Shimano Linkglide

For E bikes probably

the new Shimano Deore & XT LinkGlide groups were developed to increase drivetrain durability for cycling disciplines that are already hard on components, but where a bit of extra weight wasn’t a huge concern, like e-bikes, leisure mountain bikes, commuter bikes, trekking bikes, and bikepacking or adventure bikes.

Not seen any posts about this

https://singletrackmag.com/charged/2021/04/27/shimano-announces-new-linkglide-xt-and-deore-drivetrains-promising-increased-durability/

TAKE MY MONEY.

As someone has commented on that article - this is basically an e-bike groupset and giving it the same name as existing kit is going to be highly confusing, but I'll take a bit more weight for more durability on drivetrain every time. Wider spacing should make it more tolerant of being bashed or worn as well.

Just a little disappointed they've put it on the old style freehub when they've now got something better.

Better, how?

I agree - more durable is brilliant for me.

Where do I buy it?

but I’ll take a bit more weight

There’s “a bit more” then there’s having an XT cassette that’s twice the weight of a (also steel) GX 11sp cassette

If I was still commuting on my old Surly Troll, this would’ve been a perfect upgrade for the inevitably trashed drivetrain. Shame they didn’t introduce a stronger chain too.

There’s “a bit more” then there’s having an XT cassette that’s twice the weight of a (also steel) GX 11sp cassette

Its clearly not aimed at weight weenies though. Its aimed at e-bikers and people who strap 15 cassettes worth of luggage to their bikes and disappear for a few weeks and won't notice one extra.

If you want lightweight, but the lighter and less durable versions.

I think the point is that you can have lighter and more durable with GX

Having not read the blurb, I was guessing the durability bit was going to be down to the cassette being made from steel rather than alloy. So now same idea as SRAM cassettes - steel does last much longer on a cassette than allow does - I'm tight and run a cassette for 3 years - mainly so I can stomach the £200+ cost of the replacement one - seems easier to swallow if I only do it every 3 years.

If Shimano are now doing steel and it is cheaper than SRAM stuff, then it might persuade a few people to switch from SRAM - depends on how much heavier it is and cost of replacement bits - if it is intended for the likes of the ebike market, then the price is likely to be higher anyway, so might not make much sense for SRAM users to switch.

I think the point is that you can have lighter and more durable with GX

That's assuming that the GX is as durable as this stuff. I'd surprised if it turns out that way. We'll see...

Interesting. I always thought that the drivechain would be the first area for eBikes to significantly diverge from regular bikes. Just from observing ebike riders putting huge amounts of torque through very tall gears, and shifting under big power inputs, it was only a matter of time. I just hope that, as eBikes slowly develop into eScramblers, "traditional" human powered bikes don't get forgotten. Next will be tyres "to take advantage of all the extra power and speed" but too heavy for unassisted folks, then obviously frames and forks will have to get bigger, and now that the dang thing weighs a ton, bigger batteries and motors...

Have you lot read the fact that it's not compatible with your current stuff?

So much bollox. Save money by replacing your whole (!probably not quite) drivechain with this other new drivetrain.

Typical MTB

So much bollox. Save money by replacing your whole (!probably not quite) drivetrain with this other new drivetrain

I take the - use it until it's all worn out and replace the whole lot at the same time - approach to gears maintenance, so I'll definitely be considering it when the time comes* unless the extra derailleur and shifter cost is prohibitive, (currently SRAM 12 speed)

*probably/hopefully a few years TBH

That’s assuming that the GX is as durable as this stuff. I’d surprised if it turns out that way. We’ll see…

Why? They're both steel cassettes, so i'd expect them both to be very hard wearing. I can only assume the spider construction of the XT is far stronger, but that is only a benefit to e-bikes.

GX - 380g
XT - 780g (or whatever it is for both of them)

Thats a huge difference, it would need to last until the end of time and be forward compatible with every standard that is ever introduced to be worthwhile imo. Unless you're destroying cassettes on an ebike of course (is that a thing?)

I take the – use it until it’s all worn out and replace the whole lot at the same time – approach to gears maintenance

Fair enough for chains and cassette, but for shifters and mechs? They wear at completely different rates. No one is going to buy these aftermarket as any form of upgrade, but no doubt they'll end up on new bikes.

Perhaps a long-lasting drivetrain with the Gucci feel of XT is a good thing. I don't know why they couldn't make it compatible with current stuff though. Feels disjointed.

Apparently the the new mech & shifters are required due to different pull ratio required to shift on the redesigned shifting ramps. Wether that’s true or not or just sales spiel, who knows

They should have given it different model names. Having two incompatible ranges under the same name is just silly.

I suspect it’s aimed at oem for ebikes rather than any one else.

Have you lot read the fact that it’s not compatible with your current stuff?

So much bollox. Save money by replacing your whole (!probably not quite) drivechain with this other new drivetrain.

Typical MTB

Making stuff backwards compatible just means new stuff isn't as good as it can be.

Why?

Thicker taller teeth, and a different ramping system.

I cannot wait for this - ever since I got my Levo and destroyed the first cassette in 600 miles, I’ve been moaning about how ridiculous it is to put standard drivetrains on ebikes.

I’ve always got loads of mileage out of chains and cassettes on normal bikes (the GX Eagle on my hardtail is still going strong and the Saint/SLX/XT 10 speed I had before that went on for thousands of miles) but on the Levo I’ve consistently seen drivetrain behaviour degrade obviously by 600 miles and be unrideable by 900 miles, and that’s despite switching to Putoline so it’s better lubed. Switching chains frequently doesn’t help because the load from me plus the motor on turbo sprinting to work wears the teeth away before the chain “stretches”.

I’ll keep the XT 11 speed bits now on the Levo for when my eldest graduates beyond an Islabike.

11-43 10 speed will be more than enough range when the motor is on and still ok for riding unpowered. Hopefully it’ll be reasonably priced, unlike SRAM’s 8 speed ebike gears. I like how the smallest three sprockets are replaceable because they’re the ones that commuting use kills.

“Just a little disappointed they’ve put it on the old style freehub when they’ve now got something better.”

If you want to make a durable (ebike) cassette then you don’t want to put a 10t sprocket on it - so no reason to go with the new standards.

Using HG freehub for these is a damn good move.

“I was guessing the durability bit was going to be down to the cassette being made from steel rather than alloy”

No, it’s always the steel sprockets I wear out first on my Levo. Recently I’ve been avoiding turbo (max assistance) except when I’m in a hurry up hills that are steep enough to force me towards the middle of the block, because those bursts of torque when the motor and I sprint up to full speed have got to be hard on the cassette.

I’ve noticed that since they updated the firmware on my bike it doesn’t have as big a lump of instant torque which I think is to reduce the load on the internal belt drive but I think that’ll help the cassette too.

I was talking to a mate who owns a fairly big bike shop last week. The levels of wear he's seeing on kit is astounding, and it seems to be split into two:

* experienced riders who are just doing far more miles with more wattage and riding bigger trail features at higher speed / with more torque

* less experienced or new / returning riders who are doing the same but with far less finesse and just trashing stuff

We agreed a gearbox with single cog or belt final drive would be the way to do, but he pointed out the current bolt pattern and OEM motor designs are likely to be sweated assets for a decade before they get swapped out and this becomes an option for most ebikes, assuming the drag consideration of gearbox setups is factored in.

Riding behind an experienced rider on an ebike on Wednesday night, it was noticeable how far down into the small cogs he was, even in eco mode (as he had a completely knackered drivetrain and was replacing with 10 speed SRAM as there was no readily-available 12 speed spares.

I'm still running both my MTBs with single ring 10 speed setups, mind, so I'm hardly cutting edge. If I munge the cassette on one of the bikes this year, my fallback is to singlespeed the hardtail in some sort of midlife crisis power move.

I just noticed the Shimano 220 mm rotors as well. Pretty obvious that they've decided to split the e-bike stuff from the regular stuff.

I've always used steel Deore drivetrains on my hack bikes. Cheap and last for years. I can understand an XC racer wanting to shave a couple of hundred grams with expensive cassettes and chainrings, but I don't see the point if you're not racing.

I like how the smallest three sprockets are replaceable because they’re the ones that commuting use kills.

I already do this with Shimano and SRAM 11 speed HG set ups.

I never trust marketing material that claims X% improvement. They can't prove it will last me three times as long. I can't prove it won't. But they have a considerable incentive.

Let the ebikers waste their money, hopefully it will start to bring down the cost of all non-e bike related things.

Riding behind an experienced rider on an ebike on Wednesday night, it was noticeable how far down into the small cogs he was, even in eco mode (as he had a completely knackered drivetrain and was replacing with 10 speed SRAM as there was no readily-available 12 speed spares.

If you want to spread the wear across the whole cassette (or just in to the bigger sprockets), looks like we need to go back to double chainrings up front: big chain ring for e-assist and downhill, small chainring is a purely manual bail-out gear.

Or of course integrate the lot in to a gear box, but then again pigs might fly.

That will mean almost zero wear on the smaller chainring though as those who have an ebike aren't buying it to manually push extra weight around, they'll only use the ebike gears and use the benefit of the motor which is the whole point of an ebike.

I'm just happy that there's a choice for those who value durability over lower weight.

I might not put it on a non-e FS bike if I was fine tuning for suspension and general performance but it's ideal for my rigid XC and bikepacking bike.

It's quite interesting how ebikes have had consequences - and I'm not saying that judgementally, by the way. One benefit for me on an analogue bike is cheap four pot calipers, for example.
But as tech advances, it seems to do this. I noticed it 20 years ago on a trail we built; longer travel bikes with more powerful brakes noticeably changed how people rode particular sections within a few years, as they were able to brake later into the corners. It was also noticeable that less skilled / considerate riders were simply straightlining stuff like twisty sections to slow riders before an exit, simply because it was more doable on a bigger bike. It forced us to rethink performance cue features on a couple of later trails to take this into account. Again - this isn't a criticism, more about an ongoing evolution of the sport.
I'd be surprised if the next generation of ebikes didn't start diverging from non-motor bikes in order to make use of what's been learnt over the previous few years about wear, tear and changes to riding styles.

If I had an ebike with 11sp drivetrain I'd be tempted to try one of these cassettes with my existing mech & shifter anyway.

Might not be as optimised as Shimano would like, but if Sram & Sunrace cassettes work fine with Shimano 11sp stuff...

“ If you want to spread the wear across the whole cassette (or just in to the bigger sprockets), looks like we need to go back to double chainrings up front: big chain ring for e-assist and downhill, small chainring is a purely manual bail-out gear.”

Unfortunately there’s rather a packaging issue there - ebikes already have a wider q-factor (which I like but many wouldn’t). Plus at the speed you can take an ebike over the rough, I can’t see a chain staying in place with shifting front rings and a mech rather than narrow-wides and a guide.

It would quite neatly adjust anti-squat to compensate for added chain tension if you used the big ring for assisted and the small ring for unassisted pedalling but it’s not going to happen!

“ That will mean almost zero wear on the smaller chainring though as those who have an ebike aren’t buying it to manually push extra weight around”

We don’t all use the motor all the time but for the majority I agree. I couldn’t see myself using my normal full-sus enough after I’d had the Levo for a few months, so I just have a hardtail and an ebike. If I’m riding with others on normal bikes I don’t want the motor helping because it’s just too easy (or I’m too fast uphill - NB I don’t ride with hardcore XC racer types!) and I don’t want to always ride my hardtail on group rides. The weight isn’t that big a deal unless you’re trying to beat your times uphill on a normal weight bike, it’s just a bit more effort.

“ I’m just happy that there’s a choice for those who value durability over lower weight.”

It feels so horribly wasteful to have to throw away bits of drivetrain after too few miles. A few hundred grams of cassette weight isn’t ideal on the back of any MTB because of the unsprung weight but on anything that’s not dealing with rough ground or getting airborne, I can’t see it having much detrimental effect at all.

I think the point is that you can have lighter and more durable with GX

That’s assuming that the GX is as durable as this stuff. I’d surprised if it turns out that way. We’ll see…

I have 5067km and counting on a GX 11 speed cassette..

“ I have 5067km and counting on a GX 11 speed cassette..”

On a full power ebike?

Riding behind an experienced rider on an ebike on Wednesday night, it was noticeable how far down into the small cogs he was, even in eco mode (as he had a completely knackered drivetrain and was replacing with 10 speed SRAM as there was no readily-available 12 speed spares.

I wonder if some of this is software too -

I've not had much time on e-bikes but on the Bosch motor Whyte I've been riding I found it was giving power at a lower cadence than I'd normally ride - especially when climbing - which meant changing down to a smaller cog. it was really hard to get it to usefully assist climbing on the upper parts of the cassette. Looking forward to riding the Orbea rise which supposedly is designed to work at higher, more natural, cadences.

“ I have 5067km and counting on a GX 11 speed cassette..”

On a full power ebike?

No

XT 12 speed chains seem to be pretty delicate- in fact the only chains I can remember breaking for about the last decade, and I've done way less miles on them than I have with my usual KMC X12. Something I've seen picked up on elsewhere too... so I'm wondering what "3 times more durable" means in comparison with those, and with other people's chains?

simondbarnes
Full Member

Making stuff backwards compatible just means new stuff isn’t as good as it can be.

That's the downside. The advantage is that, well, it's backwards compatible. That's not trivial, and it's not just about "I want to use the bits I already own". Any new standard is harder to support- when you walk into the only bike shop in town because you've broken your mech and they say "Oh, sorry, that's that new standard Shimano made that's incompatible with everything else, we don't stock that" then you see the real benefits of backwards compatible.

“I have 5067km and counting on a GX 11 speed cassette..”

“On a full power ebike?”

“No”

Well there you go! I generally do thousands of miles on cassettes on normal bikes but only hundreds on an ebike. The load on the sprockets is so different, especially if used for short trips on full power and you’re a reasonably powerful and impatient cyclist.

XT 12 speed chains seem to be pretty delicate- in fact the only chains I can remember breaking for about the last decade, and I’ve done way less miles on them than I have with my usual KMC X12.

Try the XTR - I’ve had really good life out of mine. Only 12 spd Shimano chain that’s made by Shimano rather than KMC.

That’s the downside. The advantage is that, well, it’s backwards compatible. That’s not trivial, and it’s not just about “I want to use the bits I already own”. Any new standard is harder to support- when you walk into the only bike shop in town because you’ve broken your mech and they say “Oh, sorry, that’s that new standard Shimano made that’s incompatible with everything else, we don’t stock that” then you see the real benefits of backwards compatible.

Working in a shop I'm fully aware of that. From a purely personal point of view I want things to be as good as they can be though. The R7020 groupset on my nice road bike is infinitely better than the 10spd Dura Ace & Ultegra that I ran on my previous nice bike and that just wouldn't have been possible had it been made backwards compatible.

I haven’t tried to find out the precise details but I presume they’ll be using thicker sprockets to improve the durability, which then require wider centre to centre spacing so the chain side plates can fit, hence the change in the mechs.

sillyoldman
Full Member

Try the XTR – I’ve had really good life out of mine. Only 12 spd Shimano chain that’s made by Shimano rather than KMC.

TBH KMC's own lines and SRAM both seem a lot better without paying XTR prices. (aside; do KMC still make the Shimano ones? I thought they said they were doing it all in-house when they launched the 11 speed range)

simondbarnes
Full Member

Working in a shop I’m fully aware of that. From a purely personal point of view I want things to be as good as they can be though.

OK but you said "Making stuff backwards compatible just means new stuff isn’t as good as it can be", you seemed to be ignoring the benefits. For me, availability and usefulness is about being as good as it can be, or at least part of it... the best performing groupset in the world would be terrible if you can't get the bits. Usability and livable-with-ness is part of what makes stuff good or bad.

I have to say this is the first new product to interest me in ages. I'm probably weird tho, still riding 8 and 9 speed, and don't off road as much these days, and gone quite anti-consumption.

The durability and price of modern drivetrains just seems daft to me...I should probably try riding them tho!

The optimisation of rear mechs for shifting is mostly about parallelogram angle and offset. If the general profile of the cassette is sort of the same, then existing mechs should be quite capable of shifting the chain from one cog to the next. The missing piece in this would be a shifter indexed for the cable pull required for the cassette spacing.

This would offer backwards compatibility and a minimal increase in internal and retail SKUs (good for the aftermarket supply chain).

LinkGlide could have been a heavy duty cassette and chain option. However looks like Shimano want to have a way to target the OEM e-bike market and substituting in a cassette and chain would be invisible from a brand PoV. Their established order of Deore, SLX, XT gives them opportunity to offer Linkglide equivalents direct to manufacturers and have a plausible B2B sales pitch (good for the OE supply chain and damn the aftermarket).

My guess is that they deliberately made it incompatible because they do not want people mixing and matching regular and e-bike components. I can well imagine people buying a replacement cassette based on price and inadvertantly putting a standard one on an e-bike to replace a Linkglide one, then complaining that it wears out too fast. By making them incompatible, that cannot happen.

@thols2, isn't that exactly what's being complained about. Removing a capability to swap and change when in reality you might have a dead bike in need of a replacement part. The choice is between getting that bike going again Vs getting it back to original spec after a search and wait for a specific part to be available. If you're in a resort and you bend a mech, you'll Want to replace with something immediately available. If the number of Shimano standards has doubled you have half the chance the retailer will have the part in stock unless the retailer doubles their inventory.

isn’t that exactly what’s being complained about.

Yes, it is what is being complained about. Clearly Shimano have done this deliberately - they do not want people to mix and match e-bike and regular drivetrain parts. If you disagree with that decision, you don't have to buy a Shimano equipped bike.

Try the XTR – I’ve had really good life out of mine. Only 12 spd Shimano chain that’s made by Shimano rather than KMC.

I thought Shimano had brought it all back in house some time ago (10 or 11 speed era)? It was part of the reason why they could claim the durability was going up despite chains getting smaller.

I've got a Shimano chain on a GX drivechain in rotation with a couple of Sram ones, I'm sure it shifts better, but then it's always comparing a freshly waxed chain to whatever comes off.

“Clearly Shimano have done this deliberately”

But have they? Cassette sprockets on 11 and 12 speed are pathetically thin, and fill very little of the inner width of the chain.

If Shimano have made the sprockets thicker (which is the obvious thing to do for durability - and explains the increase in weight) then how can they make the new drivetrain backwards compatible?

Depending on price, I might get one of these groupset' for the Stooge for when I feel like gears. I might just buy Deore instead though.

thisisnotaspoon
Full Member

I thought Shimano had brought it all back in house some time ago (10 or 11 speed era)? It was part of the reason why they could claim the durability was going up despite chains getting smaller.

Yeah, that's what I thought too. Nonsense of course- the KMC-made Shimano chains weren't great, but only because they were made to Shimano's not-great spec. KMC's own design, own brand chains were fab.

Would it not help if cassettes had somewhat larger top gear sprockets? An 11 is horrible inefficient and wears so badly. Can't claim to be e-clever though as I borrowed my brother full suss ebike for only my 2nd ever eride yesterday. Even on the hills that had my analogue mates (that are fitter than me) out of the saddle I was no lower than about 5th. A much closer set of gears would surely enable a more economical design.

Would it not help if cassettes had somewhat larger top gear sprockets?

It would be heavier. Not good marketing.

thisisnotaspoon
Full Member

I thought Shimano had brought it all back in house some time ago (10 or 11 speed era)? It was part of the reason why they could claim the durability was going up despite chains getting smaller.

Yeah, that’s what I thought too. Nonsense of course- the KMC-made Shimano chains weren’t great, but only because they were made to Shimano’s not-great spec. KMC’s own design, own brand chains were fab.

Hadn’t heard that - no idea to be honest! XTR/Dura-Ace chains suggest that Shimano’s spec isn’t the issue though. Appreciate they’re not cheap, but compared to other consumable drivetrain parts these days, they’re also not crazy expensive.

Re Linkglide - I’d guess the shifter can only upshift one at a time, and downshift one or maybe two at a time to prevent cack-handed multi shifts under big load on an E-Bike. If that’s the case, it makes total sense to make it a unique system without cross compatibility so that you can’t swap the shifter to a standard Shimano with multiple shift ability. No point in building in protection for the drivetrain and user if it’s easily circumvented.
It’s a pretty specific system that you either want or not - don’t really see the point of mixing it with other systems.

Right enough - only HG53, HG73B and CN4601 are made by KMC. Cheers for info!

sillyoldman
Full Member

Hadn’t heard that – no idea to be honest! XTR/Dura-Ace chains suggest that Shimano’s spec isn’t the issue though

Nah, definitely shimano's spec/design- KMC made far better chains, at the same price point, to their own design. Shimano basically had them making a not very good product which sold anyway because it said Shimano on.

KMC chains don’t shift as well or run as quietly, so I guess at the lower pricepoints, they both have compromises.

Never found that tbh, I use the basic KMC chains when I've got a choice and as far as I've ever felt they shift exactly the same as XT chains... Never had an XTR 12 speed but for 9-11 it was the same, XTR chains were lighter but they didn't shift any better.

Pretty common for shops to swap KMC for Shimano (particularly on road bikes) to improve shift and reduce noise - I’d imagine some deep section carbon wheels can amplify the noise.
XTR just last much better IME.
To be fair I haven’t used a KMC since 3x9 days though!

I know Shimano seems to be about 18+ months behind their production schedules at the moment, but has anyone heard anything about Link Glide coming into stock at some point soon?

This post inspired by me apparently destroying a Microshift (actually I just typo’d that as Microshit which is rather appropriate) 11 speed cassette in SIX WEEKS!!! Yes, 6 weeks and only about 200 miles and the Levo’s motor plus my legs have worn out some of the smaller sprockets to the point that they’re skipping.

Loads more information here

https://nsmb.com/articles/gambling-on-the-retrogrouch-shimano-xt-linkglide-m8130/

Looks good. It even avoid the 15 18 jump which did sometimes annoy me on 9 speed. The 11 13 never seems to matter as much

11-13-15-17-20-23-26-30-36-43-50T

Got LinkGlide yesterday! Looks solid AF. Hoping it lasts!

What did you go for and where did you get it? Thinking of the 10 speed for the emtb

I’ve got the XT 11 speed. After realising my cassette was so knackered that I couldn’t use my biggest few sprockets (they’re the unworn ones) I started hunting online for LinkGlide rather than put on my back-up HG SLX 11s cassette. And amazingly it was finally in stock in places!

Popped into my LBS to have a chat about something else, mentioned LinkGlide and they said they had it in stock so I got it from them and saved myself the hassle of fitting it. I think they’ve got 10 speed too - the boss there said that generally 11 speed was for eMTB and 10 for e-utility.

I did think about 10 speed but I’m planning to ride my Levo as an unpowered bike on some away trips - rather than take my (currently singlespeed) hardtail - and I thought I might want that big sprocket if I’m doing a big climb on such a heavy bike.

I had HG XT 11s before and it feels at least a nice - I like the shifter a lot!