can't see a thread recent enough to be open so new thread time.
Don't do much (any) off road currently as family commitments get in the way, and my 456 has been on rigid singlespeed commuting duty for years. 8 mile mainly flat london commute except for the home end where the crystal palace ridge forces me out the saddle but its not high. I'm getting older and lazy though and fancy gears but like the zero maintenance aspect ..dilema. after years of use and not even washing the bike, i need to do some maintenance...BB has worn out and looking at the 32T chain ring (old XT steel ring) and even the groove armada 16T sprocket its time for a new drivetrain while i've got the crank off. So, opportunity to go back geared and I'm thinking alfine 11 speed. questions.
its been around a good while now, is it reliable, or rather have the early problems all been ironed out?
should i get the di2 version? the hub itself is ridiculously cheap, I found it somewhere...crc maybe, for £70! ok, add in the motor unit, the shifter and whatever else and I think it'll be a similar price to the cable unit. If the di2 is worth properly exploring, what do i need? hub, motor unit, sprocket, shifter, battery? is that it?
cheers all
di2 version i think the bits are
hub £70
https://www.chainreactioncycles.com/shimano-s705-11-speed-internal-geared-hub/rp-prod208000?gs=1&sku=sku846366&utm_source=google&utm_term=&utm_campaign=&utm_medium=base&gclid=CjwKCAjw_b6WBhAQEiwAp4HyICy6efKld06RXUHFByhvFevIsAAUE6iUEeQQQRQPb-26TDeHvR57pBoC37gQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
not quite sure what shifter i need,, this one? £100
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/175292411097?var=0&mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=710-53481-19255-0&campid=5338343596&toolid=10001&customid=eb%3Ag%3Avms%3Aeb%3Ap%3A175292411097%3BCjwKCAjw_b6WBhAQEiwAp4HyIOi2ULYX4bGPikei89jMJGjxqm5P1C5H1P-dQErRlMiaII3j_xSwohoCqXkQAvD_BwE&gclid=CjwKCAjw_b6WBhAQEiwAp4HyIOi2ULYX4bGPikei89jMJGjxqm5P1C5H1P-dQErRlMiaII3j_xSwohoCqXkQAvD_BwE
then battery, battery hilder, cables...I have no idea!
yeah saw that youtube the other day, he has tested the alfine hard and it seems a very positive review
I've an 11 speed cable and the shifting is always a little out somewhere. Get Di2
I've read the 11 speed is very sensitive to cable tension being just so. And a thread here from 2018 suggested indexing the di2 (in the software) can be a game too, but once set I guess it's done and forget.
Why 11 rather than 8? Doesn't sound like you'd need the range of the 11 from your description of usage.
Just because 8 doesn't seem loads cheaper, the oil bath 11 of possibly more durable than the greased 8, and the better spaced gears. 409% over 310% range may not be needed now but it's no downside
Why 11 rather than 8? Doesn’t sound like you’d need the range of the 11 from your description of usage.
The hub is £70 on CRC
8spd is more reliable and cheaper and runs nicely on an annual dunk in atf. Why complicate it with electric shifting? You van have trigger shift or twisty on the 8
The hub is £70 on CRC
That would be unbelievably cheap.
Indeed it is.
The 11 speed is pretty reliable. Can’t say I noticed any particular issues with cable tension. I did maybe two and a half years commuting 13 miles each way a day on mine before that bike got stolen and it basically didn’t skip a beat. It did sound a bit rough by the end which I’m pretty sure is because I only changed the oil after a couple of years- don’t neglect it and I think you’d be fine.
In your shoes though, unless there was a major price difference, I’d get the 8- just less moving parts.
TJ, that's why I'm here and asking, is 11 speed as reliable? It's not miss costly and while I doubt I'd post more for leccy shifting it's possibly cheaper than cable and... Well... Isn't it supposedly simpler than cables
I know the links above don't include battery, holder and wires and I don't know what they cost but £286 for hub, motor unit and shifter so I'm guessing £400 ish plus a wheel build and I'm good to go. What does 8 speed come to?
I’ve got the 11 speed on my general commuting/zooming about bike and it’s great for what I need
My only problem is the technical side scares me - it’s such a black box of magic, I’ve no idea what’s going inside or how it works!
With a regular derailleur set up I’m happy enough tinkering with limit screws and cable tension to get it shifting well but I just don’t have a clue with the hub gear. It’s currently skipping in only gear 2 but perfect in all the others so now I just avoid gear 2, rather than playing about with it and risking messing up the rest of the gears 🤣 I don’t even know if it is a problem I could fix or if it’s a bigger issue with worn/damaged gears in the hub
Worth noting though that I bought mine second hand and I don’t think it was really looked after (even though the oil change is the most infrequent and easy job ever), I guess a brand new one, especially with Di2 shifting, would be able to sort those problems
I used to have 8sp Di2. I didn't want Di2 but it was the only way it was possible to get drop bar STIs, hydraulic disk brakes and a hub gear all at once. Road commuter/winter bike.
Anyway, the Di2 shifting aspect was spot on, no issues there. However, the hub itself was terrible, really draggy and the weight in the wrong place. Had two of them as it was so draggy I thought there must be something wrong with the first one!
Gave up after two years and went back to singlespeed, so much nicer to ride.
Just stick with what you have OP, spend the money on a good service instead.
Just because 8 doesn’t seem loads cheaper, the oil bath 11 of possibly more durable than the greased 8, and the better spaced gears.
I've used an 8 speed for many years and it's been faultless. Think the 11 is supposed to be less reliable despite the oil bath. You do get more range with the 11 though.
Oh I don't know. I've always been happy doing any bike build or maintenance tasks, but just managed to find the dealers manual and am going through it and thinking,. Qué? Part of that is not having the bits on my hands but I might have to resort to finding a lbs that knows this stuff. Not against using a lbs, just haven't needed to in so long and the one I used had changed hands...I'd need to take my chances somewhere new. :/ Hmmm I need to find one to build the wheel anyway I guess so giving them some extra to get the remaining bits of the system too complete it, and perhaps initial install might be necessary......I feel like a failure saying that!
Don't feel too bad about that. My first time converting an ebike to Di2 Alfine, for a customer, had me a bit baffled at first.
There's no real specific " you need exactly these bits" instructions so I ended up calling Madison (UK Shimano distributor) for advice.
A shop with experience of them is a good idea or they can just do what I did and ask for help.
Once you have the right parts though it's all just plug and play.
Although you should add:
Cable junction box, rear sprocket and axle nuts, specific to your drop outs, to your list above 👍
However, the hub itself was terrible, really draggy
To the op, this is worth thinking about. Some people don't mind or even notice the different feel of hub gears but others do and hate it. Have you tried one? If you can, it might be worth doing so before you buy.
To balance it out, my 8 isn't draggy, except when I'm plugging away in first through mud or long grass etc, it *feels* draggy but I think it's just the feel of the gears through the drivetrain.
Idly wondering if you can get the cheap Di2 hub and swap the external bits to make it cable actuated...I bought all the gubbins as spares when I broke something on mine.
The 8 sp is noticeably freer once dunked in atf
I ran an Alfine 8 speed for a few years on a Genesis IO and a Kinesis. great bit of kit, used in and around the Hills of N Wales, Lake District etc.
not a single issue. Wheel removal was a bit of a faff as you needed a spanner to get the wheel off, but no issues with shifting and I didn't feel the weight at all.
I have an 11 and it if fine (if you don’t mind it dribbling oil occasionally), except it is impossible to get the low and high gears perfectly indexed at once. It doesn’t feel too draggy, but the roller clutches mean it will never give a particularly snappy engagement.
The big appeal for me is the ability to shift when stationary, which is great for commuting. For normal road or mtb a derailleur is cheaper and better.
Di2 is appealing as it shifts perfectly (llandegla had them on hire bikes years ago). However the cost of the battery, cables etc are high even if you get a bargain hub.
I ran my 11sp Alfine Di2 for over 4 years and 20-25k km. In that time it needed 3 fluid flushes at maybe £12 each and that was it. You do have to back off when changing gear uphill, but you get used to it. The only downsides are weight concentration at the rear of the bike, and the most noticeable one, which is hub drag. I had a cable version for 2 years before this and it was a PITA. Always skipping, always ghosting. The Di2 fixed all of that.
They are very reliable, but don’t be tempted to skip the servicing because it’s working fine. They’re very cheap to run (steel, cheap sprockets). The only other major downside is that they only work in QR dropouts, which, coupled with the drag, made me opt out for the new bike.
I still miss the lack of maintenance.
Thanks all. I think if I can find a lbs that seems to know a bit then getting them to build the wheel and order any bits I've missed would be worthwhile and di2 11 speed isn't cheap but with the hub at £70 (wiggle too it seems) the system would be £400ish, or not far over.
I had an 8sp on the commuter and an 11 on the MTB when they first came out, so over 10yrs ago now.
The 8 was far more reliable and less picky about cable tension etc, but the 11 I always had an issue with, cable tension & repeated oil leaks - but things may be different now it's 10yr old tech.
Hmm, all this talk of converting to Di2...
I wonder how difficult that would be on the 8 speed version. 🤔
What does 8 speed come to?
There was one in the classifieds for £70 quid complete (cable actuated) a week or two ago but since went on ebay. I paid £350 for mine but it was attached to an Orange P7. First impressions are that, yes, it's heavy as hell in the sense that the weight is concentrated in one place and I'm not sure how draggy it really is (will be getting a dunking before I make a final judgement) but otherwise its spot on for shifting.
The shifter though. Urgh. Stupid big window with no option to remove, if someone competent could come up with a 3D printed option to delete it they would make a few quid off it I reckon as plenty of folk complain about it. Only other options are Nexus Revoshifters or Jtek bar ends/thumbies. That's my only gripe as I prefer my brakes inboard, the rapid rise shifting was actually not all that apparent, maybe because you can only shift one gear at a time which surprisingly didn't bother me either.
Hmm, all this talk of converting to Di2…
I wonder how difficult that would be on the 8 speed version. 🤔
Probably not that hard, it's the cost/benefit calculation that's the issue and entirely subjective. For me it's adding a complication to something that should be fit and forget (mine is primarily a commuter bike), YMMV
Okay I'm studying the dealer manual and starting to make sense of it
Battery holder £65 bm-dm100
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/255580901924?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=7zoimpkcQk2&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=ouq3u5EnS2m&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY
Etube cables made to length ?
Sprocket (and any old chainring in the be 2-2.5 range). With horizontal swap outs on the 456 I don't need a tensioner so I can run 19T and 38T
Fitting nuts for the swap outs which are actually rear fork ends.
Wow it mounts up, I'm making a total of £557, plus cables sprocket and fitting nuts so actually it's going to be ~£600 even though the hub is only £70. Suddenly I'm not so keen.
There was a thread about a much cheaper alternative to Di2 a week or so ago, I'll see if I can find it..
Can't see any mention of Alfine unfortunately..
https://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/alternative-wireless-shifting-psa-50-off/
Ooh, that stings! Definitely not entertaining that notion now!
Dependent on if you’re doing internal or external battery, you can usually get the battery for £50-90, the display for £50, cables for £15 each (you’ll only need 2), motor for £60-£120 dependent on generation and the sprocket for £10. You’ll then need shifters. £400(inc hub) + shifters. And you’ll need a charger, and possibly an alfine specific chainset as they have a very odd chainline.
How do you do it with two cables? Does the external battery act as a junction box? I have always assumed it would need 1 cable from hub to junction box, then one from there to the battery and another to the shifter.
It surprises me that no one does fake di2 cables. The markup must be huge.
Twas a good thread on the CUK forum about this.
Can’t see any mention of Alfine unfortunately..
Unless the Alfine trigger pulls more cable than a regular shifter there's no reason why it wouldn't work... Just set the shift possition correctly in the app.
Probably not that hard, it’s the cost/benefit calculation that’s the issue and entirely subjective.
it’s going to be ~£600
Ah, right you are. Think I'll stick with the thumbie and cable!
Unless the Alfine trigger pulls more cable than a regular shifter there’s no reason why it wouldn’t work
It does, the pull ratio is completely different hence the issue I'm having with the shifter pod. At the very least you would need the correct motor assembly but after that it should be fine. Should doing some heavy lifting there of course...
squirrelking
The shifter though.
I have the same issues. Tried to disassemble a shifter in the hope I could reverse engineering a window blanking plate but no such luck. Hasn't stopped me running 4 different Alfine hubs across 7 different bikes and having an entire replacement setup spare in my cellar too.
Just like a standard rear mech has compromises, so do all the other shifting systems.
You can do it with two cables if you don’t use the display, just the a shifter with two ports. Then it’s just one to the motor and one to the battery. With the display, you need a 3rd very small one.
I read somewhere you always need a j-box a, but can do it without the b, and I'm not sure the shifter can act as a j-box.
Having ditched the idea of 11sp I cost cable operated 8 speed. Hub, hub fitting components and shifter comes in at £200. That seems very much more reasonable, so £300-350 after the wheel build I guess. Might do that. Ori may just stay auntie speed after all!
and fancy gears but like the zero maintenance aspect
Deore 12 speed, fit and forget it
starbike seems a good place to buy from except....i'll get charged vat and import duty won't I?
still reasonable. ive got everything in my basket (8 speed hub, parts kit for horizontal drop outs, 18T sprocket, shimano centre lock rotor, dt swiss 544d rim, dt brass nipples, sapim race double butted spokes, rim tape, wheel build and UK shipping) total cost £215.85. plus vat, import fees and royal mail handling fees....ad about £60. Oh and the shifter which oddly they don't have, is £25 at bikester. so yes, £300 all in.
if i hit buy, what chain ring size wold be good? I'm thinking about 38T?
My P7 is 34:18 which is fine for the big road hill beind Largs. (do a Google maps run from Largs Academy to Greenock cut centre for an idea of the gradient) I'm pretty unfit at the moment so that's probably not bad for your use case. I used to rock a 39:18 single speed in Glasgow and still climb the hills on a steel bike with DH casings and tubes, I miss those days.
That seems odd. you used to be fitter but ould muscle 39:18 single speed up, yet now with less fitness admittedly, but the ability to gear down to what..0.57 is it in the hub, your running 4T less?
I used to be fit and muscled 2:1 about briefly in bristol, then in london and off road at the downs or epping forest. these days I'm not fit, and its road and the crystal palace hill is about it, its fairly short, sharpish but nothing to write home about really. even now as unfit as I am, if I stay single speed and just replace the worn out bits I was thinking of going 36:16.
