[Closed] Shimano saint, is it obsolete

I enquired to Shimano about this a while ago and was told to 'watch this space'...

Still the best shifter on the market.

Yup, the 10 speed saint shifter is the bollocks. TBH the shifting parts would be very hard to improve on, and shimano brakes are always a crapshoot whether they work or not so it's going to be hard to really improve

Didn’t know there was anything new coming. Stock seems to be readily available. Perhaps a microspline 10 speed 10-30 cassette is on the way? New brake levers might be a good call… but what else could they take from their new stuff and apply to Saint? It all works as it is.

Saint and zee are both six years or more old, yeah?

I guess nobody's really buying the transmission stuff now, so they've no real impetus to update them.

I think zee is dead. Or close to it.

I still love my 10 speed Saint shifter, makes my GX one seem a bit sh$$ in comparison.

10spd Saint shifter, XT clutch mech, Sunrace cassette on my hardtail - very lovely, budget shifting setup.

Did have an XTR mech but sold it and bought 3 XT ones for the same money and couldn't tell the difference. And now I have spare parts.

The question is more, why does a DH racer need more than 10 gears? At one point people were going back to 7sp blocks. Your race is won and lost on reliability, a snapped chain at the start is likely to land you at the back of the pack so perhaps there is a reliability question.

Some things really don't need messing with.

The question is more, why does a DH racer need more than 10 gears?

That dude could have got away with no gears, or chain, or mech. Just a massive pair of balls.

The question is more, why does a DH racer need more than 10 gears? At one point people were going back to 7sp blocks. Your race is won and lost on reliability, a snapped chain at the start is likely to land you at the back of the pack so perhaps there is a reliability question.

Some things really don’t need messing with.

I suppose Shimano had acknowledged that it was being used on a lot of freeride and long-travel trail bikes, when they went to 10sp. I certainly had Zee on my old Patriot (which I pedalled up hills) and it was perfect for it.

But I think you are onto something and Shimano probably knew 10sp would always be more reliable than 11sp or 12sp for when it mattered.

Your race is won and lost on reliability, a snapped chain at the start is likely to land you at the back of the pack so perhaps there is a reliability question.

Depends on the track, no? Arguably less of an issue in DH than any other race format?

The only Saint component that I have is a bottom bracket.
This was only bought because the gold external cups fitted in with the black/gold colour scheme that I wanted, when building my single speed.

That will be 8 years old next month, and is still going strong, despite being subjected to the foulest conditions of any of my bikes, including our annual singlespeed trip to Afan, every January.

I recently resurrected some old Saint M810 brakes, swapped the levers to some XT ones I had lying around.

The power of them is faintly ridiculous. Saint brakes were / are awesome too

launch was in 2013

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/2013-shimano-saint-media-camp.html

i have saint throughout on my DH bike. it's great. would buy again 🙂

I think the problem is that a new saint group now would share market space with XT probably, so why make two products when you can make one and it still sells as well

Shimano are also probably quite keen to remove 10 speed from the top of their product range just because 'moar gears' innit.
Plus I'm not sure shimano ever actually adopted the logic that DH specifically required less clicks, otherwise Saint would have probably stopped at 9 speed. They simply stopped updating it after a 10 speed update and then left it.

There would be little point in bringing it up to 11 speed especially when it always sort of occupied a slot halfway between XT and XTR and both of those are now gaining a 12th sprocket.

Saint if it comes back will probably be pitched more towards #Enduroists, be 1x12 only and perhaps the group they roll out a 53t sprocket with... Who knows.

But I think you are onto something and Shimano probably knew 10sp would always be more reliable than 11sp or 12sp for when it mattered.

Presumably more to do with DH racers not wanting a 51t sprocket or the need to constantly change 4 gears at a time. Hence why SRAM made 7speed GX stuff for DH.

If you are really bored then wikipedia has all the Shimano Groupsets listed here.

Saint does kind of stand out, not having being updated since 2012.

Who remembers "Hone"

Hone had the mech attached to the axle, made sense but like a lot of decent ideas without a good level of adoption it was doomed to failure.

I have a Hone wheel hanging in my garage, with mech still attached. I occasionally take it down and have a look at it. I'm not convinced it was a good idea.

[s] Nah that was the original M800 Saint RD, Hone was a cheaper LX clone with the Saint styling.[/s]

EDIT: I stand corrected. I didn't remember a Hone version of that!

http://www.disraeligears.co.uk/Site/Shimano_Saint_derailleur_M800_SS.html

DH racers, certainly when I was last doing it, were using road blocks so 51t wouldn't be getting a look in anyway. Low ratio gears aren't needed.

It's also not unfeasible that they tested 11sp, got bad feedback and just left it where it was.

Depends on the track, no? Arguably less of an issue in DH than any other race format?

Less of an issue but an issue nonetheless. Chainless runs can get good times but never great times. Remember how devastated Rachel Atherton was with her third place after snapping her chain out the gate at FW.

Chainless runs can get good times but never great times

Or Aaron Gwin winning Leogang in 2015 without a chain?

Who remembers “Hone”

Hone cranksets were great if you wanted something, strong and reliable for not much money, SLX seemed to replace them.

I think zee is dead. Or close to it.

Do you mean Zed? Zed's dead baby, Zed's dead.

I've still got a load of M800 saint stuff in my garage, some of it used but a few NOS parts. Keep meaning to pop it on ebay - it was super-strong - I once hit a mech hard enough to bend the axle (10mm bolt) it was hung off, the mech was undamaged

i'm struggling to see how people think its obsolete. google santa cruz syndicate bike checks for example. it's just become purely for DH, as 11-12 speed had taken over for enduroing

As a more powerfully built athlete... cough.. I have saint m820 brakes on all my mountain bikes, still haven't experienced anything else that I prefer.

Zed’s dead baby, Zed’s dead.

His brother from another mother, Zeb, will be here soon though.

When you're gone, you stay gone or you be gone.

Or Aaron Gwin winning Leogang in 2015 without a chain?

< point you >

< point you >

How many XC races have been won after a snapped chain? Enduro stages? Any other race than DH?

Hone crankset was 5g heavier than the xt at the time. Which was the steel pedal inserts so more dependable.

Still have mine on the long travel lrs that's waiting for #1 child to grow a bit. Black never goes out of fashion.

Along with the front hone mech I have but never plan to use.

How many XC races have been won after a snapped chain? Enduro stages? Any other race than DH?

Another one missing the point.

It's not about freak wins but the fact you are slower without the chain. If you weren't, nobody would run with one!

I was wondering what Tom's point was too.

Think his point was the same as yours. What proportion of DH riders have won a DH race without a chain?

Interesting fact of the day, I was responsible for getting the release of the original Saint groupset brought forward by not knowing about the press embargo. True fact.

richmtb
Subscriber

Who remembers “Hone”

I think SLX remembers Hone

given its the cheap version of saint, surely zee is more like hone than slx? SLX is just LX from back in the day (one step below XT)?

and to add to that, surely DX precurses both saint and zee?

Surely the lack of new products is due to the decline in the DH market.

Same as F1 cars, they look cool and are great to watch but we aren't all rushing out to by one.

I was thinking it must be due an update soon... about a year ago, I needed brakes to go on a new build, but just pulled the trigger on saints to match the other bike.

I don't think its obsolete and has scope to be updated without going to 11/12s

New saint brakes with the new style supported lever would fit in with the rest.
New spider-less cranks, but still more bombproof and with steel pedal inserts - I'd buy those
As to actual drive train mech/shifter... Im sure some refinements could be deployed to make it an upgraded group.....

But you do see DH teams running the new XTR brakes (Im sure I saw) and you can see that there is a bit of a split in the 'non-dh' range with XC and EN variants of the same brakes.

So presumably they do see Zee/Saint as purely DH, and that market must be getting smaller

I used to have a saint shifter a derailleur on my old 4x bike and it as unreal. Despite a very small stiff ht no matter how rough stuff got it shifting we rapid fast and so smooth. If they make a 11/12sp version I would totally get one. I guess the popularity of enduro bikes has sorta killed it abit.

So presumably they do see Zee/Saint as purely DH, and that market must be getting smaller

Not even sure its that the market is getting smaller, its the lack of distinction between them.

What does a new saint group do that the enduro variants of xt/xtr don't other than dilute demand further. Its not like brakes on trail bikes these days are underpowered and the days of sticking boat anchor components on DH bikes because the weight doesn't matter are gone.

Slx took a chunk of the xt market by offering very similar weight and performance at a distinctly lower price point.

Saint and zee would largely do the same unless you can make them distinct somehow. 12 speed road blocks or new axle standards, that sort of thing.

Not even sure its that the market is getting smaller,

The market is getting smaller.

Hardly see any DH or freeride bikes out these days, apart from on my rare uplift days.

Everyone's on enduro bikes and wants a big range cassette. And I reckon ebikes are taking a chunk out of the DH/freeride market as well now.

Personally I'd welcome an extra sturdy Saint/Zee 11sp GS mech that could handle a 46t rear, but then again I knocked an XT 11sp rear mech in my rear wheel while riding fairly fast the other week - and to my surprise it's still working fine after a new mech hanger.

The market is getting smaller.

Hardly see any DH or freeride bikes out these days, apart from on my rare uplift days.

Agreed, as someone said above DH is becoming more like a prototype racing series, I would hope there would always be a grass roots DH racing scene, but you don't HAVE to own a DH bike to ride that sort of stuff now.

I sold my last one in 2011 I think, even then it had been mothballed for a while and took an age to get rid of.

It was a bit like an Elephant, big, heavy, expensive to buy and maintain, cool to own but when do you get to use it?

Saint and zee would largely do the same unless you can make them distinct somehow. 12 speed road blocks or new axle standards, that sort of thing.

I can imagine a Zee being relaunched as an Enduro groupset of SLX/XT with a tougher rear mech, it's not entirely needed (compared to SRAM) but would be a nice to have and probably help them claw back some OEM market share.

Leaving Saint to go down the 7-speed route for DH which does allow things like wider and symmetrical hub flanges. I can't see them developing 12speed Saint, there surely isn't a market for it beyond Enduroists who perhaps see them selves as above Zee.

The other gap in Shimano's lineup is an e-bike groupset like EX1, although how serious SRAM are about that I've no idea, an 8s cassette for XX1 money? I imagine E-bikers (of the Kenevo end of the scale) would happily run something like 8speed Saint with a 11-42 cassette.

The market is getting smaller.

Sorry, I'm not disagreeing with that, just saying I'm not sure that alone would be the driver, it would just dictate the price point was more niche. You're right much fewer about and sales are I'm sure way down. Was just suggesting I think it's got no USP anymore.

(unless they kill off the four pot xtr xt and so on and split it into an "XC" family on that side and enduro on the Saint zee side)

DH is an isn't getting smaller. At a local scale, unless you have an uplift there is certainly far less reason to own a DH bike however the popularity of the uplift services is testament to it still being a popular segment.

Agree SLX is the successor to LX (which was similarly afflicted by a lack of progress in its twilight years) and Zee to Hone. XTR has always had a presence in DH post-Saint for those who value weight over durability.

It's also worth noting that XT and SLX don't offer SS variants; Saint is effectively a beefed up road mech rather than a mountain mech.

Saint is effectively a beefed up road mech rather than a mountain mech.

Ah, a gravel group!

Not obsolete, no. Maybe the market is smaller but there'll always be those who like 10sp and see no reason to shift (arf!) over to 11 or 12 as long as nice 10sp stuff's still available because it works so nicely and lasts so long.

I don't think there's a need for more than 10 speed - but I'm surprised that the 7 speed dh stuff that other brands have doesn't use old-school 7 speed spacing - Imagine how reliable the shift would be!

it does look nice too, I accept that people want the 1x range that modern groupsets offer, but a <30 tooth ring is fairly gopping compared to a nice tight cassette and tiny mech

but a <30 tooth ring is fairly gopping

You've seen DH pyjamas I assume? I'm not sure nice plays into most people's concerns

Who remembers “Hone”

Remember it?

I'm still using a pair of hone cranks, which were just LX cranks painted a darker grey. Essentially 'Hone' was a bit of a precursor to Zee/SLX; mid-range Ruffty Tufftyish group borrowing a couple of features from Saint and most other parts from LX. Once LX became a touring group and SLX was established as the mainstream stepping stone between XT and Deore there really wasn't much point in Hone... Dare I say it, not all that different to Saint.

Whatever you think of shimano, the current product lines and their market "hierarchy" are pretty easy to follow.

Is there a boost Saint crank available? I'm probably wrong but I've not seen one.
Fitting a non boost crank on a boost frame usually works until you go to fit a chain device, which is fairly likely on the sort of bike with Saint cranks.

Saint always had an 83mm (or whatever the spacing standard is) option so, er, maybe? I must admit Super Boost is completely foreign to me.

Ah, a gravel group!

Huh. You know that's not as daft as it sounds. Do any road mechs have Shadow? It is in mountain ratios though so would have to be flat bar to work.

You can still buy the M820 Saint Crank, or the M825 (83mm BB spaced, not sure if that sort of makes it boost-able?) both have the benefit of still accepting 104 BCD chainrings, however they're stupidly expensive for what is essentially an 8 year old product especially when current SLX and even XT are about half the price, and both come in boost flavour (silly asymmetric bolt patterns aside)...

I can't really see why anyone needing a new crankset today would opt for Saint, it was an excellent product at the time but widespread use of Boost spacing on newer frames makes it obsolete, and it costs waaaaay more than the alternatives...

I can’t really see why anyone needing a new crankset today would opt for Saint

If they want reinforced cranks and want the HT2 system Vs SRAM or similar.
Aside Snapping a set of SLX cranks the HT2 is the most reliable system I've used.

Huh. You know that’s not as daft as it sounds. Do any road mechs have Shadow? It is in mountain ratios though so would have to be flat bar to work.

Yep ultegra and 105 now use shadow style mounting, there is a clutch ultegra mech, and then of course there is GRX which is a dedicated gravel group with a shadow+ mech 😉

Of course shimano deliberately made cable pull different for road and MTB beyond 10 speed, specifically to head of people mixing road and MTB parts.

Back when I had a DH bike I remember using a SS 105 (5600?) mech and 8 speed 11-25t road cassette because it was cheap, light and compact. I think you'd struggle to do the same today, maybe sora/Claris mechs with an alivio shifter? Lower spec parts though...

5lab
Member

given its the cheap version of saint, surely zee is more like hone than slx?

WEll, depends on whether you view it on marketing or on hardware tbh. The SLX double crank was the closest successor to the Hone crank frinstance, despite being pitched differently. SLX was in marketing terms the LX successor but in practice was a mostly new groupset and closer to XT than anything else. And of course Zee was never really cheap Saint, it was a kitbash of Deore, SLX and some bits of old Saint pitched as a dh groupset, but not really very good at it. (the mech frinstance was literally an SLX with a 9-speed saint derived short cage on it and some random small parts of the new Saint- meaning that if you caught the cage, it'd put all the force straight into the weakest part and bend the crap out of the parallelogram)

I can’t really see why anyone needing a new crankset today would opt for Saint, it was an excellent product at the time but widespread use of Boost spacing on newer frames makes it obsolete, and it costs waaaaay more than the alternatives…

Not sure it does,

DH bikes already had wider chainsets, and there's a 83mm Saint option, which lines up with a 150mm (or 157mm) hub. The few that aren't tend to be asymetric or use unusual hubs to mimic the same chain line.

Northwind

(the mech frinstance was literally an SLX with a 9-speed saint derived short cage on it and some random small parts of the new Saint- meaning that if you caught the cage, it’d put all the force straight into the weakest part and bend the crap out of the parallelogram)

Yeah - only non-SRAM mech I've ever had just explode for no reason

Back when I had a DH bike I remember using a SS 105 (5600?) mech and 8 speed 11-25t road cassette because it was cheap, light and compact. I think you’d struggle to do the same today, maybe sora/Claris mechs with an alivio shifter? Lower spec parts though…

Yup, same. 105 SS is one of the toughest mechs I've ever run. Still have a Sora on my Shore.