[Closed] Shimano quality through the years

what do they mean "like for like" - I can't imagine anybody wanting to swap a current Deore groupset for a NoS one from 25 yrs ago

"thumbshifters for goalsposts. Isn't it; wasn't it ?"

In terms of product [i]quality[/i], they've never come close to this;
[img] [/img]
Jewel like quality, brilliant performance.

However, in terms of product [i]performance[/i], modern stuff is better.

I've still got one of those rear mechs on the go 😀

To my mind you get a modern equivalent at each given price point and that's about it really, of course there's some 25-30 year old parts still working, and no doubt someone will nurse their shiny new M9000 mech through the next three decades...

Longevity is more about the user than the parts most of the time...

Not sure single air forks, XT brakes or XT hubs are as reliable as the previous technology.

Only had experience of the hubs (freewheels) but they seem to be having few issues.

I've had Shimano for the majority of the last 25 years and reckon its much the same quality wise. It all lasts well and seems to work well. The DeoreLX died after 20 years of abuse - it literally fell apart mind half way through a retro race!

Not as old as the LX mentioned by others but I have an LX groupset fro. Just before it was replaced by slx and it if just fantastic. The shifters are beautiful to use and the RD is none shadow and the same as the older XT m760 one and and very crisp. The brakes may not be the most powerful but are again the same as earlier XT and have fantastic modulation. Not fashionable next to XT and slx so very underrated.

hmmmm I'm sure the budget derailleurs Tourney (think Altus is the lowest you can go to avoid plastic now) didn't have plastic parts at pivot points going way back! Not sure what year they sneaked plastic in, did it coincide with black painted parts?

I realise most STW'ers wouldn't tolerate groupsets below XTR, with derision for peasant bling Deore.

I realise most STW'ers wouldn't tolerate groupsets below XTR, with derision for peasant bling Deore.

I remember from about 02 until shadow mechs the rears were basically food for the rear wheel and evolved to take more spokes with them as revenge. That was when I switched to SRAM

Well they did say sram was easier to set up correctly due to its 1:1 cable pull at the time .

set up correctly

As for design and changes the Sram 11 mechs that now bounce vertically rather than across the cassette are a great step.

I had just got into mtbing and in my enthusiasm used to ride a lot through the heavy mud around Walton heath towards leatherhead and the north downs, often churned up a lot by the horses around there.

My first bike had LX on it but this didn't last well, seals were good enough and the crankset was cheese like.

Found I had to go to XT levels for decent sealing and eventually went to middleburn for the crankset which was much better for resisting the mud - still got it and it's still in reasonable nick.

So I would say Shimano stuff is better now.

I got my first mountain bike in 1986 with a Shimano 200GS groupset. Cheap and nasty looking but it worked quite well.

I've had loads of it ever since including XTR, and loads of SRAM of different levels, several Sachs groupsets, even some Suntour and Campag

Current Shimano?

Absolutely brilliant, both for the road bike and mountain bike

we've never had it so good 🙂

The performance from the affordable groupsets like 105 and SLX is simply staggering

Shimano have also really sorted out their road wheels, which really floundered for a few years

Always remember slack mechs on old shimano grouppos, not now

I remember having to fiddle with my cantilever Exage brakes quite a lot BITD.

But the current brakes are hardly fit and forget.

shhhhh dont tell my bikes that only shadow mechs actually work - they might stop working ....

didn't say the others didn't work but the pile of snapped ones, ripped off hangers and spokes tell a different story as to how well some of them worked.Of course YMMV but that was the experience of the people I was riding with

In terms of product quality, they've never come close to this

Why?

M730/2/5 XT gear was and is bombproof. I have loads of it still on the go and it never let me down. Same for early 90's DX. M900 XTR is lovely too.

Saying that, the modern stuff is great as well and just as reliable.

CFH has it, performance and technology wise the modern stuff is incredible, but you can't beat the robustness, reliability and longevity of a lot of stuff from the 80s and 90s, but then it was heavier, and clunkier...

A lot of it probably comes down to tolerances, 6/7/8 speed gear was chunky, robust and could work well even with a lot of wear, 9 speed is when things started to become a lot more reliant on everything being 'just so' as the tolerances and clearances became tighter. 10 speed was actually an improvement in terms of setup and adjustment but still reliant on everything being tickety-boo. You get a lot more leeway with the older stuff so it will clunk along nicely for a lot longer before the wear starts to become an issue, and al lot of the wear surfaces were bigger anyway.

I'm less than convinced, although in the 90's I was using deore not XTR. Followed by the heady heights of XT 770, then back down to SLX/zee when I realized that actually it made naff all difference compared to spending the money on tyres and forks. My current setups are a mish mash of slightly older 10speed SLX and XT, can't tell the difference between them, although the extra clicks and light action of XTR would be appreciated.

Plastic 9speed deore shifters certainly wasn't a high point of reliability.

Just had rummage.
Currently in use, on bikes that get ridden:

8 speed 105 brifters - not perfect, need the odd double shift.
105 front mech, same age (mid 90's?), perfect.
RSX brakes, same age.

LX front hub, 2001, perfect.
The rear hub's due a rebuild.
Still using the shifters and front mech, spot on.

3 square taper bb's.

XT shifters, crank and front mech, all about 10 years old.
SLX front brake, same age.

RS30 wheels, about 6 years old, abused beyond belief, still fine.

Not bad really.
🙂

Quality wise the mechs seem to be more durable than the 90's versions, but the hubs have really gone off.

XT's lasted forever, even the STX-RC I had on a hack bike, thrown through all sorts and very neglected lasted ages. Eventually the freehub went after about 6 years. replaced with a newer deore LX which lasted about 6 months for the freehub to go.

set of newer XT hubs, pitted after 6 months weekly use.

I had STX-RC. The hub had a simple metal ring seal. If it was immersed in water, it needed stripping down and re-greasing. Had a couple of freehub failures in the 2 years or so I had it.

Well certainly better than the old Positron rear mech I used to have.

I had STX-RC. [s]The hub had a simple metal ring seal[/s] But it was missing the rubber seal

STX-RC all had rubber seals as far as I remember, certainly never seen one without and I still have a rear one in good condition on Mrs A's commuter

the more refined things have become (everything [i]does[/i] work better and is generally lighter*) the more fragile they are. Shifters seem fine but BBs, pedals, freehubs, mechs all seem a bit shortlived nowadays.

Of course whether this is actually down to less material=less life or the fact that better kits means you ride more over rougher ground I dunno. (I certainly cover more miles than bitd. I'd guess it's a bit of both. Altho, HT" are def not a patch on Sq taper for bearing life, same goes for hope xc vs pro2 evo hubs (and I think current fat axled xt hubs suffer similarly).

*cassettes are getting a bit portly

Pretty sure the old stuff was excellent quality but to be honest I would prefer to keep up with the times and use new stuff. The performance now is a lot better, it lasts just as long in every day use (if not a little longer) and is also usually lighter.

The performance now is a lot better, it lasts just as long in every day use (if not a little longer) and is also usually lighter.

Use makes a big difference too of course. Got an ageing road bike (just realised it's >10yo now) and, as I'm a fair weather roadie, kit on there tends to just keep on running (except the octalink BB obviously)

A lot of it probably comes down to tolerances,

I seem to remember I spent most of my riding time tweaking things back then ...

Taken as a whole I think stuff is way better now.

There was a 'chunkiness' about the old stuff - build quality did appear more mechanically solid. However things didn't seem to live very long. I was always messing with rear mechs and brakes.

STX-RC all had rubber seals as far as I remember

Hmm.. you might be right.. I think I am getting my first two bikes confused. The one without the rubber seals was possibly Exage, so cheaper kit.

Longevity?
HT BB's from Hope have outlasted the frames they were in, of the 3 they have probably done 10 years between them with one bearing change in total. No other maintenance.

My last drive train did a solid 2 1/2 years of hard riding with just chain changes and a couple of jockey wheels.

I ride in all conditions and all year round.

None of it is Shimano. The older stuff I had was all 02 onwards, none of it would go near a current bike.

[quote="mikewsmith"]The older stuff I had was all 02 onwards, none of it would go near a current bike.Try selling it to someone who knows which end of a hex key is the working end.

What DONK said.

They can juggle longevity, weight and cost however they want, but seem to be a bit light on the longevity these days.

Newer XT hubs seem to be a prime example.
The alloy axle ones are about 250 grams lighter than the old steel ones, but the freehubs seem to be a bit fragile.

I've gone for a Deore rear hub recently, but not sure about the sealing.
Fingers crossed about the freehub.

Big thread on the CUK website about this, BTW.
Apparantly you can still get the better sealed, steel axle XT hubs.

They can juggle longevity, weight and cost however they want, but seem to be a bit light on the longevity these days.

and heavy on the 11sp cassettes while not being cheap

Hmm, we need to figure in VFM here too surely

1995 XT chainset, RRP £145 if I remember correctly

Current model - RRP £150-160

Taking inflation into account, that's remarkable.

I do like Shimano hubs.
Slap a bit of grease in them now and then and they last forever.
Good value.

Even better, I think I've read the latest ones can be adjusted with an Allen key?
Death to the cone spanner!

I like Hope hubs too, had no issues with ours, but just don't trust myself using brute force on beautiful, delicate things so have to pay someone else to change the bearings.
🙂

true but pointing out that an 11spd 11-42 cassette weighs more than

the other 11sp alternatives from everyone else...

the other 11sp alternatives from everyone else..

Re old v's new, I think the old stuff was finished better (xtr was nice) but in performance terms it is no ware near even low end (ish) modern stuff. I have just rebuilt my dads Breezer with early 90's XTR and it is pretty clunky by modern standards.

The value of modern stuff (XTR not included) is astounding. I bought a Marin Pine Mountain in 1993 for about £1000, it had deore/xt mix, crap wheels canti brakes, no suspension. In 2013 I bought a Scott Scale for £999 it had deore/xt mix, crap wheels great disk brakes, well dampened suspension, it was much better for the same price after 16 years!

SRAM NX is heavier and more expensive. I just got a new XT 11-42 and it felt quite light to me,

I bought a Marin Pine Mountain in 1993 for about £1000,

RRP was £780 in 1993. I hate myself for knowing such worthless information.

tbh after 10 years in a workshop i saw no more exploded shimano than sram almost all cases shimano or SRAM were caused by external force IE rock/stick impact with the occasional home mechanic error not setting the limits or chain length correctly. The stick through my xtr shadow on my superlight did nearly have me greeting - that was an expensive day.

how ever i did see alot less shimano actually wearing out beyond possible use than sram.

Sram gets sloppy quickly + jockey wheels sieze for fun and the b tension screw casting liked to break off , the main shift spring would lose tension over time as well and it would refuse to go into the bottom of the block - even with no cable attached IME.

I guess unless of course folks were sneaking new shimano mechs on and wheels after they randomly exploded taking out there wheels before bringing them to the shop.

Hmm, we need to figure in VFM here too surely

1995 XT chainset, RRP £145 if I remember correctly

Current model - RRP £150-160

Taking inflation into account, that's remarkable.

We've never had it so good in absolute terms.

Sram gets sloppy quickly + jockey wheels sieze for fun

Totally agree with you based on my experience around five years ago, before I went back to Shimano... but friends with Sram 1x11 don't seem to be moaning about this kind of stuff now.

And a bit of selective memory maybe.

I'm not so sure about that, for a lot of us it's that we are comparing old Shimano kit that's [i]still in use[/i] compared to newer kit that has since expired.

ie: I have some '87 MT60 DX stuff, and a fair bit of 90's XTR 95X and XT 73X MTB gear as well as some RX100/RSX and 600 tricolor (6400) road bits that have outlasted more recent gear despite doing more miles and in worse weather.

in fact thinking about it it's apparent that there's a period around 1999/2000 - 2007ish where I have no surviving stuff, either side of it yes, but little from that era except a road 6600 groupset which I bought NOS so longevity remains to be seen... curious

in fact thinking about it it's apparent that there's a period around 1999/2000 - 2007ish where I have no surviving stuff

The only Shimano I have that survived that period well was 7800-series DA. It was absolutely bombproof.
Still quite happily running M735 XT on one bike and the black Deore LX 7spd hubs on my pub bike will outlast me.

Fair enough, but I can't help noticing that the period I remember getting the most mileage out of stuff overlapped with the period I generally had less disposable income to spend on bike bits. I wonder if I just put up with worn bits more then?

I think M970 was the perfect point for Shimano and here's why:

1. It was available before the price hikes of 2008/2009, so was comparably cheap.
2. It was 9sp so the tolerances were well understood.
3. You could still get rapid rise,
4. The BCD pattern was standard,
5. The brakes just worked (but weren't the most powerful)
6. Standards were standards - Everything was 100/135 with a 24mm axle chainset and 3 rings on a 68/73 BB, so all RnD wen't into a single product cycle, not diffused/compromised over many.
7. Even with heel rub, the chainset looked good...on anything
8. The M970 skewers were sublime

[img] [/img]

The performance from the affordable groupsets like 105 and SLX is simply staggering

This.

Everyone is talking about the age of the rear Deore mech or the XTR chainset from the 90's etc. etc. that they are still using. Its irrelevant if you only ride the bike 2 hrs a week in dry conditions, it will last for ages.

M900 XTR was mega at the time but the new stuff is light years ahead in functionality, build quality is subjective as manufacturing processes have improved dramatically over the years however the latest XTR and Durarace Di2 is jewel like and works flawlessly (I have both). The old XT and XTR "V" brakes would rattle their balls off after about 8 hrs of riding and the XTR pedals from the last series used to fall to bits and the light road wheels would snap spokes regular and they are under so much tension the wheel would be like a pringle.

I have two MTB bikes, one for training and one for racing. I do about 10-12 Hrs a week and I go through XT + XTR stuff after about two years with zero mechanical sympathy in all conditions so I am more than happy with that.

PS. Shimano fit it and forget it.

RRP was £780 in 1993. I hate myself for knowing such worthless information.

I think M970 was the perfect point for Shimano and here's why:

I have M970 shifters and chainset (albeit with an M770 XT middle ring) on my 45650b, even with the logos rubbed away the chainset looks great and the shifters are smooth and positive feeling. I have M77x series XT me has as well and they are similarly quality feeling.

I don't think many would argue the gear shifting gubbins we have now for reasonable money (Deore and above) is very good and more evolved to suit mountain biking as opposed to adapted from road biking.

They have been a bit sneaky with the budget stuff though! Which is now not fit for purpose because of plastic parts (it's not there to save weight either) which warp and weren't in the cheapest road racing derived stuff back-in-the-day! Not a big deal just saying that’s not progress.

I think crucially I was better 25 yrs ago; young, free and fit.