. Not many DH bikes ride a 100mm stem. For a reason.

I didn't deny that it can cause a bit of twitchiness at extreme differences, but you didn't push a rider off the road in a 4th cat race because your stem was 10mm too short 🙄

what he said ^^

Not many DH bikes ride a 100mm stem. For a reason.

Really? Don't think anyone on here realised that....

As to Kryton, if you had to move your saddle forward as well, I think your frame is too big. Saddle location should be independent of handlebar distance, regardless of the saddle to elbvow to arse to finger rules of thumb. Set the saddle position first, adjust handlebar reach and drop to taste. Stem too long or too short means the bike is too small or too big.

I like the way you all talk as though a professional nationally renown bike fit organisation doesn't know what it was doing.

The saddle was moved [i]first[/i] to get me balanced over the BB and my knees in line with the pedal spindle, with height adjusted within the shorter side of the typical parameters - yet within the 140+ degree arc - to compensate for my hamstring issues.

THEN the front was brought toward me and slightly up by shortening the Stem to make me more upright with my back straight and not overly stretched over the bars. FWIW, I also used to cramp in my left hamstring on long rides, and get a frozen neck/shoulder on rides over 90mins.

Also FWIW my "hub behind the bars" comment was from a perspective of being on the hoods.

Finally, I'm 5'11 & 3/4 using a 57. The other size options for my [i]race geo[/i] bike are 55 or 60, both of which would be massive outside my size range. I'm measured to have a short torso long arms and shorter forearms than usual, which even if you do a general google about that, typical indicates short Stem size than usual. For example:

[i]A person with very long legs for their height will also have long arms but will have a short body and small feet relative to their height. Small feet mean short forearm and a shorter stem which will be right for their short body. Because this rider has long legs his saddle will be set high making a greater distance from the seat to the bars*; this will accommodate his long arms.[/i]

As to Kryton, if you had to move your saddle forward as well, I think your frame is too big. Saddle location should be independent of handlebar distance, regardless of the saddle to elbvow to arse to finger rules of thumb. Set the saddle position first, adjust handlebar reach and drop to taste. Stem too long or too short means the bike is too small or too big.

What is too long or too short though? As said, Cav has just switched to a smaller frame (in fact the very smallest Spesh make), plenty of pros are running 130mm stems, and they're faster than you, for longer. I imagine you'd tell them they're doing it wrong though?

Who me?

From a more critical perspective, an 80mm stem suggests that either you aren't very flexible, or that you have a bike that has a top tube that is a bit too long.

Nonsense!! I have a short torso / arms and long legs so need the short stem. No issues with being unflexible - run a -17 stem and my drop is 8cm, and I'd like more drop but a -25stem looks, well, like my bars are falling off! Both the TT on my winter and race bike are the same length but one has a 80 and the other a 90 but my contact points are exactly the same, the geometry and headcap is different.

And no way does the bike increase your power.

A proper bike fit will though by being set up to your flexibility etc etc and recruiting all the muscles needed. When I had mine done there was a massive difference to how strong I felt.

OP, switching to the 80mm stem (previously i had 90) made the bike initially so twitchy (especially now my new race bike is lighter), but I got used to it. However, i don't really like it for very technical crit courses tbh, but then i don't really like racing crits either 🙂

Who me?

Nah, TiRed.

90mm for me is perfect on the tops, looking for a shorter reach bar to bring the hoods in a little more.

Thank god for dirtygirl.

Noted - I'll try the short Stem but still have the 100 to go back on if I don't like it/want to be more agressive.

My bike does have a longer-than-standard-race-bike wheelbase as its a long distance machine - I too although trying Crits this year am more favoured toward distance.

I'll see how it fares.

I like the way you all talk as though a professional nationally renown bike fit organisation doesn't know what it was doing.

The saddle was moved first to get me balanced over the BB and my knees in line with the pedal spindle,

I hope they moved your saddle only to get you balanced and it was actually nothing to do with knee over the spindle, something that is about as important and coincidental as measuring your saddle-bar reach with your elbow-fingertips.

jameso yes - there was a fore/aft saddle/BB measurement first, with me then on the bike being filmed and measured after each change.

I'm 5'11 & 3/4 using a 57.

Bingo, you are having to use to short a stem because your frame is too big.

Flog your frame and get a 56" with a 100-120mm stem, and you'll be much happier.

Well, last time I was on here talking about road bike frames I was told to aim for 58.

Besides, despite being a 57 my TT is 56cm. And guess what, a 'dale supersix 56 has a 56cm TT, as does a Trek Madone.

So by buying "any" 56 won't help me vis a vis your advice is invalid.

Flog your frame and get a 56" with a 100-120mm stem, and you'll be much happier.

56" eh? Suspect that will be too big!

What a daft and conflicting piece of advice - you're suggesting he buy a frame with a shorter seat tube, and fit a longer stem. What if the 56 he swaps to has a longer TT?

A 55cm Pinarello frame has an ETT of 57cm. An H2 fit Trek Madone 56cm has an ETT of 55.7cm. A M/L Giant Defy has a 58cm TT.

You can't possibly judge based on a height and a quoted frame size whether the bike is right or not.

Noted - I'll try the short Stem but still have the 100 to go back on if I don't like it/want to be more agressive.

I doubt stem length would make a difference to being more aggressive (confident more likely) being able to ride on the drops 100% of a race would be better (if you can't already - and obviously i don't mean for long climbs)

If you find there's not enough weight on the front, you could try a negative rise stem or dropping your stem a bit? My -17 is slammed too which helps a lot although i'd check with your fitter first before making changes.

How much was the bike fit Kryton?

I had a 70mm on mine. Don't want to claim to be a proper roadie or anything, but I didn't die.

If you're about to tell me I've wasted my money, I can't be bothered to enter into the argument, unless you can tell me how its relevant to the conversation. It was by cyclefit, and I didn't pay full RRP.

I like the way you all talk as though a professional nationally renown bike fit organisation doesn't know what it was doing.

If they're so awesomez why you questioning it with these bunch of cockends 😛

dirtygirlonabike - Member
Noted - I'll try the short Stem but still have the 100 to go back on if I don't like it/want to be more agressive.
I doubt stem length would make a difference to being more aggressive (confident more likely) being able to ride on the drops 100% of a race would be better (if you can't already - and obviously i don't mean for long climbs)

If you find there's not enough weight on the front, you could try a negative rise stem or dropping your stem a bit? My -17 is slammed too which helps a lot although i'd check with your fitter first before making changes.

Well the change in balance should have put me more over the front, and I previously could ride the drops for an hour but would rise to the tops for a rest on climbs. I've not ridden it in 80mm guise long enough to tell yet.

monkeyfudger - Member

If they're so awesomez why you questioning it with these bunch of cockends

Good questions. I just wasn't sure about "seeing the front hub" and it played on my mind so...

Apologies for confusion I only deal in TT lengths when buying road bikes, the 'actual' frame size isn't that important. Get the TT length that fits, then work everything back from there.

I still think for a person of that height that a sub 100mm stem indicates the wrong size bike. A road bike shouldn't be twitchy, when you are tired and descending at 40mph+ in a bunch stability is important.

Kryton57 - Member
If you're about to tell me I've wasted my money, I can't be bothered to enter into the argument, unless you can tell me how its relevant to the conversation. It was by cyclefit, and I didn't pay full RRP.

If you believe it works for you, then you've not wasted your money. I'm just curious about the price.

While these services can be helpful, I've never felt the need, and would prefer a common sense approach where a rider is encouraged to try things out and thereby empowered, rather than rely on or pay for "look at all the thought/science/numbers we've put into this, it must work!" services. I got a free bike fit a while ago, it came out pretty much spot on to my current set-up.

FWIW I don't believe in 'seeing the front hub', 'knee over pedal' etc, but if folk need reassurance, then I guess they are as good starting points as any.

The classics i hear alot are - ill get a bike fit on one bike and ill transfer the measurements over to my others.

This almost never works.

Let's have a pic of you sitting on the bike then Kryton, at least give the armchair experts something to go with.

Fwiw it was a £99 special. Special bike jig, computers, advice plus my own bike setup done. 3 and a bit hours.

All this talk of top tube lengths between different bike sizes and yet no-one has mentioned seat angle. Genius 😀

Jeez you/people really bother this much?? Are you an Olympic track cyclist?

The front hub thing is a guide, don't get hung up on it. There is also such a variance in flats-to-hood reach on bars that stem is only a piece of the puzzle. I find I spend a lot more time in the drops now I've got quite compact bars with close hoods and a shallow bend.

Saddle relative to frame is independent of eyes, bar and stem as it's about aligning the lower body. Work from the feet up. Apparently my femur length is proportionally long so I tend to need more layback than stock. Medium frames with this tweak fit me better than large stock bikes without, I'm about 5'10" so span both sizes.

As mentioned, frame size is more of a relative thing to the model rather than the olden measure of having a size for your height given compact geo, variance in measuring, brand size bias (Cannondale being big for their size) etc etc.

Get some cheap parts and swap 'em about, measure your performance and compare your results.

Herman Shake - Member
Get some cheap parts and swap 'em about, measure your performance and compare your results.

I'd agree with the experimental approach, an individual is extremely unlikely to be able to find meaningful differences to measure (i.e. isolate other factors).

Flog your frame and get a 56" with a 100-120mm stem, and you'll be much happier.

Is the right answer. You had a bike fit to a bike that is too big. At your height, you'd have never heard me go for a 58 in anything. Did the fit mention that your bike is too big? Start with the basics and fir from there. I've seen some dreadful professional fits, including a poor lady who's elbows were locked when on the hoods to the extent she had trouble performing basic maneuvers.

No. Did you read my post where I said despite being a 57 it measures the same as a 56 supersix, Madone and a few others actually?

No. Did you read my post where I said despite being a 57 it measures the same as a 56 supersix, Madone and a few others actually?

Sure about that? Seat angle and top tube lengths all the same? Or top tubes the same length but seat angles different, so in reality completely different sizes?

TiRed - Member

Flog your frame and get a 56" with a 100-120mm stem, and you'll be much happier.

56" is fairly big...

Sure about that? Seat angle and top tube lengths all the same? Or top tubes the same length but seat angles different, so in reality completely different sizes?

Well, knock yourselves out over this geo for the 57:

http://www.competitivecyclist.com/bianchi-sempre-pro-frame?ti=U2VhcmNoIFJlc3VsdHM6YmlhbmNoaToxOjQ6YmlhbmNoaQ

Nice bike. I'd have suggested the 55 cm ETT frame and a 110-120mm stem if you are of average proportions. You are only 1cm taller than me and that geometry is not far from the Giant Defy (0.5cm longer ETT, 0.5 degree steeper seat tube so saddle will be 0.5cm further back).

And just for balance, you are all welcome to criticise my position: Medium Giant TCR 55cm top tube, 100mm stem (not 80 or 120; I tried them both), I am 179 cm with absolutely average proportions for a male. Saddle to top of bar drop is 8cm and I am not the most flexible person in the world 😉 . But I did 90 minutes, mainly on the drops during last nights chain gang - still got dropped though 😆

[url= http://britishcyclesport.com/2013/events/imperial-winter-series-1-gallery/attachment/40-4/ ]Side, hoods.[/url]

[url= http://aephotos.co.uk/imp13r7-cat4/h3bb05bd3#h3bb05bd3 ]Front, drops.[/url]

Assume you meant this one as your first pic? The one you've linked to doesn't appear to be you...

[img] ?fit=630%2C800[/img]

Actually I don't think you look like the model of a perfect bike fit, you look like you're out for a bit of a Sunday pootle (nowt wrong with that mind) - very upright, bike looks quite short, elbows straight. That and compression socks are just no. Your helmet's too far back too because of your cap.

Agreed. He needs a bigger frame with a shorter stem.....

Flog your frame and get a 56" with a 100-120mm stem, and you'll be much happier.

I'm the same height as the op and ride a large/58 and always change the stem to a 120mm one. We're all different even if our height is the same. If the op is happy and comfy that's all that matters.
p.s
No way could I ride a 80mm stem, my knees would hit the bars all the time, must have very different leg bone lengths to the op.

question for dgoab:

(because I don't understand - no axe to grind)

I have a short torso / arms and long legs so need the short stem. No issues with being unflexible - run a -17 stem and my drop is 8cm, and I'd like more drop but a -25stem looks, well, like my bars are falling off!

A few things

The myth of kops
http://sheldonbrown.com/kops.html

Seat angle is not really critical unless you're basing a bike on top tube alone. What matters is position of saddle relative to BB and position of bars relative to those. Weight distribution on the bike may be important if you go a long way outside of the normal parameters (eg saddle a long way back, very short stem or saddle very forwards with a long stem).

In addition, I suspect that the ideal position that we should aspire to (which will replicate that of the pros most likey) is only ideal if we're trying to go as fast as possible and have the flexibility and body proportions to match. Look at the pro peloton and you'll see most rider adhere fairly well to the long and low stereotype but there are a good few who have positions that differ quite significantly (eg shorter, higher front end) because it suits them better.

Obviously many more recreational riders don't want to admit that they're too fat/inflexible to ride a proper pro position so fall back on their proportions being the reason for the sunday tourer position but equally it is perfectly valid for some others.

Oh and for the long stemmers 🙂

http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/is-your-frame-too-small-andre-kasheskin-has-the-answer

[img] [/img]
(computers photoshopped in)

drug addled rider rides (IIRC) 17cm stem! I thought my 14cm one was long...

EDIT - better pic and details:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/photos/race-tech-tour-down-under-kicks-off-the-pro-equipment-season-for-2013/249495
[img] [/img]

Seat angle is not really critical unless you're basing a bike on top tube alone. What matters is position of saddle relative to BB and position of bars relative to those.

Absolutely. Set the saddle height and setback first and then get the contact points in the right place. Unfortunately (as seen perfectly above) TT length is often seen as the thing that matters most, and without SA it's largely meaningless.

True but to be fair, most bikes are pretty close on ST angle but it's worth checking.

Race face innit 😉 Look at the guy behind suffer! And it's a telephoto lens of course so compresses perspective.

For the TCR, Medium was always the right size. For the Defy, I agonized over size (as it has an ISP to cut) and still went Medium. All of my road bikes and track bike have the same basic pedals to saddle to bars triangle dimensions, but no two bikes have the same geometry or stem, lengths. Once you know these dimension for you, choosing and fitting a new bike is pretty simple. Finding those dimensions however...

pretty close on ST angle

Half a degree for a 74cm BB-to-saddle is 74*2x3.14x*(0.5/360) = 0.65cm. SO thats almost 1.5cm on the saddle rails for every degree change in angle. Same for head tube angle. As already mentined, set your saddle first and don't go on location on the rails of a different bike.

I ride a medium tcr with 80mm stem.. Due to my long legs short torso ... I have raced on tcr for couple of seasons and I haven't died or felt anything remotely twitchy ..

I don't really agree with the idea of all bikes having the same bar/seat/BB positions TiRed - unless they're all for the same purpose.

For example, a track bike has a single handle grip position and you are typically riding faster than on the road. You're also not going to be climbing any hills (other than the banking 🙂 ). In addition, you're not usually going to ride for anywhere near as long as on the road. As such, a more aerodynamic position may be better even if it is a bit less comfortable or powerful.

And then transferring to mtbs - again different position (bars usually higher, shorter) so saddle/BB height may well need to be different given the interplay of muscles around your core and your legs.

Basically my point is that people love the idea that there is a simple formula (KOPs, 92%, bar&hub, elbow+finger, etc) that's right but there isn't and you can't even really apply a good position across bikes. You need to tune to suit. And work on yourself - eg flexibility. That's the bit people really forget about and it's not one that you can spend your way to.

Once you know these dimension for you, choosing and fitting a new bike is pretty simple.

Or if it doesn't really matter to you. I go by feel. I know that I can't really recreate the position from the Madone on the Allez. After a long time on one the other feels a little strange for 2 minutes, then I get used to it.

Personally I'd not bother with a professional bike fit (or a custom frame), but I do understand why people do.

Not sure why some folk things their position is right and others is wrong though.

Mattered to me. Saddle height alone, without fore and aft adjustment for frame geometry can make a big difference. Same height and too far to the rear can over extend the ITB and lead to injury. As I found out the hard way. All my saddles are now located in the same position relative to BB, including the MTB (74cm height, -5cm tip to BB). Bars on the MTB are a little higher and closer. Bars on the track bike are a little lower due to curve - provided I can wrestle the bike of Teen1 and swap stems in time!

I've got stem envy.

Would all of you who fit everything within average bounds please just give it a frigging rest. If you can't see this guy on a bike, you can't judge, you also have no idea of his exact proportions. Furthermore, whilst his bike might not be the ideal size, it might be the nearest he'll get to a reasonable fit with an OTP frame - are you going to criticise the fitters now for not telling him he needs to spend ££££ on a custom frame?!

I'm one of those people that had a bike fit years ago (free with a frame BTW, tightwads/skeptics of STW rejoice!), and actually falls in the 10-15% of the population who fall outside 'the norm' in terms of proportions. Please just save all the ridiculous old school bike-shop style 'glance up and down' sizing maxims for people you can [s]spout your opionons on[/s] expertly advise IN PERSON.

Cheers,

Graham (5'10", riding a 59st/55tt custom frame and a 58cm Cervelo.... with a 100mm stem - ****ing heresy!)