[Closed] shimano xt m8120 Vs Hope E4 - Brake shootout

If you want instant bite and all of the power, all of the time, get the XT's.

If you want reliability, modulation with power, and the ability to fully rebuild them and not have to buy a full lever/caliper, get the Hopes.

IMO you either like the shimano feel or you like the hope feel. If you like both, well that's just a little wierd... 😁

Another factor, swapping between hope and shimano would have me locking up the brakes on one ride then wondering what happened to the brakes on the next. I'd keep the same brakes over multiple bikes.

Personally id go for the Hopes (better the devil you now)

Ive had lots of Hopes, Shimnano XT, Deore, Zee etc.. and various Sram guide and Code variations (R, RS,RSC) all have their own issues

At least with the Hopes if you like the characteristics of the brake then if they go wrong they can be fixed rather quickly by Hope rather than being thrown in the bin

Currently running Hope e4 x3, X2 x1, V4 x2, no plans to go back to Shimano or Sram on the MTB's

If someone offered me Hope brakes for the price of XT, I'd be too busy biting their hand off to be fannying about on a forum!

Hope, all day every day over the Shimano.

If you're concerned about power, set up a rotor size and make sure they're set up properly.

Shimano, all day every over the Hope

Can you see the issue here?

I've had both - If you value reliability and rebuildability over power then get the hopes, if you value power then get the XT's.

I'd go XT - out of those two.

But in reality I'd go Sram code RSC over both of those.

I currently have shimano XT, Sram code rsc and magura Mt5. the Sram code rsc are hands down the best of those .

Leftfield option - Formula Cura 4. 125 Euro an end, Hope modulation with bags more power, really impressed with them so far. Or Cura 2, 90 an end, more immediate bite, but still very good.

Given that e4's are currently £150 an end without rotors, just how cheap are you being offered them?

It'd be E4 for me, but then I have V4's on my current bike dns my next build will have E4's.

Well as I said I've just been offered the Hope's and black rotors for the same price as the XT's...its a full build so just no up charge.

And to those ladies recommending Codes and Curas...appreciate it, but it's a straight shoot out between these 2 right now.

So what's the current score..

Hope's -3

XT's - 2

hope or better still code rsc. id always try and avoid shimano brakes, unless you like a semi automatic bite point.

Shimano brakes are the only hydraulic brakes I've ever had that have worked, I've had Mini's Mono M4 Juicy'c and since then Shimano, and cheap ones at that, that have just worked, worked and worked.

I still don't like them as much as Paul Klampers though!

Shimano all the way would be my choice last two bikes purchased over the last couple of months had code RSCs swapped out to Saints before riding and the one delivered today will have the Code Rs swapped out for some Saints.
Every set of Hopes I have owned or used over the last 20 years have left me disappointed.

The answer was in the first reply from Ta11paul.

But, I'll throw my hat into the ongoing trollfest that is Shimano Vs. Hope and say get some E4s or V4s.

So current score on the doors is?...

Hopes' - 5

XT's - 4

I get the thing about having consistency across bikes, part of me wants to try XT's(fully realising that it may result in having to get rid of the Hopes on my other bike.), ..part says stick with what you know...still can't make up mind. First world problems and all that, i know.

Shimano

Hope

From what you've said, you feel the E4's lack some power, and you liked the XT's - IMO Hopes are a love/hate thing, if you love the Hope modulation you appreciate the power is there but they need a bit more of a pull to get to it.

So (and I'm a 100% Hope fan), it sounds like you might actually prefer the instant power of the XT's, I'd say give them a go.

If you do have to sell the Hope's (or XT's if you realise the error of your ways 😉 ) , I'm fairly sure you wouldn't have issues selling them at the moment.

Too much straight-minded thinking there, I know. To counteract it:

TRP!! 😀

Hope E4s, there's plenty of power there

Shimano wandering bite point (admittedly on deores) has only happened to me once but freaked me out, even if there's more power at the start

I've had Hope E4's and currently have XT's and Code RSC's. XT are my preference. Never had a wandering bite point.

Would be the Hopes for me as well. They have never let me down and do easy to look after.

Have shimano on 3 bikes, i stopped using Hope a few years back, too expensive and always liable to squeal in the wet, so went away from them. Not sure if the E4 has the same issues, but i don't tend to use brakes that have synthetic oil, just a personal thing.

Never really had an issue with the shimano, bar crash damage, but yes they have a different feel, that's what made me go from 1 to 3 sets on my bikes, didn't like the SRAM feel, but again, that's just something you get used too, never had that issue with the hopes i had (X2s were the last).

It really does come down to what you're after, if it's the same price you could get the E4s without worry, if they don't work put up a trade and you'll get some money back, even i would do that, so as a shimano lover i say go Hope, you're at minimum getting a free trial!

Would be the Hopes for me as well. They have never let me down and do easy to look after.

Yep, once set up correctly mine have only needed the pistons lubing (as per their video) after 500 miles.

Would be Hopes for me. I did like the pre-Deore 4 pots that I had on my Intense, plenty power too.

I used to have some Hope E4 on my Hightower (and other bikes since) and they were my favourite brakes. When set up properly, They didn't struggle stopping all 16 stone of me.

When I can afford/justify it, I would but Hopes next time again.

I've had plenty of Shimano between me and the missus over the years and only ever had the wandering bite point on an older set of XT. I just don't like the disposable nature of them...

Hang on, there is just too much level headed and rational discussion here for STW. It's freaking me out.

Hopes - 9

XT - 6

Just go for whatever retails for the most £'s then sell them if you don't like them.

Hope e4.

I have hope e4, xtm785 and xt m8000. All bikes with 200mm r otors front and 180 rear.

I’m thinking about replacing the xt with e4. The e4 need less bleeding, the bleeding is easier and they are fine to live with.

I’m adapted to the power and modulation of them. None have failed to stop me, none have sent me over the bars.

The xt800 have given me squeeky bum when the bite point has randomly changed and left me swearing when they have refused to bleed well. These are now on a very seldomly used bike.

The xt m785 left me swearing when they have refused to bleed well. It took 4 goes last week.

The hopes have needed bleeding once in 2 years. They bled first time.

Hope for me as well, Shimano's just feel a bit wooden and I've had the wandering bite point.

But like @choppersquad say's, go with the Hope's and if you don't like them you'll get a good chunk of cash that may well cover a set of Shimano's.

Get the Hopes, they always sell for good money secondhand if you don't like them. Shimanos are always on offer somewhere so you could even end up in profit if you switch to them!

For no upcharge, Hope. I've got current gen SLX and Deore on 2 bikes and they're totally fine; I'd buy them again tomorrow if I had to. The 3yr old set of E4s on my other bike are still my favourites though. They just work, have needed no love apart from 1 bleed, and I like that every part is replaceable.

XT for me.

Had some experiments with brakes but always returned to XT.

I was really determined to like Hopes but my arms pump said big massive NOOOO, even with 203 rotor up front.

Sold my E4 not that long ago, 8120s already waiting for new build...

Cheers!
I.

Maybe I havent tried the latest Shimanos but my Hope V4s on my Aeris feel like they will stop a train all day long. When not set up right (pad alignment and setting) Hope brakes are completely underwhelming.

I have had one hope failure on a ride. They were second hand and probably a bit unloved as it was a bike I lend to friends and the front brake jammed on towards the end of a ride. My friend was busy chickening out of a steep section so I suspect sat there with the front brake lever clamped on for about 10 minutes (I kid you not, I have video) and when I went up there to show her on the bike I found the front wheel wouldnt turn.

Personally I love the lever shape and find them very comfortable to use. I do admit the bleeding and pad setting is a PITA though. They are not brakes you can just slap on straight from the packet in the carpark and go for a ride.

Part of me doesnt want to try new Shimanos in case I like them but I also dont want to go back to brakes that are serviceable. I just wish you could do fluid changes and bleeding without having to take off and refit those damp covers and diaphragms. I have been tempted to fit a bleed nipple to the MC of my spare set directly into the cavity below the diaphragm.

I get the thing about having consistency across bikes, part of me wants to try XT’s(fully realising that it may result in having to get rid of the Hopes on my other bike.), ..part says stick with what you know…still can’t make up mind. First world problems and all that, i know.

I'll add to that with pads, bleed kits etc.
Choose one or the other.... keep spares in the car/shed
Though honestly I'd do 7120's instead of 8120's ...

Servicability...??? NEW SLX/XT lever £30-£35... new caliper £15 to £35 (if you take away the cost of pads).. AS 2 POT IS 30ish minus pads and 4 pot is £50 minus pads...
On the other hand if you need to go riding and you have Hope on the other bike you can just nick lever or caliper, order parts and replace when it arrives.

Wandering bite points are vastly overstated IMHO... sure if you uplift you might need to pump it a bit but ?? But if you like the hope feel and are happy with the power and already have spare pads, bleed kit etc. why not???

If I was building a burly bike I'd go for Cura 4s or Saints.

HTH

Maybe I havent tried the latest Shimanos

They feel just like the Saint/Zee... if you did/didn't like them you will find them very very similar... probably not the smartest idea to real world test blindfolded but you'd be lucky to guess which was which.

Not tried the Xt 4 pots I tried 4 sets of Xt m8000 warranty replaced on both pairs, since then had e4s, can’t see me going back and will have a pair of 4 pots to sell on off the new bike coming later this year.
E4s can be had for £135 an end excl, rotors, mount/adaptors and shifter mounts adaptors

I have a few pairs of E4's running 200mm front n rear, never felt the need for more power, I've paid as little as £115 for them, currently testing out gorilla brakes ceramic pads, good results so far.

I have e4 with tech 3 levers on the hb130 and I would swap in an instant back to shimano if i could....(orange and as new if anyone has mint xt 4 pots they would swap?)

Loads of free stroke, lack power even 203/180. Arm pump as you have to pull them so hard if riding steep stuff, squeel even though they are set up perfectly straight and so underwhelming. Ran zees for years on the Nomad and miss them like crazy. Tried everything, new pads, set up, check bleed, did the squeeze of lever with wheel out to reduce free stroke. I dont know why people rave about these brakes.

They look amazing and fine if riding mellow stuff but as soon as you get super steep they are mince.

The older xt m8000 single pot on my shan perform better.

Only tried one set of Shimano brakes (Deore) wasn't overly keen on the on/off feel then they both failed at the same time.

Love my Hope E4 brakes, I don't find them underpowered and never had a squeal from them either.

Another vote for Hopes.

Well I've lost count now, but still seems like Hope are firmly in the lead..will it go to extra time & penalties?

So maybe for context they will be going on a fairly burly 150mm/160mm 29er with coil front and rear(a Highlander), and my only experience of other brakes before my Hope e4's & V4's were Avids & SRAM Guides..

I got Shimano M8120. Greats brakes. However I just paid £25+ for a set of pads. Extortion!!! I’m sure Hope are cheaper.

Just to give a little update to some of the things said on here about Hope brakes

Hope genuine pads are around £16 a set, other brands are cheaper, you don't need a proper bleed kit, just any old syringe, bit of pipe, 7mm spanner and a small torx bit (for the top cap) B

Bleeding process is the same as doing car brakes, dot 4 fluid is easy to get hold of, it wont kill you just mop up any spillages with a cloth and wash off the area with water, if left for a while it can damage paint

When you buy new they come with spare olive and barbs in case you need to shorten or internally route the hose

MY V4's came with organic and sintered pads in the box

My Hope V4's have no problem stopping me (103kg) and my e-mtb (23kg) in a hurry

Ultimately it comes down to what brake you prefer the feel of as once set up that is all that really matters

Id try the Hopes out and if you don't like em then swap them for some XT's or sell them on, you got nothing to lose

I've a set of e4 front, x2 rear on one bike and slx on the other. I can't wait to be rid of the shimano's. Love their gearing, not so much the brake. I've had 3 replacement calipers on this set and they wander all over the place if you invert the bike. I don't mind the initial bite but prefer the more gradual hope feel.

Oh lots of mistaking initial bite/grab for power. It's not the same thing.

Personally I have demoted my E4s from my best bike and stuck on some Shimano 8120 levers and Magura MT5 callipers. I like the bite and that the bucket loads of power is a matter of how far I move my finger not how hard I can pull.

But for the OP I cant really argue with

Id try the Hopes out and if you don’t like em then swap them for some XT’s or sell them on, you got nothing to lose

Shimano saints on all bikes with appropriate rotor size for style of riding and rider / bike weight. I don’t think you can ever be overbraked - you can just ride faster and have smaller braking points. Got three sets, all have been fit & forget apart from an annual bleed. Oldest set is now 6 or 7 years old with no issues. Currently £250 a set from thdd Ed German sites, loads of power and plenty of modulation with 180+ rotors

@dumbot. Just seen its a Highlander you are getting. Stick the xt 4 pots on it for sure. Hope wont cope...ask Iain who will be building up the bike what he would put on his...

@raouligan

I still don’t like them as much as Paul Klampers though!

Ah, someone else who has seen the light 😉

But back to the case in hand....Hopes all the way.

I’d take the Hopes and if they aren’t man enough sell them on as lightly used for decent money and buy Sram Code RSC’s.

I was uplifting on the weekend just gone and my mates SLX brakes randomly pull to the bar sometimes. He’s always bleeding the things to try and keep them working properly. Found the same with a few other shimano brakes - you just can’t tell if you’ll get a good set or a bad set (I also got a bad set of deores a while back). Even magazine reviews comment on xt variable bite point quite often as a bad thing on a bike (that’s ignoring the micro leak issue some shimano brakes get).

I fitted Code R’s on both bikes and it’s basically been fit and forget other than changing brake pads when required.

xt for me.. love the 4-pot ones

Just built a Megatower and went with the 4 pot XT with 203mm centre lock Icetech disks - best brakes I've ever had by far and I've tried most over the years.

More power and better modulation that previous generation Shimanos, no wandering bite point so far. Spent the weekend abusing them in wet and dry down everything at Dyfi and they performed perfectly throughout.

Don't think you'd be disappointed with either tbf, guess it comes down to how you like your brakes to feel/how much power you need.

By the sound of your bike I would go Shimano, as they are undoubtedly more powerful than Hopes.

Assuming you prefer on/off power vs modulation then Shimano are great.......as long as you get a good set I can see why people swear by them.  I loved them until my last set of XTs which were great when they worked, but no amount of bleeding could solve the bite point issue.

My Code Rs have been faultless for the past 18 months but I know they are off the agenda.

There is a lot of talk about wandering bite point issues with Shimano brakes.
Either I've been lucky or found a knack, but of the five sets of the modern generation of Shimano brakes I've either never had, or got rid of the issue fairly easily with a top bleed.

Put it this way, I've never been tempted to try another brake.

Is it a draw now? Extra time.

Just in case people didn't read my first post, I am very familiar with Hope brakes I've run them for the past few years. My current bike has E4's and just sold a bike with V4's to make room for the incoming Highlander. I could rebuild, bleed and align them with me eyes shut.

I think what I really comes down to is a known quantity and reliability with Hopes but do they lack performance? or take a chance on the XT's and possible warranty issues.

Still on the fence picking splinters out my arse.

You really want he Cura 4s then - they have a Hope levels of feel but with more power.

Is it a draw now? Extra time.

Just in case people didn’t read my first post, I am very familiar with Hope brakes I’ve run them for the past few years. My current bike has E4’s and just sold a bike with V4’s to make room for the incoming Highlander. I could rebuild, bleed and align them with me eyes shut.

I think what I really comes down to is a known quantity and reliability with Hopes but do they lack performance? or take a chance on the XT’s and possible warranty issues.

Still on the fence picking splinters out my arse.

Flip a coin? 😀 You like Hope enough to have bought a couple of pairs, so go with what you know (and secretly know are the best 😉 )

@razorrazoo @niceandy

I mean there you have 2 consecutive posts and opposed XT experience and my conundrum.

Tbh..I think its coming down to a coin toss.

Because can I **** make a decision.

Not sure if it helps, but I have the XT 4 pots and have none of the wandering bite point issues others have mentioned. They were rock solid in Morzine this year giving amazing modulation and bit when needed.

Normally I get through at least a set of pads in a week, but this year I don't think I even wore half way through a single set - mostly due to being able to brake harder and shorter.

Since you can't decide just get Hayes Dominions. I have had XT, Saint etc and have E4 on the 'duro bike but the Dominions on the trail bike are so much better

Sorry, I realise that doesn't actually help 😀

So would this thread really be about Skill on the Hill 😕 A lack of confidence perhaps leading to thoughts of having a pair of anchors on board.

Just a thought, just a muse....

They say speed is nothing without control, but which of the two affords better control ?.

If you follow the bumpf...Hope, as they bumpf promotes mystical skills of negotiating a course or run exactly, knowing every inch and picking the optimum line....

Let us compare Shimano with Hope caliper.
Currently, Hope is using some space age tech to machine more metal off their caliper, without sacrificing strength so they say.
Shimano on the other hand is pretty beefy in comparison. One chunky bit of alloy, left chunky.

Heat.
What happens to metal when it heats up ?. It becomes softer. Obviously not soft and runny, but at the level where it does soften(metallurgists help here please 🙂 ).
Look at the bridges, that hold two sides together. the metal is thin, and on Hope has cut outs and looks very machined.
Cold thats going to be rigid, and its function is to stop the two opposing sides pushing against the rotor and if hot, then there is more likelyhood that the hopes will flex apart(or try to.)

Just by the fact these connecting ridges are thinner, and sculpted, when warm will be more likely to flex, than the shimano brick

I've got all of their brakes. From the blacksmith made cable caliper, through C2, DH4, mini,mono etc etc now E4.
These brakes in their era had good to very good reviews that have a good reputation and are very solid in use. A few associated issues that were addressed, plastic pistons, gone was the musically tuned inner sleeve seen on the first mini pistons, but basically the same thing. The more powerful were all chunky.- First M4,C2 and DH4.
I can compare side to side. And as such am keeping a new set of 2007 mono m4's just in case.

@dyna-ti your forgetting the hopes and one piece while Shimano are two piece. Those not so thin bits on the hope are substantially bigger than two bolts.

Monobloc calipers came into being to get rid of the slight flex in normal 2 piece calipers under high stress situations.

The top level brembo motorbike calipers are monobloc. Hope calipers are monobloc. What's easier, flexing a single lump of alloy, or 2 lumps of alloy bolted together?

Anyway, if you're producing enough heat and braking so hard to get a hope caliper 'soft' then I look forward to seeing you on the next DH world cup. Or not, as DH racers don't brake...

“Look at the bridges, that hold two sides together. the metal is thin, and on Hope has cut outs and looks very machined.
Cold thats going to be rigid, and its function is to stop the two opposing sides pushing against the rotor and if hot, then there is more likelyhood that the hopes will flex apart(or try to.)

Just by the fact these connecting ridges are thinner, and sculpted, when warm will be more likely to flex, than the shimano brick”

Apart from the fact that the Hope monobloc caliper should be more rigid than a two piece caliper, the stiffness of aluminium will vary by less than 10% across the working temperature range of the brake.

Ok lets just bring it back,..

Could I specifically ask about newer xt m8120 version, if owners have had any issues?, I know previous models have had well documented problems and people will want to raise past grievances...

Honestly I think i want to give the XT's a go,..

Got the m8120 on my ebike, they seem pretty decent to me, No wondering bite point etc, quite powerful, but not as powerful as my sram code rsc.

your forgetting the hopes and one piece while Shimano are two piece. Those not so thin bits on the hope are substantially bigger than two bolts.

Ahh, but you're forgetting the two joining sides have large milled faces that are clamped against eachother. There is less to move than the Hopes. The early hopes maybe bear this out as they too are two piece.

Go for the XT's - a change is as good as anything.

E4s can be had for £135 an end excl, rotors, mount/adaptors and shifter mounts adaptors

Out of interest, where have you seen them for £135 an end? Cheapest I can see is £148 and probably not in stock.

I've e4s on my 'medium bike' and an XT m785 / deore mix on my hadtail. i get on with both but prefer the looks of the E4s. when the old Shimanos die i'll be replacing with Hopes.

It's down to feel I think. I've just taken xt m8020 of a new build after a week of riding in the peaks. Swapped them for hope tech v4s. Instanty felt better in every way.

I've had many Shimano over the years, deore, slx and saints. Sooner or later the seals would leak and I'd have to replace them. SLX were the worst when fitted on commuter bike. Replaced with hope and no issues since. I mostly use hope, although the winter singlespeed uses BB7, which have been utterly reliable.

Hope's hardware is much nicer and the rebuild ability a major bonus, that philips head screw on the XT lever is just crap, even the rear mechs have gone all allen key.
Hopes are consistent, you know what you're getting when you pull the lever.

Can't really recommend Shimano. I found a good price on a set of XTR M9020 brakes last year. Every few weeks they needed bleeding, leave a few weeks and there's no power, oil slowly leaking around the pistons, front brake pistons stick so keep on braking and howling after sustained use even after letting off the lever. So I returned them and they sent me a full M9120 set. Quite nice of them although I did request "anything but Shimano please". They feel amazing, when they work, unfortunately that was only about 2 rides and all the same issues are present. Except now the rear lever creaks badly as well, annoyingly not something a bit of lube sorts out either. They also weigh a ton. Had similar issues with others including M8000, M9000, M615. Got GRX brakes on the gravel bike which work great, but I'm on my second pair because a lever seal blew out on the first set.

I'd be looking elsewhere. Only stayed mostly with Shimano because they seem quieter and more powerful in the wet than some. My Guide RSCs work just fine, never need a bleed. Would quite like to try the Cura 4 piston. Not a huge fan of the feel of Hopes but if they're reliable...

Hope wont cope…

This is funny.

My E4s have coped fine for enduro races, uplift days, swiss and french alps, maderia, malaga and big ol' days in the Tweed Valley.

They also work fine under the finger of much faster riders than me.

Oh shitballs, now I'm back on the fence again.

God damn it. :/

Definitely not Sram. Does that help?!

E4's from £132 at Winstanleys.

XT's for me all day long.

I've got them and they're brilliant, brutal power if you want it but also more easy to control than saint brakes. Had a slightly variable bite point on the rear to start with but a very thorough bleed sorted that issue. The lever shape really works for me as well.

E4's just lack power for me. I wouldn't feel as confident using them on the steep stuff in south wales I regularly ride. Quite a few friends rave about the V4's though.

I bought hope e4's off the back of the various fan boys advice on here a few years ago, and found they were nowhere near as good as the hype would suggest - yes they were reliable, but I had no reliability problems with my previous/subsequent shimano/sram/magura brakes anyway, yes they are very well made and you can get spares for years, but ultimately they lacked power compared to the competition.

They do however hold their value well, when I sold them a few years later for near enough the same price I paid for them.

"Hope wont cope…

This is funny.

My E4s have coped fine for enduro races, uplift days, swiss and french alps, maderia, malaga and big ol’ days in the Tweed Valley.

They also work fine under the finger of much faster riders than me."

Maybe mine are broken but you have to properly yank them to really slow down on anything steep. This yanking over a long ride gives proper arm pump. For instance I really struggled on the bottom of Ponduro to control/have faith in the bike (which is probably part of the issue, if you know you can stop you are more likely to not stop??) whereas with previous Zees that wasnt a problem...

This review perfectly reflects my experience

https://www.perpetualdisappointment.co.uk/2018-hope-tech-e3-long-term-review/

I know some people rave about them (Trev W was particularly emphatic about them) but I have a different, personal experience and so have many others.

Tin foil hat time..."not all e4 are the same, i got a friday afternoon pair"

From reading this thread you'd think Shimano has the worst QC going - don't understand it myself, most of the guys in our riding group run Shimano's (and have done for as long as I remember) from Deore to XT's and none of us have had issues with them - no leaking seals, no wandering bite points.

It can't be bad luck that some folk get bad sets time after time? Original set duff, replacement set duff ...

If anything Hope have a pretty bad rep with us - one of the guys bought a set just before we went to the Alps and they were nothing but problematic, lacked power and needed bleeding almost daily.