[Closed] Severe pedantry

Traction - the grip of a tyre on a road

I'm not sure this is going to go too well for you

Are magazine journalists considered authors?

Seems you're making a big deal out of this - get a traction man!

Traction – the grip of a tyre on a road

I’m not sure this is going to go too well for you

Where on earth did you get that definition from?

Leave it mashr,you'll just create unnecessary friction.

https://www.google.com/search?q=traction+definition

fasthaggis

Member

Leave it mashr,you’ll just create unnecessary friction.

🙂 I'll let it slip by this time then

I feel like a system of weights and pulleys could be useful here...

I think that there is a large amount of overlap where mtbing is concerned.

I think the OP may be on a slippery slope with this subject.

I used to say it a lot, but now, thanks to the OP, I'm an ex-traction fan.

there is a large amount of overlap where mtbing is concerned.

Graction?

You suck Martin 😉

Martin, that joke is breathtakingly bad.

Maybe, but I believe that, with a wider audience, it will gain traction.

Good to see people getting to grips with this subject,but remember,you have to take the rough with the smooth.

I will now step back from the podium

A podium is the thing you stand on. A lecturn is the thing you stand behind when you are making a speech.

PLEASE can everyone (mag article authors included) stop saying “traction”

Mag article authors don't say, they write.

A podium is the thing you stand on. A lecturn is the thing you stand behind when you are making a speech.

We could argue about that for dais and dais.

I think you mean debate, not argue.

We could argue about that for dais and dais.

Yes, but someone has to make a stand against this kind of mistake.

A lecturn is the thing

I hate to lecture, but 'lectern'.

I thought traction was pulling effort as in traction engine? Not the same as grip at all.

Putting aside the puns for a moment – traction is the ability to deliver acceleration by applying force against a surface, e.g. a driving wheel’s tyre against the road surface. However, some people use traction and grip interchangeably. I’ve seen the phrase “front wheel traction” more than once.

I’m all for language evolving over time as long as the message is clear, but when reading a tyre review, for example, “grip” and “traction” are two very different characteristics. Nuance is important.

This is true, especially when we're geeks comparing two rubber rings.

For example as an engineer I wince inwardly when people (including my own kids) say "tough" and "hard" interchangeably, when they're different properties that typically you experience a trade off between. But I don't bother too much as I understand the wider meaning, but know my engineer mates will use the correct term when necessary.

With a tyre, though, is there likely to be much difference between lateral grip and traction? (I get the pedantry, but...)

philjunior

Member
…...
With a tyre, though, is there likely to be much difference between lateral grip and traction? (I get the pedantry, but…)

When the rubber meets the road, it depends how much effort you want to put in.

It's a word that has more than one meaning....

When these 'journos' refer to traction, I doubt they mean:

"the application of a sustained pull on a limb or muscle, especially in order to maintain the position of a fractured bone or to correct a deformity."

they more likely mean:

"the grip of a tyre on a road or a wheel on a rail."

In a similar vein when the same 'journos' review a stem, they probably aren't talking about:

"the main body or stalk of a plant or shrub, typically rising above ground but occasionally subterranean."

or a hub:

"the effective centre of an activity, region, or network."

Grip is lateral.
Traction is longitudinal.

But people commonly use one for the other.

The ideal is to visualise a traction circle (even that name is partially wrong of course) to understand how the two are related and that their sum constitutes the total friction available through a tyre, irrespective of the distribution between the 2 axis.

I fought to purchase enough traction on the ride last night.

traction is the ability to deliver acceleration by applying force against a surface,

just taking this as a definition on its merits, it doesn't preclude traction being used for steering and cornering grip.

Acceleration is the rate of change of velocity. Velocity is speed with direction. if you change direction, there will be an acceleration in that direction, by applying force against the dirt, via the side knobs. Better grip = more side "traction". If you don't need to make any changes of velocity, you don't need any grip.

But traction is about pulling, not acceleration. Ploughing a furrow doesn't involve a lot of changes in speed.

With a tyre, though, is there likely to be much difference between lateral grip and traction? (I get the pedantry, but…)

Yes. Traction for tyre purchase when pedalling. Grip as a general term for stickiness, including cornering and braking.

Grip is lateral.
Traction is longitudinal

Anything behind that or just the way you use it?

I'd use grip when it comes to lateral (cornering) grip, and traction when it comes to climbing/braking, but they're essentially the same thing

I think that there is a large amount of overlap where mtbing is concerned.

not so much now head angles are so slack. More likely to catch your toes on a CX bike

A grip is a component fitted to the end of a handlebar.

Traction is not a bicycle component and can not be fitted to a handlebar.

When riding I often hear shouts of "Get a grip".

Is this thread been made sticky yet?

Harking back to an engineering degree in my distant past, my understanding of the term is this:

Traction is the ability to push or pull something by way of delivering power to a surface. In the case of a wheel, such power can only be delivered longitudinally, and a tyre provides (for) traction by way of longitudinal grip. A tyre doesn’t “have” traction, but it delivers it, and only longitudinally.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traction_(engineering)

Grip is lateral.
Traction is longitudinal

Anything behind that or just the way you use it?

I would have thought common knowledge and basic physics but clearly not (joke).

Just Google "traction circle" and you will see 2 axis, one horizontal for lateral acceleration (grip or lateral grip) and one vertical for longitudinal acceleration (traction).

When you steer you rely on lateral grip and when you push on the pedals or brake you rely on traction. The traction circle visualizes everything in between as the two overlap, when you steer on the brakes for instance.

Total friction is a mix between the two. If you use all the available front wheel friction under intense braking that's usually why you will fall off your bike if you try to use lateral grip by steering at the same time, because there is none left and you overstepped the circle.

When these ‘journos’ refer to traction, I doubt they mean … they more likely mean: …
In a similar vein when the same ‘journos’ review a stem, they probably aren’t talking about…
or a hub…

Yeah, but context is everything. If I come up with an idea for a knowledge hub about stem cells, which then gains traction, the meanings are clear from the context.

If the context is vehicle dynamics, which a tyre review is, then "traction" has a well-established and specific meaning within that context, and it's got absolutely nothing at all to do with how well a front tyre goes round a corner.

wardee

Member

A grip is a component fitted to the end of a handlebar.

Sounds like a bar plug

Just Google “traction circle” and you will see 2 axis, one horizontal for lateral acceleration (grip or lateral grip) and one vertical for longitudinal acceleration (traction).

Very quick google showed nothing saying traction of longitudinal and grip is lateral

Well how would 'sideways traction' be generated then?

Reminds me of the maxim that I first encountered on a Quattro owners' forum ref driving in snow and ice:

"4 x 0 = 0".

ie just cause you can go forwards on the throttle (relying on the greater mechanical traction afforded by four-wheel drive), doesn't mean you're going to stop on the brake (your tyres have no more grip than anyone else's).

eh?

I'd say if your tyres grip enough to allow you to accelerate, they grip enough to allow you to decelerate.

Perhaps the tyres are directional .

The thing with 4WD here is that some people probably go from 2WD to 4WD and think it has more grip, which it doesn’t: it has better traction because it can deliver power through four wheels and multiple differentials, but when it comes to braking (and to a reasonable degree cornering) it works exactly the same as a 2WD car.

In other words, you can have two cars which are identical—tyres included—except for having different drivetrains, and one will have more traction but they will both have exactly the same amount of grip.

The point being that if you think traction and grip are the same thing, then the greater traction of 4WD is going to bite you in the arse.

I’d say if your tyres grip enough to allow you to accelerate, they grip enough to allow you to decelerate.

The sort of mistake you only need to make in real life once to understand 🙂

Surely steering and braking are still acceleration, it's just the vector/sign are different? 😛

The point being that if you think traction and grip are the same thing, then the greater traction of 4WD is going to bite you in the arse.

Couldn't the traction and grip be identical in absolute magnitude, it's just the problem is traction control caps your acceleration to the available traction/grip whereas in the case of braking/steering the traction/grip available is insufficient to provide the required acceleration to avoid a collision...

edit - still agree it will bite you in the arse, just questioning whether they necessarily would have different magnitudes

I think the thing with 4WD is that, depending on how it is implemented, it distributes the load across four tyres, so the driver is less likely to exceed the grip levels of any single tyre. If the diffs are locked, then it will prevent one wheel from locking up under braking, so it redistributes the braking load between the front and rear axles. The same applies with wheelspin through corners, so you are less likely to have one wheel exceed the available grip while the others don't, so you can use all the available grip whereas a regular car is limited by one axle losing grip. Obviously, 4WD systems are extremely complex because a fully locked system would understeer like a pig, but the basic principle applies.

it’s just the problem is traction control caps your acceleration to the available traction/grip

Um, cars didn't always have traction control (millennial alert! 😉 ).

I'm so proud that this has descended into a good-mannered technical discussion AND a pun war. Well done team.

Dorset_Knob

Member

Well how would ‘sideways traction’ be generated then?

Cornering (not 100% sideways of course)

.

Next time you get on your bike, try and set off sideways. You can’t:

You can: Side hop.

Edit:

Bez's edit:

.

Presumably he's just remembered about sidehops and is now thinking...

Yet a bike with forward motion can lean over (or be steered), causing an acceleration force to be generated laterally. If traction cant go sideways then why is the circle of traction a circle?

I'll be honest, I'm mostly playing whilst also genuinely wondering about this as its been a loonggg time since i've looked at anything along these lines

That’s not traction. The engineering definition of traction has been given/linked several times.

From here:

a physical process in which a tangential force is transmitted across an interface between two bodies through dry friction or an intervening fluid film resulting in motion, stoppage or the transmission of power.
— Mechanical Wear Fundamentals and Testing, Raymond George Bayer

and

In the design of wheeled or tracked vehicles, high traction between wheel and ground is more desirable than low traction, as it allows for higher acceleration (including cornering and braking) without wheel slippage.

I'm sorry, I'm not sure why I'm arguing this!

goes back to the same point: a tyre does not have traction on it's own. Traction is force delivered to move something along. A tyre can enable that force to be delivered, based on its tread, compound pressure, footprint, the surface it's acting against and what it's being asked to move.

given a fat slick on grippy tarmac, the tyre's footprint on the tarmac at any one time can be pushed agaisnt in any direction, the grip's the same.

The ability to apply force through the tyre by pedaling v. by sidehopping has got nothing to do with the patch of tyre in contact with the road in any instant and everything to do with the rest of the bicycle and rider that isn't in contact with the road.

I’m sorry, I’m not sure why I’m arguing this!

You bloody do!

Severe pedantry

It's sitting there in bold, an inch away from the box you're typing in!

😀

Presumably he’s just remembered about sidehops and is now thinking…

Mostly I was just regretting it all having gone beyond the pun stage, so figured best to just walk away out of shear boredom.

I will now step back from the podium.

Surely you step down from a podium?

At the end of the day WGAF, 16stonepig if that's your main gripe in life then you are truly blessed, but for the 16 stone pig thing. 🐖😊.

When I was young the local bus company was called Yorkshire Traction, the famous or infamous 'Traccy buses' which carted us to and from skule and to the saturday matinee in town, Yorkshire Grip just hasn't got the same ring to it , that's all

Isn’t the Yorkshire Grip a technique for holding a wallet without it ever falling open? 😉

Arr reyt enuff, and back to pedants corner we go.......

Our we could open the door to pedantry pantry...

So do unicycles have traction, but no grip then?

Do planes on a conveyor belt have grip but no traction?

What about a unicycle on a conveyor belt?

Oops
Isn’t it “sheer” boredom?

Isn’t it “sheer” boredom?

Not on Planet Pun it isn't. An unappreciated gem, that one.

I liked it.