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Following on from a thread on Pistonheads aboout seriously overpriced cars and just seeing a On-One 456 Summer Season for sale on eBay for sale for £1250, what massively overpriced bikes have you see out there (FWIW I had to break my 456 SS about 10 years ago as there was no interest in and ended up scraping about £400 for a reasonable specced bike!).
Santa Cruz.
Lights the blue touchpaper, and runs
Anything with a motor, all seem to last a few months and then need a new motor or battery.
Santa Cruz.
It's hard to argue though isn't it. They're insanely expensive for what they are.
Not a bike, but this chainguide is currently on clearance at CRC for just €148.49. That's 19% off the frankly insane €182.99 RRP.
The top-end specialized bikes. Their lower levels of each model are expensive but not wildly more than other big brands; then the s-works bikes are crazy money. e.g crux expert (top of the normal range) £4249; S-works Crux £8249.
I lust after them so much though... even worse I'd need two!
Every other bike in the classifieds.
Every other bike in the classifieds
Ain't that the truth.
On a similar theme, most 'gravel' or CX bikes on Facebook groups.
#OnTrendPremium
The cost of brake pads is what always amazes me. I have a motorbike that apparently is capable of over 180mph but the brake pads for that are less than I spend on my pushbike, and last a lot longer too.
It’s hard to argue though isn’t it. They’re insanely expensive for what they are.
There's a Hightower in Pinkbike's value, sub $3000, bike grouptest at the moment. I agree the top of the range ones are silly money, but that's not all they offer.
+1 on S-works full bikes. You can buy the frames separately then build the same spec, at RRP or close to it, and still come out cheaper. (or you could when i last looked into it, and prices have gone up since then.)
I have a Trek Remedy which I love and have been using for a good few years now. But new, they were something absolutely demented like £3800, in 2015. The spec was alright, but really nothing to get excited about- pretty basic wheels, XT, stuff like that. Really not sure if anyone bought them at that price.
I think if you did a graph of the performance of bikes over the last 30 year that were sold for an inflation adjusted £1k in 2020 money you Would see a huge leap in value and capability of the humble ride.
If you then did a graph of the price of the average highest priced bike in the range of say the top 6 selling brands adjusted for inflation over the same time period you would see it is possible to spend a hell of a lot more now than it was in years past.
No sure what that says - the need to spend more has never been so unnecessary but the demand is there more than ever (or they would go to the trouble of getting them to market). Probably bad things about the 21st century consumerism problem.
Pivot is another with crazy prices..
£3.5k for the 429 Trail vs eg Intense Primer 29 £2.6k - both frame only..
Anything by Salsa.
Sick cycles frames probably the most expensive waste of money for nothing to show for it
Makes an santa cruz seem a worthwhile buy - at least you'll receive an actual physical item
+1 on Salsa
My bro still rocking a gen 1 SpearFish
Oh & Rocky Mountain again my other bro rocking an old vertex
Pivot is another with crazy prices..
£3.5k for the 429 Trail vs eg Intense Primer 29 £2.6k – both frame only..
Both with completely different business models.
Surly.
I love Surly bikes, but the prices are insulting.
The new S-works Enduro is about 9 grand. Multiple reviewers have pointed out that you can buy the (also very expensive) frame and all the components to build the exact same bike for less. And that's assuming you're mad enough to pay rrp for bike parts.
Again, just a component but these are utter madness - https://cyclingtips.com/2020/02/spengle-gold-wheels/
Salsa are hideously expensive, stunning bikes but my goodness!
S-Works have always been top end cash but once you start to look at the top tier Road frame only builds over 10k is easy to do!!
Cotic FS always strike me as being pretty pricey. Not ridiculous, but still.
Again, just a component but these are utter madness –
Have any actually sold, or is it just a publicity stunt? The ones that aren’t gold plated aren’t cheap, but at £850 a pair, they cost less than one enve rim. Speaking of which...
Both with completely different business models.
& which model do you think offers better VFM?
Having owned & ridden both makes - I know where my money goes.....
The cost of brake pads is what always amazes me. I have a motorbike that apparently is capable of over 180mph but the brake pads for that are less than I spend on my pushbike, and last a lot longer too.
brake pads - I would have thought very little of the finished cost is materials - and every other cost will be the same for a big or a small pad. also economies of scale. Far more brembo motorccyle brakes than hope bicycle brakes being sold worldwide. Same for Japanese stuff. How many pairs of bicycle brakes compared to motorcycle?
Ha Ha about brake pads that one has amazed me for years two pairs of pads for a trials bike under £18 say a GAS GAS yet you cant get one set of Avids or Hope for that.
Has that Forestal thing been mentioned yet?
I have a Salsa bike and even though its at the lower end it still really well made, rides fantastically well and has none of the 'they won't notice if we just stick a cheap component here' bollox that so many brands try to get away with.
i.e the BB is higher spec than the crank, bolt through are DT swiss, rims are expensive etc etc
Salsa are continually at the cutting edge of design whereas plenty of bigger firms just jump on a bandwagon when its clear its going to be a success.
So I disagree that they are seriously overpriced.
salad_dodger
SubscriberThe cost of brake pads is what always amazes me. I have a motorbike that apparently is capable of over 180mph but the brake pads for that are less than I spend on my pushbike, and last a lot longer too.
To be fair, you're buying damn expensive bike pads then! £24 for 4 pairs of Discobrakes kevlars which are perfectly good.
(I buy mine from aliexpress, $9 for 4 pairs of Bikein ceramics... They actually work great, I used 'em for the Mega among other stuff)
Nobeerinthefridge
MemberCotic FS always strike me as being pretty pricey. Not ridiculous, but still.
They're not cheap, but otoh they're made just along the road from me so that's definitely a good thing
Specialized S works always spring to mind but take a look at other manufactures top end and most are stupid prices, Cannondale Super Six Evo £9000, SCOTT Addict RC ultimate £10,799.00
I have a Trek Remedy which I love and have been using for a good few years now. But new, they were something absolutely demented like £3800,
It didn't cost me anywhere near that when it was new. 😁
Anything cycling related nowadays - ive ridden mtb’s since the late 80’s and despite earning a good wage nowadays (for the moment) I’ve turned my back on Mtb’s due to getting screwed cost wise.
I sold mine whilst they were still worth something - ive kept my worthless Transition Klunker, and my 5 year old gravel/commuter.
Im not interested in low end crap groupsets or suspension without adjustment.
That's because you (and I) bought the sane one! The shiny one was mental
Having owned & ridden both makes – I know where my money goes….
Not those specific bikes, but I’ve owned an Intense and a Pivot, I ain’t buying another Intense.
+1 for S-Works stuff. I was bored a while ago and totted up the cost of me buying the same parts (or better in some cases) at RRP to add to one of their S-Works frames and it was less than Specialized where charging for a complete bike with presumably decent discounts for bulk purchases.
+1 for S-Works stuff.
There's a definite theme going on in here... Can't say I disagree! A slight change in the fibre layup in the frame (on the same mould), and slightly better components, do not justify a doubling in price!
The S-Works "Founders Edition" Levo SL is £12.5k FFS! Some might find that rich coming from someone riding an Evil MTB and a Colnago road bike, but the Spesh S-Works price justifications (or lack of them) stagger me! Same goes for Trek "Project One" stuff whilst we're at it...
Different strokes for different folks isn’t it? They wouldn’t build the s works completes if people weren’t buying them so clearly someone is. And that someone might have muchos cashola and not blink about spending 11k on a pushiron. In addition, the likelihood of the same person spending hours on Bike24 and similar finding who has the cheapest Red AXS rear mech is slim.
The price of forks amazes me these days. I’m currently rebuilding my Remedy and after some decent 29er forks. Anything upwards of £600 seems to be the going rate. In most cases, £700+. Now I’ve never considered myself tight but that seems like mental money
Only thing Intense had going for them was their paint colours jobs on their alloy range
Cotic FS always strike me as being pretty pricey. Not ridiculous, but still.
They’re not cheap, but otoh they’re made just along the road from me so that’s definitely a good thing
Yup, new frames are being painted by Fiveland too, thats the price of buying local.
Same goes for Trek “Project One” stuff whilst we’re at it…
At least with P1 stuff you can get something unique, paint wise.
Yup, new frames are being painted by Fiveland too, thats the price of buying local.
My bad, I was referring more to build costs. Frames didn't seem too bad IIRC, but tbh it's a while since I priced one up.
Fox 36's.
When you are over £1000 for a fork something is not right.
They are the best though.
Orange!
Why don't they do a direct sell business model like Bird?
In 2018 I bought a Genesis Fugio with Apex groupset for £1200.
In 2020 I bought a Genesis Fugio with GRX groupset for £2600.
Take away the cost of the apex group and add the cost of the GRX and I`ve just paid £1100 for a fancy paintjob! Still love it though and would buy another tomorrow.
Shopping for a new road bike recently, it's amazing how many £3-4k bikes have average kit on them, and then you seem to pay another £2-3k for the frame to be "hi-mod" and to get a nice set of wheels.
Mug tax I presume.
Orange!
I guess it's working for them but I'd like to see them a bit more accessible again.
To be fair, the frames are deceptively sophisticated in terms of both construction and weight/speed - so in functional terms I think they are comparable to a lot of carbon bikes.
But the full builds have always taken the piss a bit and I've heard the frame prices are still heading north.
as long as the golden goose keeps laying those golden eggs.....
It's to make the cheaper stuff look better value while hyping up the value of the brand.
If the s works is £10,000 the entry carbon with the same geometry looks great value at £2,500.
The finance also looks amazing. I could have that for £10,000 or something similar for £300 a month.
See my mate who bought an Audi S4. His justification was I almost bought an RS4, so the S4 was sensible. (Waves at Mark if he's reading)
2018 RS4- £61,000
2020 S4-£48,000
2020 A4- £30,000
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halo_effect#Branding
Its the same as me buying a Omega when I was 20. How much did I know about watches? How many 90's bond films had I watched with significant product placement?
Regarding the S-Works stuff, I would guess they sell a couple at full RRP and most of the rest at mates rates / sponsorship deals, then discounted to the public at year end.
As above, definitely a "halo" product with a bit of "aspirational" pricing. Two terms I ****ing hate.
I've never understood why some road bikes are so expensive.
A mountain bike often has multiple complex suspension components. Complex frames involving bearings and pivots, hydraulic brakes and seatposts.
A road bike is a rigid hardtail with fancy bars. A top end road bike can be a lovely thing, but its inherently less complex than a mountain bike.
Perhaps it's partially because sponsorship of the road side of the sport is much more costly?
Mostly probably just what the market will bear though.
Regarding the S-Works stuff, I would guess they sell a couple at full RRP
I'm willing to bet your money that Spesh probably sell a metric shit tonne* of S-works bikes every year, and I'll also place a side bet on them being their most profitable range.
*although it's probably an Imperial shit ton, what with them being from 'merica...natch
I’ve never understood why some road bikes are so expensive.
So much this. And not just that they are so expensive, that it's so hard to tell the difference. I get noticeable benefits from more expensive components on a mountain bike - they're not just a little bit lighter and better finished, they usually genuinely work better when it comes to forks, shocks, brakes (even if it's the ability to get the lever and bite point where you want it), wheels, even grips. A relatively unskilled rider can have more fun and comfort on a better bike.
Road bikes not so much - I've ridden some expensive road bikes and really didn't notice any significant difference for the sort of casual riding I do and I find it hard to believe that even racing at an amateur level theres a lot of benefit.
Can't remember what it was but an ad popped up the other day for an £8k hardtail.
I can't imagine spending that much on a bike with no bounce and a short travel fork.
Guess I'm not a race whippet though.
https://www.specializedconceptstore.co.uk/product/11727/2018-enduro-pro-29-6fattie/
https://www.specializedconceptstore.co.uk/product/13799/2019-s-works-enduro-29/
https://www.specializedconceptstore.co.uk/product/11739/2018-s-works-enduro-29-6fattie/
The discounting at end of year at specialized does question the markup and how overpriced the bike industry is. There is a race to the top for who can have the most expensive bike/component.
https://www.ktm.com/gb/mx/450-sx-f-factory-edition/ >>>>>> £9250
https://www.specializedconceptstore.co.uk/product/15187/2020-s-works-venge-di2-sagan-collection-ltd/ >>>>>> £10250
So much this. And not just that they are so expensive, that it’s so hard to tell the difference. I get noticeable benefits from more expensive components on a mountain bike – they’re not just a little bit lighter and better finished, they usually genuinely work better when it comes to forks, shocks, brakes (even if it’s the ability to get the lever and bite point where you want it), wheels, even grips. A relatively unskilled rider can have more fun and comfort on a better bike.
Road bikes not so much – I’ve ridden some expensive road bikes and really didn’t notice any significant difference for the sort of casual riding I do and I find it hard to believe that even racing at an amateur level theres a lot of benefit.
This.
Well I've not ridden tons of road bikes, but my main one at the moment was a proper high-end frameset and it does have a certain je ne sais quoi - being feathery light, super-responsive and with a sense of life.
Cheaper carbon bikes have just felt a bit duller. Like the difference between double butted 4130 MTBs and triple or quad-butted fancier alloys.
But the premium attached for those higher modulous carbon layups is almost insulting. Even if the material were twice the price (I don't expect it is), the labour involved is the bigger cost and that must be very similar.
https://www.specializedconceptstore.co.uk/product/15187/2020-s-works-venge-di2-sagan-collection-ltd/ >>>>>> £10250
Yep that Specialized road bike looks expensive but just look at what it can do:
It’s time to start chasing your own rainbows with the Sagan Collection.
Our quest for the perfect tube shapes didn’t start in the Win Tunne, but with a new piece of technology, the FreeFoil Shape Library. Our engineers wrote an optimization algorithm and utilized a supercomputer to help create new airfoil shapes with different weights, surface areas, and structural targets. Armed with this library of shapes, we could plug them into the different parts of the bike and test a variety of configurations to determine the fastest setup in the Win Tunnel.
While the Rider-First Engineered™ tubes greatly contribute to the reduction in weight, they also generate a higher a higher stiffness-to-weight ratio and provide 40% more compliance than the ViAS—no matter the frame. And we can't forget the 32mm-wide tire clearance for further compliance.
Not only did we make the Venge more aero than the ViAS, but we also took 460 grams out of the module weight. This means we saved 240g in the frame, 25g in the fork, 107g in the cockpit, 25g in the seatpost, and 63g in small parts—making it the fastest option when you need to go up, down, and all around.
The new cockpit, developed in partnership with our World Tour teams, features a stem with a higher stiffness than anything we’ve ever tested, new bars that are faster, lighter, stiffer, and feature a textured pattern on the tops for extra grip and control.
Compared to the fastest aero road bike to date (the Venge ViAS), and many others in the space that we won't name here, the new Venge is eight seconds faster over 40km at zero degrees of yaw.
Well I'm about to find out if super bike level road frames make any difference. I've got one on the way next week hopefully, granted it's not built with a top tier gruppo but I reckon 8000 series Ultegra Di2 will do 😉
As for mountain bikes, I've got new XTR 12 speed on my bike along with fox fork and shock that are next in line to the kashima coated stuff and its ace, better than the previous gen XTR that's on my other one, and considerably better than lower spec stuff.
Remember the expensive tech trickles down the range over the years so it's actually good news
I've had quite a few "posh" bikes. But i've never paid list for them. Just wait for the sales when there's a newer model planned and swoop in.
Comparing carbon layups is very counter intuitive in terms of the resulting properties versus what your eyes will tell you. Gross generalisations aside - having held small test sections of a major brands carbon layup in my hands to compare standard vs high modulus its very surprising that a high modulus section of only about a third physical volume can be massively stiffer and stronger than the standard layup - giving a good example of the differences in tensile modulus and strength, they look almost identical from the surface though. Multiplied throughout the frame structure these higher modulus sections certainly make a big difference to the amount of material required to hit the target stiffnesses. What your'e really getting in terms of modulus when the bike industry says 'high' modulus is very vague, and covers a broad range of possibilities. In something like an Sworks the frame has small sections around key zones of some of the highest modulus fibres you'll see in bike applications, as well as being an overall higher spec fibre, this is what you're paying for. The advanced processes in refining the raw fibres to achieve higher modulus fabrics are a lot more costly as far as I'm aware, it wouldn't surprise me if a sheet of ultra high fibre was 10x that of standard, the highest modulus currently technically possible for rare applications even more than that.
Cheaper carbon bikes have just felt a bit duller.
You might be right but the actual differences in speed are minimal ime. Some bikes feel faster but dont seem to be any faster. Its like when I swap from 30mm slicks to 25mm tyres, it feels much faster but in actual times you struggle to notice a difference.
My other love is guitars - that's a much more mature market than bikes. You can slice it up any way you like, but there are broadly 3 categories.
1) Entry level guitars. Sub £300. These are mostly fine these days but the fit/finish is just 'OK' and they might not have all the features.
2) Mid range - I guess the £350 - 800 sort of level. These are great guitars.
3) Top tier - Gibson USA / custom or Fender Custom Shop, PRS, whatever.
Most manufacturers have the same model in each of these tiers. Very few people could tell the difference between the top and mid-tiers (sound, feel) in a blindfolded test. But what is well understood is that if people want to buy a £2k Les Paul Standard, they aren't going to walk out of the shop with a £400 Epiphone. It's a bit crazy but well-recognised.
Getting back to bikes:
Custom Shop == S-Works. They're not models for your average rider to aspire to. They're models for people who have the means and want to spend more. It just takes a shift in perspective for all of us who have grown around bikes where the top tier is vaguely attainable. We just have to be satisfied that £3k now gets you a very good bike. It just doesn't say Fender USA on the headstock.
Can't believe no one has mentioned Jones yet.
In fact there are loads of gravel 'rigs' (as they call them) on bikepacking.com which are lovely to look at but not that innovative and comedy priced:
https://bikepacking.com/bikes/corvid-cycles-map/ $7k for a rigid with XT anyone?
And don't get me started on the bags
https://bikepacking.com/gear/jones-truss-fork-pack/ ........$250 for a pair!
If a new mountain bike costs more than a new motorbike then it's a no from me.
Always wanted a Santa Cruz, but even the cheapest seems massively overpriced when you compare it against a Canyon or YT (other bikes are available) so you do have to wonder just how much of it is badge-willy-waving.
The comparison I see out in the real, non-cycling, world is the upshot of people buying Mercedes. All of a sudden they're everywhere, it's all about getting that badge.
Compared to the fastest aero road bike to date (the Venge ViAS), and many others in the space that we won’t name here, the new Venge is eight seconds faster over 40km at zero degrees of yaw.
So providing I stay upright all the way I can get to work approx 6 seconds quicker.....
That'll save me about 23.5 minutes a year on the commute - Where do I sign??
On a serious note though, I think anything over £2.5 is pushing it.
I understand the costs of say the Hope, Orange and Atherton bikes - all hand made by smaller companies in a country with higher overheads than those of the mass producers.
Always wanted a Santa Cruz, but even the cheapest seems massively overpriced when you compare it against a Canyon or YT (other bikes are available) so you do have to wonder just how much of it is badge-willy-waving.
Not if you wait for the sales. I'd written off the idea of a SC due to cost but last year picked up a rather blingy hightower (not the new model) for 35% off from Stiff. Patience is key.
Salsa Cutthroat full build, lovely looking versitile bike, but that price!
Road bikes (and mtb for that matter) are not just the sum of their parts. Companies like Specialized and Giant make HUGE investments in R&D. Then theres marketing, distribution costs, 1500 employees to pay, premises to keep, sponsorship deals to pay for. To be honest I am surprised they can produce bikes as good as they do for the price.
Check out Specialized R&D centre, things like this cost millions to setup.
You might be right but the actual differences in speed are minimal ime.
I'd agree to an extent, I can't get near some of the Strava times I set on my first roadbike, a Boardman Team Carbon with Ksyrium wheels.
But on real hills there's a clear and consistent advantage with my best bike.
Still, the feeling is at least as important as the reality, eh?
Still, the feeling is at least as important as the reality, eh?
Absolutely. A Ferrari can only legally travel at the same speed as a ford KA on the open roads but its still nicer to drive.
Agreed the cost is bonkers. It's the main reason I'm still riding a 26" Cotic Bfe. I want to go back to a full suss but massively put off the price of new.
No bike is expensive, but that's because I'm filthy rich.
so you do have to wonder just how much of it is badge-willy-waving.
Haven't Santa Cruz got their own factory making their frames, so I imagine a large amount of the difference in price is probably down to that. If you're not sharing the production line with 5-6 other manufacturers, it's bound to bump up the cost a bit, I'd have thought.
inflation adjusted £1k in 2020 money you Would see a huge leap in value and capability of the humble ride.
I don't know how true that is, Giant VT2, Specialized Pitch, Cannondale Prophet, all were ~£900 on the shop floor. Ok inflation makes them a bit more but still in the same ballpark as bikes like the Bossnut and other bargains.
New bikes are generally better, but comparing to their contemporaries there's been decent ~£1k FS bikes for a good long while.
If you then did a graph of the price of the average highest priced bike in the range of say the top 6 selling brands adjusted for inflation over the same time period you would see it is possible to spend a hell of a lot more now than it was in years past.
Again, there's always been ludicrously expensive bikes from Specialized / Scott / Trek. And if they were too cheep, there was always Moots, Dean, etc making titanium frames you needed a 2nd mortgage to own. Same with components, Di2 is expensive, but so was Shimano's sojourn into Carbon chainsets.
Agreed the cost is bonkers. It’s the main reason I’m still riding a 26″ Cotic Bfe. I want to go back to a full suss but massively put off the price of new.
I think the Mag's are as much to blame for this as anyone.
Review after review of £3k bikes, with criticisms make you think that the point of diminishing returns must be around that surely because the £2900 bike is criticized for having an aluminium bar rather than carbon on the £3000 one.
When the reality is if they stuck a £1100 bike with Deore in there and asked is anything 3x better, the answer would be no, against the clock I'd be surprised if even a £3k bike from the same range was measurably/significantly faster than the £1k model.
But on real hills there’s a clear and consistent advantage with my best bike.
Still, the feeling is at least as important as the reality, eh?
How much is it that you try harder on your best bike? Like I said my carbon fibre used ebay bike feels sooooooo much quicker than my gravel bike with slicks or my old Defy and it is lighter and stiffer but in reality the difference in times are minimal.
Not if you wait for the sales. I’d written off the idea of a SC due to cost but last year picked up a rather blingy hightower (not the new model) for 35% off from Stiff. Patience is key.
Now that Santa Cruz change the colours every year, you don't even need to be that patient. Also depends if you're prepared to put a bit of effort in, and/or how finicky you are about component choices, as there are often deals to be had on frames. I'm also on a last years' Hightower, bought as a frame and swapped most of the (admittedly reasonably new) components off a frame I'd bought and didn't really get on with...
I think i read a while ago that prices aren't just worked out on cost plus a certain margin, they are actually spread out to create a range of prices. So the lower end bikes hardly make any money, the mid-range is where the bulk of the profit comes & the top end have massive margins on just to spread things out a bit & create exclusivity & aspiration. Which goes some way to explaining how s-works bikes can end up with £3k discounts at the end of the year.
As an aside, i think lot of people are buying these expensive bikes over a few years on R2W.
My dad bought an s-works levo (£10K) on cyclescheme & the net cost over 3 years is about £6.5k as he's on 40% tax. Still a lot but certainly not £10k.
As an aside, i think lot of people are buying these expensive bikes over a few years on R2W.
My dad bought an s-works levo (£10K) on cyclescheme & the net cost over 3 years is about £6.5k as he’s on 40% tax. Still a lot but certainly not £10k.
Good to see the government stepping up for those truly in need.