I don’t know if this is old news but it’s the first I’ve read about it, but it looks like Shimano has done a big shakeup of its mountain bike drivetrains for 2025.
- no more SLX tier
- XT and XTR are wireless only with no mechanical option
- Deore still exists as mechanical but with option for Di2, and CUES still exists as mechanical but nobody understands it
What do you think of this? Personally I’m pretty annoyed about it because having tried electronic shifting and stripped it back off my bike because I hated it, it means I’m left with far fewer options now.
So it's deore, some 9/10/11speed something or techobatteryshite? Rubbish.
But at the same time sram are going for more mechanical options. Sram then moving forward is the answer.
As far as I’m aware, they have not discontinued 2024 mechanical XT or SLX (same as you can still buy 11 speed) but new 2025 stuff is wireless only, so it’s just that there is no updated mechanical.
seems nuts to me that theres no mechanical options above deore, in fact I cant believe that shimano would be that stupid!
As far as I’m aware, they have not discontinued 2024 mechanical XT or SLX (same as you can still buy 11 speed) but new 2025 stuff is wireless only, so it’s just that there is no updated mechanical.
Presumably they will eventually stop manufacturing 2024 kit though, unless models years are completely meaningless.
Model years are pointless with Shimano. I think XTR used to have something like a 7 year product cycles.
Rubbish, I still haven't made my way up to XTR! Guess I'd better get on it before it all sells out....
Presumably they will eventually stop manufacturing 2024 kit though, unless models years are completely meaningless.
you can still buy new 10 speed stuff.
its a drive train, everything possibly bar the shifter is either a wear or damage replacement part.
Dont expect to see older model years stuff specced on new bikes though.
SLX is gone because they made deore too good. scope creep or a desire to be better than the outgoing model? I've got 10spd XT on my hardtail. I've had a go on 12spd deore. The deore I'd say is better.
Saying you are sad SLX is gone because you determined it was the pinnacle of cost/benefit in 1999 isn't a great way of speccing a new bike in 2025.
My biggest takeaway from both this, and Sram's Transmission, is that this is the second full generation with 12 speeds, and ~500% range. I guess while roadies might still be arguing 1x vs 2x and in-gear 2 speed hubs and 13 speeds and shift gaps etc we mtbers have collectively determined that this is enough?
I Wii reserve my outrage for when they actually drop it. There might be another mechanical iteration, there might not
Model years are pointless with Shimano. I think XTR used to have something like a 7 year product cycles.
Does that mean no need to panic buy spare 12 speed XT mechs and shifters?
I don't have the funds for electric and am not a fan of SRAM.
Saying you are sad SLX is gone because you determined it was the pinnacle of cost/benefit in 1999 isn't a great way of speccing a new bike in 2025.
its the pinnacle now, find me better vfm cranks than SLX- I actually think thats why its been ditched, there was no reason to buy xt cranks when weight & performance are virtually identical to slx
As new groupsets to sell to OEMs and fit to complete bikes, I do understand having less rungs in the ladder and just pushing the manufacturers to spec either Deore on base builds or XT on higher end. SLX for me has felt a bit redundant for a while really as a consumer that normally builds from frames (I just mix & match Deore/XT depending on value/price goals for the bike).
What concerns me is the potential that in a few years time you'll only be able to buy frames that don't have the option to self-build as mechanical but I think that's a while away depending on your taste in bikes. If you like a steel hardtail for example you're probably safe indefinitely, if you want to buy a light XC/Trail bike it's probably a lot closer to being unavoidable.
Saying you are sad SLX is gone because you determined it was the pinnacle of cost/benefit in 1999 isn't a great way of speccing a new bike in 2025.
Pedant mode: It was still LX in 1999, and 9 speed. SLX only came out a few years later with 10 speed IIRC...
Didn't people on here rant about roadies not wanting to have disc brakes? Long cranks? Riser bars? The death of bar ends? 26" wheels? Square taper bottom brackets? Straight steerer forks? Holy cow.
Shimano have been asleep at the wheel for so long that I've stopped paying attention.
My old XT shifter and mech will last until my hip finally lets go and I'll ride whatever comes on the e-bike I buy. Hopefully a gearbox.
There was a previous thread about this.
Is it really necessary to start another one?
I've always liked SLX but I think that draws from the fact that it used to be the entry level into more gravity focused stuff. You had LX and then XT/XTR which got lighter and more race/xc focused as you spent more money.
There was Saint for hardcore stuff and SLX kind of bridged the gap between LX and Saint. You got clutched rear mech that wasn't available on LX and could get a double chainset without spending Saint money.
It was genuinely better than the lower level stuff and not as good as the upper level.
Now, the only real difference between Deore, SLX and XT is a few grams and a nicer finish. SLX is anodised and Deore is painted. Does it really matter when it all rubs off the cranks anyway and the rear mech bend as soon as you ride near a rock?
They've made the cheap stuff so good that unless you're a tart, there's no point buying XT (said as a tart who likes XT).
I've got XT brakes on my HT and Deore on my ebike. Other than tool free reach adjust, there's no noticeable difference. The Deore can still accept the finned pads so why buy XT again? Why bother with SLX at all.
I can see why they would discontinue it. It doesnt really need to exist.
Moving to wireless everything though is daft. Unless they get the price down to the same as mechanical stuff, I'll never buy it.
Since adopting 12sp, I'm averaging a new mech every 6 months per bike (or at least new cages and jockey wheels). No effing way I'm way I'm spending £300+ on a new mech.
Bring back exage trail and exage country, proper names not just a selection of characters
So this will be a future collectors item then ?
SLX became redundant when XT got cheaper and Deore got better. Too many rungs in the ladder, easy to take that one out.
XTR has always been the ultra-lightweight XC racer groupset in my eyes. Pricey, light, not something you'd want getting bashed on a rowdy bike. XT has all the functionality of XTR but is made of slightly more robust (ergo heavier) material. The same way X01 and XX1 work with SRAM.
So now you have XTR for racers and gram-counters, XT for trail riders, Deore for price-conscious but still wanting something not too heavy that performs well, and CUES (gotta put it all in caps like Shimano does 😀 ) for casual riders.
I'm a big fan of CUES / Linkglide for novice rider builds because it lasts a long time and takes a beating, although there's so many SKUs going on in hat segment with all the 9/10/11 speed variations that if Shimano set out to tidy up the overlap between all the Tourney, Acera, Alivio etc stuff then all they've done is replace one mess with another.
So now you have XTR for racers and gram-counters, XT for trail riders,
yeah the problem is xt* no longer exists , so what do trail riders buy?
* non di2 anyway
Used to have 3 levels of Exage, then LX, DX, XT, XTR. Bring back DX!
But it does exist. It’s not hard a 2025 update
yes but its now 6? years old and im sure its as good as ever, but how many bikes will it be specced on? , will product managers think a 6 yr old groupset will be as desirable as SRAMs new mechanical Transmission 70 or 90 ?
Even as a lifelong Shimano fan I only have a XT 12 speed chainset left (with a Works Comp chain ring) on my bike as I really like HT2 and dislike DUB.
But the rest is SRAM.
I find SRAM more exciting and innovative and I really like the shifting despite lacking the HG+ thing.
The cassettes alone from GX up are worth it.
It's hard to admit but I find that Shimano have been left behind a bit...
Brake wise TRP are a smarter solution too for me.
XT cable pull still exists. And will do for another 10 years at least. Happy to place a bet on it if anyone fancies it? SLX has been eyed up as end of line for a while now, it’ll be sad to see it go, but as others have said Deore is to so good now that having another option between it and XT makes little sense now.
XT cable pull still exists. And will do for another 10 years at least. Happy to place a bet on it if anyone fancies it? SLX has been eyed up as end of line for a while now, it’ll be sad to see it go, but as others have said Deore is to so good now that having another option between it and XT makes little sense now. People will miss it for a year or two, then not care. See also LX, DX, STX etc.
[ SLX chainsets currently the wise option for all builds, grab them while they’re cheap ]
As an e-biker, I’d like to see shimano offer an 11 speed alfine hub that’s compatible with 142mm axles.
Shimano already makes an e-shifter for alfine 11?
be nice to change all the way down if you flub it on an incline.
or n traffic, etc.
Lifespan of alfine11 on an ebike would be measured in minutes.
I'm still buying every M780 shifter I can find for sensible money. The ability to change multiple gears in one lever sweep is glorious.
1993 LX, that aped M900 XTR was so good it saw off Deore DX (and thumbies 😪 ), SLX made LX redundant in the mid to late 2000's. Same as it ever was.
STX-RC looked pretty with the fancy smoked finish. When did they drop STX? 1993 Exage was nice too, or at least the crank was.
I imagine a lot of this is driven by the market? Can't think the manufactures sell many top end normal bikes with XT or XTR with the sales going to E-Bikes? I guess in the higher end E-Bike market the buyers are happy to suck up the extra cost? Ultimately they're the ones with the data as to what the market wants.
I had dx thumbies with stx mechs and LX cranks I think bitd. All on a bonded aluminium mongoose iboc comp frameset with P2 forks. Mavic something rims on LX hubs. Anyway all the Shimano stuff was great.
i mean, what do you need as an update for a 2025 model xt/xtr with cables? tweaked shifter and derailleur?
you can use all the rest, crank, chainring, chain, brakes, cassette from the wireless groupset. if so desired. And they have all had significant revisions (maybe not the chain?)
i mean, what do you need as an update for a 2025 model xt/xtr with cables? tweaked shifter and derailleur?
you can use all the rest, crank, chainring, chain, brakes, cassette from the wireless groupset. if so desired. And they have all had significant revisions (maybe not the chain?)
That's a very good point tbf.
i mean, what do you need as an update for a 2025 model xt/xtr with cables? tweaked shifter and derailleur?
you can use all the rest, crank, chainring, chain, brakes, cassette from the wireless groupset. if so desired. And they have all had significant revisions (maybe not the chain?)
Its more just a concern that it’s signposting their intention to move away from offering high end mechanical drivetrains which is a shame to me.
I appreciate there is little room left for innovation and progress with them now, but I want to be able to buy off the shelf mountain bikes in the future that come with mechanical shifting that isn’t low end and this to me indicates that we’re moving away from that, lowering choice for consumers.
The derailleur is a concept that should have been taken out and shot several years ago, but you can do what the manufacturers have done and push the number of gears and cog sizes to.the point where future moves in these directions will become difficult.
Then you introduce as much wireless crap as you can.
The objective should have been to develope hub gears and gearboxes.
The derailleur is a concept that should have been taken out and shot several years ago
Blah, blah, blah... gearbox and hubbed bikes are out there... ride one if you want... people don't buy them in huge numbers because derailleur gears are far more efficient and pleasant to use. Shimano have been making hub gears for decades now.
Its more just a concern that it’s signposting their intention to move away from offering high end mechanical drivetrains which is a shame to me.
I have no idea why people read the announcements this way. Until Shimano say XT cable gears are done with, which I can't imagine happening anytime soon, there is no "signpost" that they intend to do stop offering it. Relax.
And less reliable etc etc . How happy are people going to be when clipping a derailleur on a rock trashes expensive rear mechs.
How happy are people going to be when clipping a derailleur on a rock trashes expensive rear mechs.
That's the main thing - cost - putting me off wireless drivetrains. I'm not in the habit of ****ting mechs off rocks too often but I'd properly cry if I did that with anything more than my current 12sp Deore/SLX/XT ones.
Buy a cheap rear mech then. Deore cable pull on mine. Not that I've wrecked one since "Shadow" mechs came along.
its the pinnacle now, find me better vfm cranks than SLX- I actually think thats why its been ditched, there was no reason to buy xt cranks when weight & performance are virtually identical to slx
I don't think there's any argument about that.
I just had a look and the cheapest M6100 chainset on google is £75. The cheapest M8100 is £75. There might be odd crank lengths or chainring sizes involved but I'm not sure that even the few quid extra for a different crank length justifies why people are upset that the 3rd option in between £75 and £75 has gone. The trouble for shimano is their cranks have always been such good value. GX is ~£150 online and tech wise is on a Deore level! I'm surprised they haven't made some effort to make XT a £200 crank to bridge the gap between £75 deore and £300 XTR, it'd make the whole groupset look even lighter as well (not that XT cranks aren't light already).
I reckon there will be a mechanical XT next year. They did this with 105 on the road, it was just more obvious because it was 12s as well. They put the R&D into 105-Di2 as a group set, then brought out the mechanical mechs and shifters 12months later. Someone said "won't someone please think of the poor product managers", they've got it far easier than their roadie colleagues, they ended up with 12 months of 11s 105 bikes they couldn't shift because everyone knew 12s was around the corner.
But it does exist. It’s not had a 2025 update.
Infact M8200 mechanical would be the simplest product development even for shimano, there's no front mech to do, update the logo on the shifter, it's just a new rear mech! In the meantime I would assume bikes might still come with mostly M8200 bits, apart form the shifter+mech?
Maybe electric single speed might be a better direction. Especially as I was cycling uphill behind a bloke on an ebike yesterday who was using one of the smallest cogs at the back and was moving only slightly faster than me on a bicycle.
From what I’ve read here the threat is from the market for complete bikes. Presumably most groupsets are sold as part of complete bikes? I can see the market polarising into the heavier Deore build vs the high end electronic shifting bike. If that’s what the market wants then why make high end mechanical groupsets?
I imagine a lot of this is driven by the market?
My thinking it's cheaper and stronger to build frames without holes in, then not have to feed cables through. Stuff like 1x was likely driven partly by that (remove front mech, save weight) but also because Shimano front shifting was very good, and SRAM likely decided to move the goalposts. SRAM is much better at marketing than Shimano.
I suspect xt will get an update at some point. Shimano weren’t going to anything alongside the wireless groupers to keep the focus on them. In the meantime I will try and think what could be improved. The only thing I can think of is to copy the little button on sram mechs that holds the pulley wheels away from the body when taking the wheel out. It’s no doubt subject to patent but I’m sure an alternative could be found
Electronic mechs are built to be much more protected from impacts than mechanical ones, with internal clutches/recovery etc. IME they're far less likely to be written off by an impact.
Add in UDH hangers which rotate back during an impact, and I'd wager that a UDH+Di2 mech is way more robust than a normal mechanical mech.
I’m a teacher. I can remember a student telling me that they were building a 1x bike in the 1990s. I’ve seen loads of bikes converted to 1x. We had kits with longer cages and larger sprockets . I’d say 1x is consumer driven.
Electronic shifting isn’t ledin that way. But I’d say that the typical buyer of a high end bike is looking to got electronic shifting. Not all but enough to sway it.
Add in UDH hangers which rotate back during an impact, and I'd wager that a UDH+Di2 mech is way more robust than a normal mechanical mech.
I wouldn't disagree. You only have to look at a new transmission mech next to a 90s XT to see they're built to do very different things in a crash.
But then you have to do a likelihood x severity calculation.
I smack my £20 deore mech into a rock 100 times, it breaks 20 of them, the cost over several lifetimes of riding is ~£400.
I smack my Di2 mech into a rock 100 times, it breaks just once, it's cost me £400.
Judging by the state of my mech, it's hit a lot more than 5 rocks so I'm confident my 20/100 kill rate is probably overly pessimistic. Who wants to smack their £400 mech into a rock 100 times to see if that's equally valid?
My thinking it's cheaper and stronger to build frames without holes in, then not have to feed cables through.
It's one less step on the assembly line, which is great if it's a cost neutral swap (e.g. centerlock vs 6-bolt), doesn't really work in this case as it doesn't cost them hundreds of dollars to thread some cables.
I'm not convinced by the more holes = weaker argument, but that was done to death in it's own thread.
The R&D budget wouldn’t cover development of the new wireless and new mechanical at the same time, rather sensible really.
I’d suspect they are currently working on an update to the mechanical system, it’s not exactly their first rodeo.
Woah.. hold on. Trad wired XT is still available and there are no moves from Shimano to discontinue it, it will get a refresh in time.
There was both STX, and STX-RC which was slightly less poor quality.
Trad wired XT is still available and there are no moves from Shimano to discontinue it, it will get a refresh in time.
It would be really great if Shimano just came out and said you know what we think we've got this just as good as it ever needs to be so we are just going to keep on making it without changing it just as long as you are willing to buy it.
You only have to look at a new transmission mech next to a 90s XT to see they're built to do very different things in a crash.
I think transmission is less about surviving crashes and much more about avoiding slight bends in hangers - because 12 mechs are so long and cassettes are so big, the effect of any slight misalignment is multiplied. Was one of the first things I noticed with 12s, so easy to get it out of line. Transmission cured this problem, but it's a problem that 12 speed created.
"Time to move to Microshift."
I've only used one Microshift cassette but it was so soft that my patented "pedalling my ebike like it's my singlespeed" technique wrecked it in 200 miles...
