[Closed] Self defence

You need to demonstrate reasonable force to deal with the threat and why you thought the threat was enough to warrant an attack.

Nope, that's attacking the guy. Loads of people are all bark and no bite..

Get yourself into a defensive position, then block the first attack if comes, then you can leather him(within reason), that's self defence.

I would just leave it.

Then later on mow him down in yer motor.

Be home in time for tea.

To me a bloke getting out of a van implies an attack is imminent, as soon as they're in your face that's reason enough to end it before it escalates IMHO especially at night, who knows what nutters abound, bloke could have a weapon etc etc. Surely best not to wait to be attacked.

If you were absolutely convinced you are about to be hit then im sure you could argue self defence. Have you got a witness?

Like I said, all hypothetical.

....of course there is always the South Park defence:

joolsburger - Member
To me a bloke getting out of a van implies an attack is imminent, as soon as they're in your face that's reason enough to end it before it escalates IMHO especially at night, who knows what nutters abound, bloke could have a weapon etc etc. Surely best not to wait to be attacked.

bit like bombing **** out of iraq! 😀

In the law (which I just googled) it does specifically state that you need not wait to be attacked to mount a defense. If you have some numpty really screaming and rushing you I feel you're well within your rights to lamp him with sufficent force to stop any silliness.

It's not self defence, it's a preemptive attack, based on a fear that you might be attacked.

Not correct
[i]
Pre-emptive strikes

There is no rule in law to say that a person must wait to be struck first before they may defend themselves, (see R v Deana, 2 Cr App R 75).[/i]

pretty much what drac said;

[i]A person may use such force as is reasonable in the circumstances for the purposes of:

self-defence; or
defence of another; or
defence of property; or
prevention of crime; or
lawful arrest.

In assessing the reasonableness of the force used, prosecutors should ask two questions:

was the use of force necessary in the circumstances, i.e. Was there a need for any force at all? and
was the force used reasonable in the circumstances?

The courts have indicated that both questions are to answered on the basis of the facts as the accused honestly believed them to be (R v Williams (G) 78 Cr App R 276), (R. v Oatbridge, 94 Cr App R 367).

To that extent it is a subjective test. There is, however, an objective element to the test. The jury must then go on to ask themselves whether, on the basis of the facts as the accused believed them to be, a reasonable person would regard the force used as reasonable or excessive.
[/i]
from the CPS guidance at http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/s_to_u/self_defence/#Pre-emptive

If you struck first in a situation where you feared for your life or were protecting your property you [i]should [/i]be ok.

Yes indeed that one^^^^

Only breaks the law if you get caught! Knock him out, chuck his car keys down a drain and have the cash out of his wallet. Ride off never to be seen again

I expect in my hypothtical example everyone went their separate ways without involving her majestys constabulary.

Then would it matter what it was?

So when a very similar incident happened to me, van driver pulled over got out shouting and gesturing after attempting to shove me into the curb, I simply hoped on to the pavement and rode in the opposite direction after telling him to do one. No point in entering into a situation where I might have needed to lay him out. Despite really really wanting to teach him a lesson to be careful who he picked on. Of course he might have also been in the British team for a martial art at the time or a mega hard arse, but the chances were quite slim...

Of course flight is always better than fighting - No arguements here.

I worked the doors for a few years and to get your badge your taught the law on self defence because as a doorman you can only lay hands on someone in self defence that can be self defence of another person as well. But you can only nullify the threat you can't keep hitting or kicking them when there down.

This anti-cycling nonsense the UK seems to be gripped by has really gone too far...

You wouldn't go and thump a pedestrian for walking along slowly in front of you...

Attempting to punch on the hooter is unlikely to make contact unless he's very slow. He will then have hold of your arm, and he being burly van driver and you being skinny cyclist, you are in big trouble.

If you must attack, gob copiously in his face and, during the second or so that you have as his arms instinctively try to defend his face, either deliver fierce blow to solar plexus / nether regions (or preferably) ride away tout suite.

In your entirely hypothetical situation, I reckon you'd be well withing your rights to land one and claim self defence.
He's blocked you, left the van and is coming towards you aggressively.
Course, if you decked him, took full mount and started pummeling his face into the pavement, the law may take an altogether dimmer view.

Attempting to punch on the hooter is unlikely to make contact unless he's very slow. He will then have hold of your arm, and he being burly van driver and you being skinny cyclist, you are in big trouble.

If you must attack, gob copiously in his face and, during the second or so that you have as his arms instinctively try to defend his face, either deliver fierce blow to solar plexus / nether regions (or preferably) ride away tout suite.

Hypothetically, you punch him in the face and cops do turn up (or they track you down) you're potentially at the mercy of the courts. You may get off, you may end up with a conviction against your name. Not a good thing.

Or hypothetically, say you do punch the guy in the face. He falls backwards, hits his head on the curb, dies of his injuries. What then?

I'd turn around and ride off before he gets out of his van.

brooess - Member
This anti-cycling nonsense englandshire seems to be gripped by has really gone too far...

kilo - Member

Best form of self defence. Not to put your self in a situation that requires violence.
Hitting someone is the last the last resort but if some one is coming at you....I certainly wouldn't wait until he had hit me first!!!!

Or hypothetically, say you do punch the guy in the face. He falls backwards, hits his head on the curb, dies of his injuries. What then?

Tell them the sun was in your eyes and you didn't see him as you did an air punch for getting a KOM on a strava run.

As said you don't have to wait to be hit before you defend youself. But in 40yrs of cycling I can count he number of properly hard ( fighting ) cyclists I've met on one hand. The two just don't seem to go together. Of course Stw members buck this trend Lol. I'm 53 and not had a fight since school, don't confront, don't provoke 99.9% of situations can be sorted with a calm attitude and a few well chosen words.

Attempting to punch on the hooter is unlikely to make contact unless he's very slow

What rot. Quick feint with the left, jab on the button then rake your Sidis down his shin, landing the heel square on the top of his foot.

I am a WARRIOR!aaa!11!

No you don't need to let him hit you first. Just like armed police don't need to let armed criminals fire first.

All depends on the facts and circumstances. His age, size, and weight versus yours. What was he shouting? Was he on his own? Were you on your own? Was it verbals only? Was he clenching his fists or adopting a fighting stance? Were the verbals about your cycling or was he threatening to assault you?

Once you punch him when do you stop? Will he get the best of it? If you are sure you would win a fight with him then maybe the threat isn't big enough to justify a pre-emptive punch?

Lots to go wrong with relying on self defence. As suggested best avoided altogether by riding off as the van stops.

Drac - Moderator
Or hypothetically, say you do punch the guy in the face. He falls backwards, hits his head on the curb, dies of his injuries. What then?
Tell them the sun was in your eyes and you didn't see him as you did an air punch for getting a KOM on a strava run.

SMIDSY? Naughty but funny...

A relative of mine was punched to the floor and then kicked in the head whilst unconscious resulting in him needing to learn to walk and talk again and the perpetrator got away with it so I'm guessing you'd be alright.

"I punched him and he fell to the floor but I was worried he would get up and attack me so I stamped on his face"

That was about the size of it.

I once had a situation where I felt as though I was going to be hit, I was off the bike with it between me and him, I simply lifted it up in front of me so that if he did go for me I could shove it at him to stop any blows or even force him to the ground with the bike and me on top. He had a sudden change of heart and backed away just giving me verbals.

[url= http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jimmy_fatwing/SelfProtection/cycle.htm ]Self protection on a bicycle [/url]

Take your helmet off asap. Your no longer a cyclist.

Yes that could be 'hes getting ready'

But I found it helps with de-escaltion too.

Always best to run/cycleaway.

It all depends which bike I'm on and therefore, what shoes I'm wearing. Trying to punch someone while wearing road cleats my just nd up being very silly.

Aye that's not self defence.. What you should have done is wait for him to engage you, pull guard, then slap a triangle on the sucker.

when this happened to me, van driver mounted the pavement to go round me, i made an obvious vanker gesture (after he passed me he had to stop for the oncoming car) the guy threatened to follow me and find out where i lived.

i pointed out that wouldnt be difficult as we were outside my house, invited him to come round and sort it out anytime he wanted.

never saw him again.

as above, most folk are all bark and no bite, its only adrenaline that has got them out of the vehicle (safety cage)
pre-emptive strike will always put you on shaky ground with the law.

Aye that's not self defence.

Disagree but it all depends.
If someone overtakes you dangerously gets out a vehicle and walks towards you aggressively saying/swearing/shouting/screaming they are going to hit you - this would surely always be the story anyway- then I dont think you need to wait until they hit you to hit them ;it seems reasonable to assume they will hit you anyway and you are under threat as they are not coming over for a cuddle are they

I think the key is who gets out the vehicle and does the walking towards as they are generally considered to be the aggressor/threatening as they can shout from a distance for example.

Cycling shoes are not fighting shoes. You really need to knock him out with the first punch...

The bloke who hit me didn't say anything as he approached me.

Having done conflict resolution training at work I now know that he was in 'attack' mode. Focussed, quiet, eyes wide open and staring at me, arms stiff and at the side of his body, walking very quickly but not running, like some primeval 'stalking' reflex. I'm glad I was wearing my helmet as it did a good job of blocking his punches.

The couple of people I've seen shouting and gesticulating actually have quite a relaxed body, they're less tense, but moving around more. Probably fit in the 'all bark, no bite' category. The ones to worry about are those who don't bark at all but are still coming towards you.

First thing to do is [b]get off the bike[/b]. You probably can't accelerate as quick as you think,not compared to someone who's already out of the van and coming towards you. Unless there's a cut through within 20 yards that he can't get his van through then I'd be off the bike (it's hard to defend yourself against a gentle shove, let alone a flurry of punches, while you're astride a bike), using it as a shield and telling him to get back in his van. Adding a 'sir' might be enough to confuse him (the police are the only people who say 'sir' nowadays so it sounds authoritative).

If he does come at you then use the bike, rearrange the skin on his shins with the chainrings!

Then get away and report it before he does.

Personally I find that a combo of flying Hard Kick, Crouch Hard Punch, Hadoken sorts out most people...

...but only if you are Ryu

Get off the bike is very good advice, very little scope for movement or staying upright if you're still on it.

Also, regardless of self defence*:
Balled fist: GBH
Open hand: ABH

*disclaimer: not a lawyer, etc.

I think getting in a fight indicates enormously bad luck or colossally bad judgement, but in any case, unless they're trying to kill you it's generally best to err toward the less aggressive.

guy threatened to follow me and find out where i lived.

i pointed out that wouldnt be difficult as we were outside my house, invited him to come round and sort it out anytime he wanted.

Fantastic 🙂

A guy once crawled alongside me and ended a foaming torrent of abuse with "I'll knock your ****ing head off", but sped off when I grinned at him and responded "Alright, pull over and let's give that a go". The passenger he was shouting across looked like she was going to die of shame.

I've been giving my hypothetical sceanrio a lot of thought and I reckon if your out of the van then that's enough, a bad move to try and bully on the wrong cyclist. Like someone said he's not coming for a cuddle and best not to wait and see what he wants.

Also, regardless of self defence*:
Balled fist: GBH
Open hand: ABH

what about elbows and knees?

You can do just as much damage with an open hand tbh

Surely the charge is defined by HOW much damage you do not how you do it?

IANAL

Also, regardless of self defence*:
Balled fist: GBH
Open hand: ABH

*disclaimer: not a lawyer, etc.

Yeah your not a lawyer neither am I but as I said back on page 1 it's reasonable force. A quick bop on the nose with a fist could be argued as reasonable if the actions the threatening person seemed to be taking was the same or more.

GBH and ABH is more the extent of how much hitting you did not alway what you used.

You're probably right, but it can be taken as an indication of intent. Also, our hands are full of delicate little bones…

Elbows and knees: Probably doesn't stand in your favour later if you're seen using them. What does and doesn't look aggressive to bystanders counts for a lot, so it pays to stay calm whatever actions you take.

A guy I trained with was attacked by someone with a knife. After disarming him and knocking him out, he did something the police b*llocked him for later, but it was effective: He talked to all of the witnesses saying "Did you see that? He tried to stab me. That guy just tried to kill me can you believe it?" etc.

I think the best way to deal with all of these hypothetical scenarios, and especially any fear of them, is to train in some kind of self defence. Preferably something street based rather than a sport with loads of rules and mats. I was scared it would bring out or feed my aggressive side, but it actually cooled me down and brought it more under control. I've never, ever come close to having to use it, but the confidence and calmness that came from it really help in dealing with bad or aggressive drivers. De-escalation is almost always best, and training for worse things can help you achieve that more assertively.

guy threatened to follow me and find out where i lived.

Years ago one of my riding buddies managed to very quickly turn such an escalation around by replying:

"Actually, I'm on my way to work, why don't you follow me there, it won't take us long, you know the Police Station on XXXX road?"

Suffice it to say the chap backed down very quickly and was terribly apologetic, just a good job he didn't know that although my buddy did technically work at the Police station, it was as a cleaner.

but it actually cooled me down and brought it more under control. I've never, ever come close to having to use it, but the confidence and calmness that came from it really help in dealing with bad or aggressive drivers

Still stayed calm and was not screaming but talking to them to calm it all down - fighting is shit and pointless.

Surely a big part of it will come down to what you do next...

Supposing you've landed a decisive, pre-emptive blow on the basis that you felt a road rage fueled attack was imminent, lets assume the driver is for the moment immobile enough to not pose a threat so you have some time to think, which of the following action(s) do you take:

A) Just ride off...
B) Call the police to report your involvement in the incident and await an officer?
C) Give the driver a second or two to gather himself and check He is OK?
D) Start looking for witnesses (ideally to corroborate your claim of self defence)?

I reckon B and D make sense, Leaving implies either guilt or a lack of concern for the person you have just injured, being the one to contact the Police could count in your favour, but following up with enquiries as to his well being without having the rozzers on the way is dicey, better to call them and maybe inform the operator you have struck and potentially injured the driver and an ambulance may be required. He may have calmed down, he might be even more angry now, it makes general sense to start asking people if they saw what happened...

Getting off the bike ASAP is a very good point too, you'll not be winning any fisticuffs with 14kg of steel and plastics wedged between your legs...

TBH as soon as the driver pulls in and get out his goal is clearly conflict of some sort and no longer making progress, and getting out of the vehicle is him leaving a relatively safe environment for that very purpose... That means a lot, I'd interpret those initial actions as an indicator of aggressive intent, never mind him actually getting as far as taking a swing at you.

As I'm sure others have said, you have right to use reasonable force to defend yourself, and how extreme you can be depends on the circumstances as you see it at the time. There is a variety of case law out there, the Tony Martin shooting case got a lot of publicity at the time as he killed a burglar who was going away from him and was convicted. At the same a farmer near us wasn't charged having also shot a burglar, but who was coming towards him.

Someone was in the papers recently having been cleared for breaking a burglars arms and legs while defending himself, though I guess the tabloids were simplifying it.

I was assaulted by a car driver while out riding a few years ago. Words were exchanged, he pulled up down the road, got out the car, made various threats and eventually pushed me through a hedge. He was cautioned for assault, his defence being that he felt so threatened by the fat middle aged bloke in Lycra that he had to stop his car, get out and defend himself.

The copper dealing with it told me that you can shout and swear at each other all you like, but the first person to touch the other one loses as far as the law was concerned.

I was pretty sure he was going to hit me but didn't launch a preemptive defence as he looked like he would have really hurt me, and if he had gone to town on me I had two mates with me who - I hope - would have stepped in.

Throw yourself to the floor and scream something along the lines of 'not the face again/my children can't grow up without a daddy', then get into the foetal position and cry like a big girl/small child.

He'll either stick the boot in (ok, as you're in a protective position), quickly scarper (leaving you to carry on with your ride) or come down to see if you're ok (upper-cut to the chin, lights-out, zip-ties, back of the van)

Supposing you've landed a decisive, pre-emptive blow on the basis that you felt a road rage fueled attack was imminent, lets assume the driver is for the moment immobile enough to not pose a threat so you have some time to think, which of the following action(s) do you take

Head Butts to the nose are a big no - no apparently . A serving police officer told me a head butt isnt self defence ,ever . So no nutting someone despite how effective it can be ( although in a lid with a peak it will probably go horribly wrong anyway )

Butter on the windscreen and ride off in the other direction after removing 1 or more valve cores if your quick enough

Head Butts to the nose are a big no - no apparently . A serving police officer told me a head butt isnt self defence ,ever . So no nutting someone despite how effective it can be ( although in a lid with a peak it will probably go horribly wrong anyway )

I'm not advising people to go around headbutting errant van drivers but again that does not accord with the CPS guidance, you can butt if it is reasonable force against the threat you are facing - you can use lethal force if it is appropriate - the guidance shown on page one is fairly self explanatory. As an aside we were taught nearest target, nearest weapon so headbutts could be fine as were eye gouges and biting the face if the situation demanded it. I shoud add I am also a lover not a fighter.

Head Butts to the nose are a big no - no apparently

When I was attacked I ended up on the floor with my legs tangled up in the bike, one arm trapped under my back and the other on my front, pinned in between my stomach and the bloke who was on top of me and punching me in the head. If the same thing happened again (!?) and I had the presence of mind I'd headbutt him. The only other option is to lie there until he's finished punching me and then ask him for a hand up!

I think the best way to deal with all of these hypothetical scenarios, and especially any fear of them, is to train in some kind of self defence. -- De-escalation is almost always best, and training for worse things can help you achieve that more assertively.

Depends on the people as well. If your a 5'6", 9 stone bloke, and he's a 6'4" meathead, you'll probably be alright.
If you look like a rugby player, and the van driver is 87, you'll probably be in the shit.