[Closed] Shimano vs SRAM - which is 'best'?

Haterz will be and all that but gx for me is xt level, my 11sp is 4000km in and going well, been solid and reliable. Brake wise I'm. Happy to see the end of my xt's but replaced them with hope. Heard a lot of good things about the guides though.

Gears etc are much of a muchness (apart from sram's front mechs being crap, but literally I am the only person in the world with a front mech), but I would never willingly put any other manufacturer's crank on a bike other than Shimano.

but I would never willingly put any other manufacturer's crank on a bike other than Shimano.

Personal preference isn't it. Guide brakes knock spots off xt in RS spec and above, the sram 10t cassette has an advantage, shifting is more solid imo, although some prefer the lighter shimano feel. Shimano always won on price but now the gx and Nx options are available they no longer have that.

I run sram by choice as it all works so well together, reverb, brakes, shifters etc apart from the race HT where shimano wins purely because of the 2 way shifter, hands rest on the brake tops for miles so shifting is much easier. I'm a tart for everything matching so everything else on that bike is xt as well, brakes also come out a bit lighter than guides.

Rockshox on everything for me, but only because I find maintainence much easier sticking to one brand. I'm tempted by a set of fox 36 for one bike but know a service won't be a 10 minute job. Find the guide brakes a lot easier to bleed than shimano as well.

I had a SRAM X9 rear mech on a bike a couple of years back. I liked the button that locked the mech in a forward position making it easier to get the rear wheel on or off, and splitting the chain.

Suspension wise, I've had RS and Fox. I'm not "pro" enough to be able to tell the difference.

I know I have a whinge about SRAM quite a lot on Wednesday nights, but it's not all bad.

My GX1 rear mech does seem very sturdy, but the jockey wheels are shit and replacements are £££££s. The cable routing is also a ball ache as it goes under a cover that is just not necessary. It also goes around a silly little wheel guide thing when a nice loop of cable would be best.

The shifter seems good (although it doesn't have two-way upshifting like shimano. Changing the cable is a bit of a pain as the routing in the shifter is not as Cut and dried as shimano.

The brakes are a bit of an arse (the ones I had) as it was a full two syringe job. Shimano are much simpler.

The crankset is the worst bit. There is a stupid 'you can't use anyone else's bottom bracket' taper on the axle so that there is a step that sits against the bearing as well as going through (if you see what I mean). This is totally unnecessary. The insert that sits on the axle inside the driveside bearing can also work its way out into the [b]intentional[/b] gap between the face of the bb bearing and the spider body. This then causes play that makes it seem like the bearing is knackered. This bit of design is utter shite and SRAM need a kicking for trying to build in incompatibility and making a poor design in the process. Who would create something like this?

SRAM cassettes are not a bad design - having the driver means you can get a 10t small sprocket on so the potential gear range is larger. SRAM cassettes and chains have always seemed better in wear terms to me.

So a mixed bag, but the bits where SRAM have over engineered simple things or deliberately built in incompatibility and screwed up outweigh the positives for me.

SRAM's design strategy a lot of the time seems to be "how many parts does this component really need? Double this and add one to make sure it is different and incompatible with other stuff".

Shimano purely because you can go into a faster gear by using your index finger.
I really don't get the push for up , push for down Sram shifting.

I do like the 10 tooth cog though. Could you make it work with a shimano 11 speed shifter and mech?

Shimano, it just works. They're often a little slow to bring things to market as they like to make sure things work before they do.

I take the view that you need a bloody good reason not to buy Shimano

I take the view that you need a bloody good reason not to buy Shimano

SRAM have stepped up with the 1x stuff and the new brakes

I really don't get the push for up , push for down Sram shifting.

I guess it's what you're used to, if the shifters are angled correctly, your thumb is generally already in a natural position to shift up or down.

I don't really mind either way to be honest, biggest thing is to have them set up well for good shifting.

I'm all sram but my front mech is a shimano SIS lol! It's agricultural but it works and doesn't bother me to much as I don't shift front rings that much, I generally live on the middle ring. But it's nice having the range of a tripple when I want it.
Yes I'm a luddite 🙂

I do like the 10 tooth cog though. Could you make it work with a shimano 11 speed shifter and mech?

Have just done that recently, works well.

Things I think Shimano does better than SRAM:
Brakes (good value and powerful even at the lower price points)
Shifters (shifting multiple gears)
Rear mechs (I've seen so many SRAM ones with sloppy pivots)

Things I think SRAM does better than Shimano
Cassettes (I like XD drivers and 10-42 cassettes, weight is better although more expensive)
Cranks - marginally.

I went from full shim to full sram in 2006. After 1 rear trigger shifter with chocolate internals, ridiculously easily rounded off jockey wheel bolts and rear mech adjustment screws, i started to migrate back. Self-loosening non-driveside crank arm damaged axle splies...back to Shimano. Lost hours of my life to juicy 5 brakes. I'm now Shimano through to shoes and lube!

Edit: Original RS Revs about ready to die....and my xGen front mech and x7 trigger just won't!

I'm a SRAM fanboy if I'm honest.

The 11 speed GX / X01 set up knocked spots off the 11 speed XT drivetrain I rode for two weeks last year. The cassette is wearing really well (it's 18months old and I'm just running it until it's shagged). SRAM mechs can get a bit floppy but they still seem to work; I have an old X9 mech from 2005 that is sloppy as a sloppy thing it once on a bike it works fine.

I'm a convert to the Guide brakes too after the disaster sthat were my XTR Trails, Zee and XT785's all were. I'm running RSC's on my Stanton and my Demo and not touched either other than pads in 18 months. The integration of shifter, Reverb and brakes dies keep things tidy.

SRAM cranks are grim though other than the carbon jobbies, but I run Turbines.

Shimano aren't even interested in competing with SRAM on drivetrains right now, they've made some second rate kit for the OEM market and then walked away. It's not that they're losing, they're just not in the fight at all. I'm using XT shifting and really wish I'd gone GX. A strange turnoaround from 10 speed where they ruled the roost (my Saint 10 speeds are the best shifters I've ever used... And I'm still using M970 XTR)

Brakes, they do different things, Shimano are still good at the "costs nothing, works, not very servicable" market, SRAM set their sights a bit higher. I've no idea why anyone buys XTR brakes- high cost, low servicability, terrible combo. I think SRAM are throwing a lot at the brakes to counter years of their stuff being shit, tbh. But they don't have their near-monopoly in brakes unlike drivetrain so there's more competition. (nobody else has made a competitor for the 2011 Formula The One yet 😉 )

I haven't been in the market for forks for ages. As a result I reckon my "Rockshox are crude but rugged like an AK47, Fox are trick and temperamental" motto is probably out of date. I've never ridden anything other than rockshox, so no help really.

Tend towards Shimano, only because I understand it and I know it's foibles and quirks, they seem to be losing the innovation war at the minute to SRAM, but I've found it's solid and dependable. In the real world, as long as they're well maintained, I don't think there's really anything it it. Had Fox suspension and RS, and while you lose a bit a absolute performance, against Fox I think you gain in reliability with RS, choose according to those "rules" and I think you'll get the shocks/forks you want.

I prefer RS and Shimano, but I wouldn't be unhappy if I had SRAM and Fox either.

I think we're pretty lucky to get a pretty wide choice of mostly good performing kit TBH.

Like Northwind says 10 speed Shimano probably was the pinnacle for any companies groupset - the whole range was perfectly balanced between cost and performance, its not quite the same now they've gone 11, whereas SRAM keep making theirs better with every iteration.

I've always been Shimano and having bought a bike several years ago that had Juicy 3s I vowed never to buy anything SRAM ever again. Those brakes never got changed as the bike sat in the garage unused for years and has only recently come back out. I still hate the Juicys and was all set on buying a set of deores bit the new SRAM levels are intriguing. The reviews I find all say they are pretty good for the money (cheap) and I know that Guides have been a bit of a turning point for SRAM so tempted to eat humble pie and give them a go. Have SRAM really moved past the Avid days?

I always found 9s and 10s SRAM a bit fragile, I went through numerous mechs before switching back to Shimano.

Got to agree with the consensus though, if the fragility has been improved upon (looks like there are fewer CNC bits, so probably) and the cost has come down a bit then the Shimano 11s doesn't have much going for it when SRAM weighs the same and/or has more range.

As for brakes, they seem much the same now. I thnik I prefer Shimano, but actually have SRAM Elixir on my most used bike as there's little to seperate them.

SRAM drivetrain - haven't even tried Shimano for probably 4/5 years now, I have an XX1 groupset that refuses to die. The only bit I won't use is the crankset.

That's for a few reasons, having tried them, and Raceface, basically anything with a self extracting bolt is crap compared to a Shimano crank. So they are what I use.

SRAM Guide brakes - just great. So much better than the old XTR's I replaced.

I'm a fan of SRAM at the moment. Not Eagle however, when it works, i'm sure its lovely but 2 friends riding with it are endlessly swearing at it, it needs constant attention.

Got mix of SRAM and Shim on my bikes and the kids':

2009 XO 9spd still works a dream been through a lot and now on my daughters bike.
2015 GX1 11spd been through lots (strava says 1100mls and I don't use it all the time) and only one cable change, original cassette and jockey wheels 4 th chain though. Using the thumbs is no issue at all.

However I was very wary of going back to SRAM brakes (GUIDES) after years of issues with Juicy and Elixir I had swapped to Shim SLX and Deore. The Guides are brill and I would happy buy another set just because of their feel and modulation.

Obviously the answer is Sram , Shimano don't make a high level Grip Shifter .

Does anyone else suffer from the driveside pedal axle adaptor working its way out into 'the gap'?

It really, really pisses me off as it is so unnecessary.

It really, really pisses me off as it is so unnecessary.

Just add a couple of o-rings. Cost you about a quid and your BB will last for ages.

Tough, but I got to call it Shimano, for the money sram is reassuringly too expensive.

SRAM needs its own special XD hub , mine fell of the wheel with the cassette attached.
1x11 is smoove as is the shifter.
I prefer my Xt 11s cassette and XTr shifter and a raceface aeffect crank, prefer the cinch system and SRAMs over the standard Shimano chainring setup

My Guide R brakes failed last week and the other is on its way out, local shop isn't a fan of sram brakes, and they say Shimano (or hope) all day long
That said I'm awaiting a warranty replacement on a Xt m8000 brake.

benpinnick - Member
It really, really pisses me off as it is so unnecessary.
Just add a couple of o-rings. Cost you about a quid and your BB will last for ages.

POSTED 50 MINUTES AGO # REPORT-POST

Already found a plumbing seal in an Aldi selection of seals and o-rings that fits perfectly, so no, not difficult or expensive to remedy, but should a prestigious manufacturer of bike components have designed something in the first place that needs a bodge like this?

I think not.

prefer the cinch system

I disagree on this one after finishing a high speed descent with a shimano pedal and axle hanging off of my shoe when it flew off. The 'safety' retaining pin is as much use a chocolate fireguard.

The self extracting bolt on SRAM is better.

I'm SRAM-ed up too. I'm a bit conflicted about it though. The guide brakes are the best I have had and that includes hope tech M and X4, XT and the fabled formula the ones 😉
They work very well, hardly ever need a bleed and if they do they are very easy to get right.
The XX1 drivetrain works and works well. I like how the shifter and reverb bolt to the brakes without a million variants but I do miss the trigger shift of XT. No isdies with the carbon cranks, i think theyre great. My biggest worry is replacing mechs and cassettes. It is frankly extortionate and I'll have a long old look at XT at that point. The guides are here to stay though, they're league's ahead go Shimano in every metric I can think of.

Have we done subaru V's mitsi yet?

I'll probably go SRAM when I next get a new bike as so many designs don't work with a front mech and the 10t sprocket makes a big difference to range.
But in my experience Shimano stuff just works, and the spares availability on SRAM brakes is because you need it. SRAM shifters and mechs (and BBS) just aren't well put together and I expect to convert to Shimano mech and shifter if this works with the SRAM cassette after about 6 months when the pivots go wobbly.

dannyh - Member

The 'safety' retaining pin is as much use a chocolate fireguard.

Well yeah, it's the 2 bolts which actually keep the crank on. Any crank's bad if you don't tighten it properly.

mattyfez - Member

Have we done subaru V's mitsi yet?

AUDI!

I'm a huge fan of SRAM for Guide RS and 11sp and above. Not wildly struck by their cranks though, tend to prefer RF.

As for 'level' of groups, I'd agree that by and large GX is XT apart from the shifter, with X01 and XX1 being approximately XTR Trail and XTR Race. GX is let down by the shifter IMO, I tend to use an X1 shifter with it which feels better. X1 kind of sits uneasily in the range, and it's telling that for Eagle they've skipped it (although the GX Eagle cassette seems to be closer to X1 than GX 11 with it's pinned but including alloy larger cogs build).

In my mind Shimano haven't really made the effort in 11sp - the end of the 10sp stuff was great but it's almost like they expect electronic shifting and e-bikes to be the big markets to come and are avoiding the arms race for now.

The 'safety' retaining pin is as much use a chocolate fireguard.

the only crank arm I've had that's fallen off while riding was sram.

So the best all-round performance/value 11 speed groupset is Shimano XT cranks, XTR shifter, XT rear mech with a SRAM GX cassette, SRAM Guide brakes and Problem Solvers MisMatch to mount shifter to brake levers?

For value certainly, I don't think I could argue with that. Get the Guide RSC's though.

SRAM are good at concepts, but awful at making them a reality (top end cassettes being an exception).

10T sprocket adds range on paper but loses so much efficiency that it's pointless.

Shimano brakes had a blip with early M8000 and M9000/9020 but thankfully have that sorted.

Construction of all parts is head and shoulders above from Shimano apart from Sram's cassettes which are beautifully made, but ludicrously expensive and fundamentally flawed with the phoney hook of the pointless 10T sprocket.

For me Shimano win on 11 spd. SRAM win with their entry 12 spd stuff. For now...

Well yeah, it's the 2 bolts which actually keep the crank on. Any crank's bad if you don't tighten it properly.

Wow, thanks for that. It was the speed and suddenness that the crank loosened with that caught me out and I doubt that would happen with a conventional bolt. I may be wrong.

Meanwhile a picture of a bear shitting in the woods to further interest you 🙄

[img] [/img]

You're wrong. 😉

Exactly what loss of W are we talking here?

Shimano...didn't know Sram made an e bike motor

10T sprocket adds range on paper but loses so much efficiency that it's pointless

Sram's cassettes which are beautifully made, but ludicrously expensive and fundamentally flawed with the phoney hook of the pointless 10T sprocket.

Shimano brakes had a blip with early M8000 and M9000/9020 but thankfully have that sorted.

Hmmmm. Not sure about that. My 785's were powerful but always felt mushy even after being returned to Madison. My Zee's weee pretty temperamental too. A friend is still running Shimano brakes (Zee's and SLX). He seems to be constantly fiddling with them. A far cry from the early XT four pits and Saint brakes I ran.

Shimano definitely had SRAM licked with their 10 speed drivetrain and made me switch back to Shimano. Their clutch mechs seemed much better than the SRAM equivalent which still clattered like no mams business. This seem to have been resolved for the 11 speed.

I'm not 100% about Eagle though having heard about cranks not fitting perfectly into BB's due to a gap and the official line is to pack with grease. It seems to have been rushed to market to get one over on Shimano, whereas 11 speed took a while and thought went into it. Plus the cassette looks silly.

'Settled' on 11 speed XT in the end.
Pretty happy with that 🙂

Shimano brakes had a blip with early M8000 and M9000/9020 but thankfully have that sorted.

I've no idea why anyone buys XTR brakes- high cost, low servicability, terrible combo.

And as to why I use them? Well, I've had Hope brakes a plenty for years and fancied a change. I find that the power and modulation is as good from the XTR brakes, but the big winner is that they simply don't need to be fiddled with. I had to rebuild calipers on a reasonably regular basis with Hope brakes in the past and suffered from occasional sticky pistons, but tbh, the XTR ones have been good so far and I've not had to fiddle with them at all.

Regarding the rest of the drive train, IMHO, nothing shifts as well and as consistently as a high-end Shimano drive train (XT and XTR are actually pretty similar from a performance point of view) and I value that my own transmission has never caused me any shifting issues despite some reasonably inclement usage conditions:

[img] [/img]

(and yes, it was still shifting smoothly even with this lot on it!)

Used to run SRAM X-9 until I had a casting in the shifter die, so went over Shimano because I never had that problem with their shifters.

SRAM cassettes, XD/10t has left Shimano miles behind on range and Weight.

I don't like SRAM rear mechs - the one I've used/set up ahve always had play and seemed fragile - I stick to XT or XTR for mechs/shifters, and like having the multiple shifts, I don't think I'm a shifting obsessive like some though.

Brakes - have gone off Shimano, because I can't service them, but have no desire to use SRAM ones, my time on Avids isn't yet forgotten. Hope for me, thanks.

Cranks - am using RaceFace ones - Aeffect and cheap and excellent, had a set of carbon RaceFace fail, on warranty replacements now, so probably wouldn't buy again. SRAM carbon cranks I ran in the past were faultless, would happily go back to them, same for Shimano, but they lack direct mount nowadays.

sillyoldman - Member
SRAM are good at concepts, but awful at making them a reality (top end cassettes being an exception).

10T sprocket adds range on paper but loses so much efficiency that it's pointless.

Shimano brakes had a blip with early M8000 and M9000/9020 but thankfully have that sorted.

Construction of all parts is head and shoulders above from Shimano apart from Sram's cassettes which are beautifully made, but ludicrously expensive and fundamentally flawed with the phoney hook of the pointless 10T sprocket.

For me Shimano win on 11 spd. SRAM win with their entry 12 spd stuff. For now...

SRAM cassettes aren't ludicrously expensive - GX is similar price to XT, but lighter, lasts better, and has the range of the 10t - and the idea that in going from 11t to 10t you have some massive drop in efficiency is just silly, old man. It works just fine - it's only one tooth less.

Ive always thought the looks of sram put me of. Shimano not always the best looking either but still

In case it's not already been done, which is 'better'.

There's only two in the comparison.

I've irrational hatred of SRAM brakes after some old Avid Juicys which were the worst thing in the world. All my bikes are Shimano 1x11, apart from the hardtail which had used wheels with XD driver and I have to admit the SRAM 10-42 cassette is a work of art.

It's interesting to see how long people hold grudges 😉

I still remember pre shadow shimano mechs that had a life span of days at one point 😉

SRAM for me. I have GX 11 speed on one bike, and SRAM XX on the other. With hope brakes on both bikes.

The quality of Shimano stuff has dropped in the past few years in my opinion. This is evident in the number of warranty claims I have to make on Shimano components now! The new Dura Ace 9100 groupset is a case in point. Compared to Dura Ace 9000 the quality has dropped massively.

I can't say I've come across a seized clutch mechanism on a SRAM mech' yet either. If I had a pound for every seized clutch I've seen on a Shimano XT mech' I'd be able to afford an Eagle groupset 😀

At the moment, for me, SRAM have MTB drivetrain duties nailed. 5 11 speed and 1 12 speed systems in the Howard household and not had a single issue with any of it, save a bit of cable tension adjustment.

As for brakes, bit more even, I was a little disappointed my last 2 mtb purchases didn't have shimano brakes, instead they had guides (RS on one, ultimate on another) and I'm very happy with them. Not tried the latest shimano versions but they are as good, maybe better than my shimanos (I'm on 9/7 85 series shimano)

For road stuff, inc hydro discs, shimano is king for me, can't stand doubletap, and won't try etap, as I know I'll want it...

Was just about to get Shimano xt 11 speed, think I'll have a think about it now. Know nothing about sram and it seems quite expensive.

Know nothing about sram and it seems quite expensive.

Shimano : it just works. I would have agreed prior to the current XT. I don't anymore. They've made the shifters feel more positive, as in requiring more effort and now they feel cheap and entry level. Even worse, they are now inconsistent. Go to a shop and compare identical XT M8000 shifters from bike to bike : they're all different in feel for some reason.

Worse still, my M8000 XT rear mech clutch has failed after 3 "easy" summer months. Will see how good they are at giving me a new one through CRC.

Switching to SRAM cassette in the meantime. The Shimano XT cassette is medieval in both range and weight. They need to make a decision on a new freehub body that will take 10t.

Big fan of Shimano for 25 years but disappointed for the first time.

Used to be Shimano but now its all SRAM ever since the disaster that were M8 XT brakes. The only thing I miss is the push pull on the shifter that Shimano do. I do wish SRAM would change to mineral oil from DOT as its nasty stuff

Worse still, my M8000 XT rear mech clutch has failed after 3 "easy" summer months. Will see how good they are at giving me a new one through CRC.

For post-warranty reference, Shimano XT and XTR clutches are actually serviceable components - you can remove the clutch mechanism very easily and strip it down, clean and reassemble. The killer seems to be when they get moisture into the one-way needle bearings as this corrodes them and it'll start to get sticky resulting in a slack chain. Assuming they're not corroded, reassemble with a light machine oil on the needle rollers and a smear of lithium grease on the clutch surface itself and you'll be good to go.

Alternatively, the clutch assembly is available as a spare part for £14:
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/gear-spares/shimano-xtr-rdm9000-stabilizer-unit-y5pv98040/
(M9000 and M8000 share the same clutch assembly)

GX-11 is a pretty solid groupset. I prefer XT shifters for feel though. Specifically I like that XT shifter give me a shift when I press the lever not when it returns

Are more expensive SRAM shifters better?

There's only one way to find out

[img] /revision/latest?cb=20160719222445[/img]

Shimano IMO.

GX changed everything for me. Wouldn't even consider XT now.

Will go GX Eagle at some point in the future too.

GX changed everything for me. Wouldn't even consider XT now.

For me the quantification is quality, longevity and functionality. It wins on all 3 hands down. Again as pointed out shimano seem to have given up on 1x completely.

GX changed everything for me.

Can you quantify this a bit?

I probably can... for most people Shimano won in the 10 speed department. Price, quality, refinement, longevity. It beat SRAM stuff pretty much hands down in all aspects, so unless it was OE you're unlikely to have SRAM over shimano in 10spd form.

Along comes 11 spd. Game changer. New freehub, new crazy one piece cassette, massive range (for the time) and all of a sudden your bodged 10 speed with expander feels, well bodged. Add to that the mechs aren't self destructing, the freehub system is actually better than what it replaces, the shifters feel nice and because theres no front mech, well the 'quality' of the front mech and shift is no longer an issue, and all of a sudden SRAM is starting to pull ahead, away even.

However for most people that was a price too high. The massive cassette costs combined with XTR level shifter and mech pricing was keeping 11 speed pretty exclusive.

Along comes GX and all of a sudden 11 spd SRAM becomes affordable, and its that which is the change. Now people 10, 20, 30 years on shimano have been trying SRAM and switching on a permanent basis because its working at a price they can afford, I would say its likely SRAM will start to see the dominance that Shimano once had for a good while come their way. People are pretty habitual so they will stick with the 11/12 spd SRAM stuff unless Shimano gives them a good reason to swing back. Just my tuppence worth mind.

I don`t think shimano has given up on 1 x 11 at all.

Low to mid-end & trekking & pseudo-MTB OE market just too big for Shimano to completely disregard 2x and 3x groupsets in the same way SRAM has. But you can get dedicated single chainset + 11-42 or 11-46 groupsets in both SLX and XT.

Ive always been a shimano fanboy, and still wouldnt use anything else on the roadbike (although the RED eTAP is impressive stuff). But my new mountain bike came with 2 x 10 Sram X7-X9 mix and I must admit it is not too bad at all. I will go 1 x 11 GX, with the MMX clamp taking care of brake, shifter and reverb remote it gives you a clean cockpit

SRAM.

So I can have Rock shox. Fox are too expensive and I don't like the feel and serviceability. I don't really like mixing brands for some reason.

They're also good with warranty and race support.

Shimano have been standing still a bit with innovating (Di2 isn't needed on an mtb with a 1x.

And only having two clamps on your bars is a bonus

And their brakes aren't as good. Sure they're cheap and powerful but I find it impossible to get front and rears to feel consistent. And two pots don't offer such good modulation. Stoked on my guides still.

I think that saying that Shimano have given up on 1x is a little exaggerated Mike. I think they've dropped a bollock with XT M8000 as it brings practically zero innovation and naively relies on a medieval 11t.

I think it's cultural and down to a certain Japanese engineering arrogance and inertia.

But they'll bounce back IMO. But for now SRAM is leading, I agree.

Along comes 11 spd. Game changer. New freehub...

Ah yes. That. Just what I want with several sets of decent wheels built around Shimano freehubs.

I think they've dropped a bollock with XT M8000 as it brings practically zero innovation...

Isn't that what trickle-down tech is? M8000 is a cheaper XTR. It doesn't need to 'innovate', it just needs to be nearly as good as XTR.

It doesn't need to 'innovate', it just needs to be nearly as good as XTR.

As for freehub you don't need to change them all at once. I'd say xd is here to stay though.

Trickle down is a great marketing tool. But if XTR was that good, then XT group would have 10t, a lighter cassette, a clutch that is reliable, a shifter that was consistent from one item to the other and with a light action and wouldn't have been launched with VERY unreliable brakes that leak.

For me current XT is a shambles, by Shimano's standards.

I have been buying their groupset for 25 years and I am disappointed for the first time. Maybe I have been unlucky ?

As Ben posted gx did something innovative in terms of bringing what was on the big $ groups to the mass prices very effectively.

You've only got to look at GX Eagle to see that SRAM is trying to steal the march on Shimano by keeping ahead of the curve, by any standard the launch of GXE was early, basically ditching X1 (Kind of like Shimano ditching XT I guess) and going straight to SLX level just a year after launching the flagship (which in itself was somewhere between launching XTR and XT at the same time in many ways). Not only that but SRAM is heavily supporting GXE in the aftermarket with very competitive pricing all things considered.

Its also interesting on that point that SRAM has ditched X1 (effectively) it always sat a little oddly as it was both quite expensive, and not X01. Its actually almost as good as X01 in many ways, but it was always the odd ball. Only when the 1150 cassette appeared for GX did that take off, but it has done spectacularly.

Shimano faces the same dilemma now I think with XT. The new SLX gives up really very little to XT in terms of weight or ride, other than probably the shifter, and the cassette debate is sort of waining with the compatibility with XD cassettes, so where now? Keep rocking the same path or go the SRAM way and streamline with less groups and faster trickle down? I think what I would guess is that the next version of Shimano will release alot quicker than normal, with maybe XT and XTR coming at once, and with probably alot more tech in the game to make that distinction. Should be good!

EDIT: With Deore having gone 10 speed again I reckon its more likely that XTR and XT will get a punchy upgrade next cycle. Kind of a way to seperate out the groupset offerings. While Deore is 10 speed you probably don't lose much to 11 speed all things considered, its 12spd where it gets interesting.

Can someone explain why the M8000 cranks have a new and different BCD, which doesn't seem to have the ability to have any smaller chainrings than before?

I could put 30t on my 104BCD chainrings (though not from Shimano), and that seems to be the smallest that will go on these new ones as well.

I think what I would guess is that the next version of Shimano will release alot quicker than normal,

Sometimes it's hard for big companies that are set in their ways to just completely change how they do things overnight.

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Can anyone put forward a sensible argument, that doesn't involve deliberate incompatibility, for the [u]intentional[/u] gap on SRAM cranksets that the driveside insert can work its way out into?

Nope, thought not.

Well interestingly the non threaded versions have a wave spring on the drive side.... why the threaded versions don't I cannot tell you.

Got both, all is fine. Would have either

The sheer beauty of an XX1 cassette seals the deal for me!

Drivetrain experience only here. I am running two bikes at the moment - one with 2016 XTR with about 1000 miles on it and the other late 2013 XX1 with probably around 8k miles on it.

In terms of use, XX1 shifts quicker, more quietly, with lower force at trigger. It needs less fiddling once adjusted and bedded in. XTR has a more audible and 'clunky' feel and takes more force at the shifter to make changes. XTR has also needed more post- bed in adjustment.

In terms of aesthetics XTR looks good but XX1 is prettier and looks less obviously 'engineered'. Even three years down the line, Shimano still need to catch up on looks.

I have felt nothing but satisfaction for XX1 but XTR has left me underwhelmed... I feel Shimano have either missed the boat or are playing a completely different game.