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Good or bad idea?
I fancy an e-bike for the days where I want to go out on the bike but don’t want to be killing myself on the climbs on my Solaris.
Obviously, they’re bloody expensive.
What’s the general verdict on buying secondhand, decent way to save some cash or not?
Does it come with a warranty (plenty have transferable ones)?
If not, or if not much, factor the price of a new motor and battery into any negotiation (around a grand)
Does it come with a warranty (plenty have transferable ones)?
Plenty? I thought transferrable warranties for the motor and battery were pretty much limited to Specialized?
Like buying a car isn't it? Bit of a gamble til you find out you've got a good one... or a shed.
We have sold 2 Turbo Levos, 2017 and 2018, which are still going strong. We have also bought 2 2022 second-hand Turbo Levos last year, which have had the warranties transferred to us, which saved us quite a bit of money.
I cant comment on other bikes or other manufacturers but our bikes have been run all year round in all conditions and we have been more than happy.
Warranty is often handled by the component manufacturer, for example Bosch, so as long as you have the original receipt you should be covered for the first 2 years, but a lot depends on the shop you take it to; some are significantly better than others.
However, there appears to be a lot of excess inventory so now is a good time to be looking for new bargains, rather than second hand (and I say that as someone who has one eBike too many and a wife who wants a new bathroom...)
Plenty? I thought transferrable warranties for the motor and battery were pretty much limited to Specialized?
And Trek. Bosch are pretty good in my experience, I sold a bike which was 12 months old & at ~20 months (and 7000km) it needed a new motor. The guy has my original receipt & they fixed it for free.
I have a second hand Trek which needed a new plug on the battery, which they kindly ended up replacing the whole battery for, with just the receipt.
There was another thread on here recently where I was called all sorts of names by someone who clearly had a very different experience. Based on their posting history, I would say, if it’s discretionary, they probably (definitely) failed the attitude test 😆
Racecocycles usually sell trade-ins on their eBay shop.
It's always being updated with stock so might be worth checking with them.
If I was looking at saving money on an ebike, I think I'd be keeping an eye out for a second hand Cotic full-sus (or other full sus with a relatively 'normal' downtube) and then buy a Tongsheng TSDZ2 kit to fit to it (the TSDZ2 is the only bolt on motor with a torque sensor, as far as I know).
It'll be a new motor and battery so that'll still be covered by warranty (although try to find a 'local' supplier). Plus, if it does crap out, at least you've still got the bike.
There's a Cotic Rocket in the classifieds for £1300. Another £600 for the motor and battery (although I've no idea how the taxes would work these days) so that's less that £2K for a pretty decent set up. Not sure how that stacks up against a 2nd hand ebike.
If not, or if not much, factor the price of a new motor and battery into any negotiation (around a grand)
Also factor in the availability of spares and the fact that with a dead motor you may have a completely useless bike.
Have a chat with Rich at RaceCo- normally has a few px bikes for sale.
Go for it, there a bugger loads of Vitus E-sommet's & the like out there that cost £3K (in 2018) to buy so are not worth a whole loads 2nd hand.
If a part breaks (motor/battery), it only like replacing a higher end fork, as long as you go in with your eye open, there no more risk than buy anything second hand. Though I suggested the Shimano powered vitus, I'd put those down as 3rd choice of Brose or Bosch, but that my personal preference.
If you're anywhere near Glasgow I'm selling my 10 month old Vitus eSommet
All working perfectly, zero issues, never pressure washed.
Only reason I'm selling is I bought it to help me get riding again after being hit really hard with post viral fatigue after getting Covid. Couldn't ride 5k on my normal bike without needing to sleep for 3 days to recover. Ebike got me back out and riding which was great but I'm fully recovered now and riding the normal bike again so really can't justify keeping the ebike.
Cost me £5k, will let it go for £3k
If a part breaks (motor/battery), it only like replacing a higher end fork, as long as you go in with your eye open, there no more risk than buy anything second hand.
No its not ... if anything forks illustrates HOW DIFFERENT it is.
I can (worst case) buy a higher end fork from lots of reputable places
https://www.google.com/search?q=lyrik+ultimate&sxsrf=AJOqlzWuRb2jXypNfNwCjct5r6_Vfg_anQ:1677576261956&source=lnms&tbm=shop&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi8ubXJ8rf9AhX1QUEAHS-wAdAQ_AUoAXoECAEQAw&biw=1530&bih=865&dpr=1
I can't buy a new motor anywhere reputable. (In the same way .. I'm talking about simply ordering, not finding out its a used item, no warranty - stolen etc.) best I can find is a german place seems legit as they insist you send them the faulty motor..
However that's worst case... in reality you never really need to replace a whole fork.. because they are made to be serviceable and maintainable. (It might make economic sense but you can buy the parts)
A really big crash I might need a new CSU or lowers... but every part or assembly is easy to buy.
My forks warranty is dependent on servicing whereas my motor warranty expressly forbids servicing. (So anyone buying it used isn't getting a motor that's been maintained)
I can even fit a different brand fork or shock...
Go for it, there a bugger loads of Vitus E-sommet’s & the like out there that cost £3K (in 2018) to buy so are not worth a whole loads 2nd hand.
£2900 in December 2022 .. currently £3100 ... and with 2 years warranty...
But great example ... CRC/Wiggle are selling the bikes but you can't buy a new motor off them.
This for me is eyes wide open... when I can buy a new motor off the place selling the bikes and/or all the parts then it's like a high end fork.
Even then the torque sensor (common failure on shimano) is not available (or in their catalogue)
I can buy a load of spares from <insert bike brand here> but show me one lists motors on their website for ordering?
It's one thing the motor manufactures saying you can, my experience was you can't.
Randomish example I can buy a Whyte mech hangar or lots of linkage stuff etc. but they don't have new motors on their website let alone the parts to order and buy.
https://whytebikes.com/collections/parts-accessories?page=2
Randomish example I can buy a Whyte mech hangar or lots of linkage stuff etc. but they don’t have new motors on their website let alone the parts to order and buy.
Of course you can't; the warranty is normally handled by the component manufacturer. A fact that has been mentioned several times recently and one you seem determined to ignore. Out of warranty there are places like eBike Motor Centre who will sell you most of the parts that may fail. I believe PCBs are the exception but they are apparently working to rectify this.
In the case of Bosch, there have been several incidences of recently out of warranty Gen 4 motors being replaced FOC.
And Trek. Bosch are pretty good in my experience, I sold a bike which was 12 months old & at ~20 months (and 7000km) it needed a new motor. The guy has my original receipt & they fixed it for free.
I have a second hand Trek which needed a new plug on the battery, which they kindly ended up replacing the whole battery for, with just the receipt.
There was another thread on here recently where I was called all sorts of names by someone who clearly had a very different experience. Based on their posting history, I would say, if it’s discretionary, they probably (definitely) failed the attitude test 😆
Any warranty involves an attitude test isn't worth the paper it's not written on.
I apologised for inferring you were a used car dealer or worked in marketing but sadly the internet is full of people being paid to sell lies about eMTB's or trying to sell their used eMTB. I know Rob from Rob Rides eMTB got his motor replaced and a loan motor off the owners bike.. however I think it's naive (at best) to think this doesn't depend how many subscribers he has.
Trek warranty very clearly says the motors (anything not specifically listed) are Bosch's (manufacturers) problem and Bosch don't seem to want to publish a warranty... they also spread lies about eMTB's deliberately so why would anyone would trust them ???
However mine wasn't under warranty and the head mechanic was very apologetic and showed me his screen that he couldn't actually ORDER a replacement Gen 2 motor... it simply didn't exist for him to pre-order. (not out of stock etc. didn't exist)
I'm not interested in anecdotes - show me one I can put in my basket and pay and have a decent chance its not a scam/stolen... Trek (and everyone else) either sell replacement motors or not and if they do they need to list them along with availability on their website.
Commencal sell the motors as spares https://www.commencal-store.co.uk/drive-unit-shimano-ep8-meta-power-c2x33840969
I’m not interested in anecdotes
Except your own, apparently...
Has anyone tried going to the manufacturer (directly or via the shop originally purchased at) and saying that you know it is out of warranty, but offering to pay for the same service?
Doomanic
Of course you can’t; the warranty is normally handled by the component manufacturer. A fact that has been mentioned several times recently and one you seem determined to ignore. Out of warranty there are places like eBike Motor Centre who will sell you most of the parts that may fail. I believe PCBs are the exception but they are apparently working to rectify this.
Yet I can buy a fork....(freehub, etc. etc.)
I'm not ignoring it I'm saying it's NOT THE SAME... if my motor gores out of warranty I can't find anywhere to buy a new one that looks legit. (There was one place in Germany I can't find now)
I can buy a new fork...
I can buy the parts...
I can buy 3rd party replacement parts... (void warranty)
I'm allowed to service my forks...
I believe PCBs are the exception but they are apparently working to rectify this.
eBike Motor Centre are doing Gen-2's... (reverse engineered).
Meanwhile Bosch is increasing anti-tamper in updates so .. will they ever do a Gen-4 or will Bosch lock it out through updates ??? Based on the rest of their lies I wouldn't trust them not to start releasing updates that wreck the 3rd party replacement PCB's
I have a near total certainty I can buy a replacement set of forks and have them delivered tomorrow... certainly within the week or I can buy parts to repair them. I have no certainty at all about buying a new motor...
You can compare that to wiper motors... I can order a new Bosch/Brose unit right now from Europarts etc. delivered tomorrow...
Doomanic
Except your own, apparently…
So post a (legit) link to buying a new motor ...
Has anyone tried going to the manufacturer (directly or via the shop originally purchased at) and saying that you know it is out of warranty, but offering to pay for the same service?
Almost... the shop originally purchased had closed down (Evans) but Trek have always been really helpful and never hinted they would sell differently and I'd bought various bits off them and knew the mechanic well enough.
When my motor stopped working the head mechanic spent a good 2 hours before giving up.. he didn't charge me a penny.
He tried to order (or see what it would cost) and he couldn't find it in the catalog... This was a previous gen motor (4yrs old) ...
I later went to the Bosch site and went through the circles that eventually take you back to .. yep the dealers. I called 3 or 4 (previously had to buy a battery) and they all told me the same. (Just buying a new battery took a day under 2mo)
As luck would have it a mate who does component repairs to medical imaging offered to take a look... in the end it was a bad spot weld so not rocket science.
This looks interesting...
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/lightest-ebike-kit-your-bike-with-superpowers#/
Apparently comes with mounting plates to fit Bosch / Shimano etc.. mounts. They posted on EMTB Forums a while back showing it fitted to Bosch and Shimano. Torque sensing seems similar to Rocky Mountain PowerPlay.
Shimano
Bosch
Not sure what happens to battery / wiring / switches etc.
HoratioHufnagel
Commencal sell the motors as spares https://www.commencal-store.co.uk/drive-unit-shimano-ep8-meta-power-c2x33840969/blockquote >
Be the first to find out when this model is available to pre-order.
Looks promising.... assuming they get stock but that is IMHO what every manufacturer should be doing.
If they manage to get stock other manufacturers are going to have to follow suit...
Anecdotally, Shimano motors can be sourced through Madison (when they have stock) on an exchange basis and often at a reduced price.
Polini motors are fully user serviceable, shame all the bikes that use them are uggos.
HoratioHufnagel
This looks interesting…
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/lightest-ebike-kit-your-bike-with-superpowers#/
Apparently comes with mounting plates to fit Bosch / Shimano etc.. mounts. They posted on EMTB Forums a while back showing it fitted to Bosch and Shimano. Torque sensing seems similar to Rocky Mountain PowerPlay.
Not sure what happens to battery / wiring / switches etc.
From my perspective it's mainly knowing if I can't replace a motor that the bike is not a brick.
I've seen some Bafang fitted as well with homemade mounting plates....
In a more perfect world it would be pretty and quiet but I'll take working over both.
From my perspective it’s mainly knowing if I can’t replace a motor that the bike is not a brick.
I’ve seen some Bafang fitted as well with homemade mounting plates….
In a more perfect world it would be pretty and quiet but I’ll take working over both.
I'm honestly struggling to see what the advantage of a built in motor is over a regular Bottom Bracket bolt-on one.
If anyone is looking for a cheap in to ebikes I'm going to be selling my XL 2018 Vitus E-sommet frame soon with all the ebike running gear and two batteries, 630 and a 504. Motor has about 1k miles on it, XT cranks, Super Deluxe rear shock, recent bearing replacement including headset, just stripped the frame back to raw, looking for £800
I’m honestly struggling to see what the advantage of a built in motor is over a regular Bottom Bracket bolt-on one.
It's not day and night type thing but...
Any mid/long travel FS eMTB ground clearance is quite important. (Plenty of people running much much shorter cranks)
Also if you hit the cranks/pedals/motor rather than wrecking a BB/cranks its the motor takes the hit.
There is also some aspect of the frame integrity being somewhat supported by the motor.
As an example there is a root at Rogate .. on the HT I get over it 99% of the time.. on the FS 90% ... wouldn't want to even try on the eMTB.. I've rolled it over and it almost touches the motor without me on the bike.
If you just wanted to pootle a hub drive is probably a decent choice and I think the bolt on's are probably in the middle (if towards the integrated end).
The root at rogate on the way to the top is fine on an ebike. I wouldn't like to try it on some cobbled together pos that some on here are talking about.
As an example there is a root at Rogate .. on the HT I get over it 99% of the time.. on the FS 90% … wouldn’t want to even try on the eMTB.. I’ve rolled it over and it almost touches the motor without me on the bike.
How big is this root?
I wouldn’t like to try it on some cobbled together pos that some on here are talking about.
I'm sure Cy Turner will be happy for your feedback on his full-sus offerings.
daveylad
The root at rogate on the way to the top is fine on an ebike. I wouldn’t like to try it on some cobbled together pos that some on here are talking about.
Not that one, the one at the top going back from the main pushup to the start ramp.
doomanic
How big is this root?
Not big at all... its more awkward and 2 roots... but that's not really important to me or I guess to those who can't just afford a new bike if it breaks.
daveylad
I wouldn’t like to try it on some cobbled together pos that some on here are talking about.
Other than the cobbled together POS part (what people can afford doesn't make it a POS, it just makes it what they can afford )
But that was really my point about the bolt on motors...
But that was really my point about the bolt on motors…
I don't get it. It doesn't look to me like a TSDZ2 reduces ground clearance any more than an in-built motor, assuming you used something like a Cotic that had a straight downtube.
I'm having no luck selling my giant ebike. Only 6months old. Seems like no-one is buying bikes
BruceWee
I don’t get it. It doesn’t look to me like a TSDZ2 reduces ground clearance any more than an in-built motor, assuming you used something like a Cotic that had a straight downtube.
Not night and day... (as I said) but ground clearance is both more significant when the part smacking the rock/root etc. is potentially irreplaceable or very expensive AND tends to be lower.
I'm not saying don't... more something to consider. I'd say 165mm cranks are considered long on ebikes vs short on non-e
(I use 165mm on my real bikes as I'm a short arse so I'm always looking for short cranks and 90% of a typical eBay search will be eBike ones)
Not night and day… (as I said) but ground clearance is both more significant when the part smacking the rock/root etc. is potentially irreplaceable or very expensive AND tends to be lower.
Another advantage of the TSDZ2, then. Whacking it and irreparably damaging it will only cost you 350 euros.
Stevextc you really need to get a firmer grip on reality. You’d have to be really unlucky to kill a motor by hitting a root. All my eBikes have/had pretty substantial bash guards; aluminium in the case of both Treks and heavy duty polymer on the KSL.
It’s a shame Geex doesn’t post any more; he’d just tell you to git gud and bunny hop the root. 😂
Doomanic
Stevextc you really need to get a firmer grip on reality. You’d have to be really unlucky to kill a motor by hitting a root.
That's not really the point when breaking it would/could be the end of the bike for the foreseeable future nor is it hitting a root once but the lifetime of the motor.
My reality like many in the UK at the moment is paying for food, heating and after that maybe a trip out or paying for the lad to go on camp with cadets and my major saving goal at the moment is saving enough to take my son to visit his gran at Easter ... new motors/bikes are not even realistic. If its not budgeted it's not happening.
This is the whole difference .. if my fork got wrecked I'd find a way to keep riding... if the motor dies and it's not replaced in warranty I don't see any way to replace it in the short/medium term.
BruceWee
Another advantage of the TSDZ2, then. Whacking it and irreparably damaging it will only cost you 350 euros.
I'm not saying don't just things to consider...
The photo here from NDS doesn't look like its going to take a big bash well...
if my fork got wrecked I’d find a way to keep riding… if the motor dies and it’s not replaced in warranty I don’t see any way to replace it in the short/medium term.
If your fork terminally fails out of warranty you could be looking at a rather large bill, just like if your motor fails. In both cases a BSO would cost less and keep you riding. You really do seem to be looking for flaws.
For example, Zeb lowers cost £300ish, about the same as the most expensive Bosch service from eBike Motor Centre.
It's an MTB, it's going to get bashed about. If the minuscule possibility that riding your bike kills it perhaps you should stick to gravel rides?
My bikes are insured on my household policy that includes accidental damage with a £50 excess. That's enough peace of mind to keep me hurling myself down stuff that scares the crap out of me, which is why I ride in the first place.
My reality like many in the UK at the moment is paying for food, heating
Me too, but I'm not going to further damage my mental health on the off chance that I total my motor.
The photo here from NDS doesn’t look like its going to take a big bash well…
meh, just use the battery as a bash guard
I spent most of the mid-noughties constructing bash guards out of various bits and pieces. I'm sure it's possible to figure something out.
So my conclusions from this thread are…
Having a transferable warranty on it is a good thing, as long as it’s not a Giant e+bike with any kind of warranty!
There’s no way I’d be fitting one of those aftermarket battery/motor abominations to a bike.
Some people really need to spend more time out riding their bikes rather than ranting/arguing on seemingly every thread about e-bikes.
On a lighter note, I took my wife’s Trek Powerfly hardtail out for a quick spin yesterday and was more seed with it from an e-bike point of view. The Suntour forks are junk and the bike’s too small for me but apart from that it was good. I might have a look around for a secondhand Powerfly or Rail. Sadly our cycle to work limit is £3k so probably won’t be going for a new one.
Having a transferable warranty on it is a good thing, as long as it’s not a Giant e+bike with any kind of warranty!
Assuming you can actually see the warranty and its clear who that warranty is with.... and I wouldn't really say Giant are particularly worse than others when it comes to e-Bikes. That is the whole if you try and fix/service it warranty is void thing is standard for the e-component.
Regardless of what anyone claims or people being lucky or having 100k subscribers the Trek Warranty is clear ...
https://www.trekbikes.com/gb/en_GB/warranty_policy/
Subsequent Ownership
Subsequent owners (second or later) are entitled to a 3-year warranty from the date of purchase from the retailer on the Trek frame and Trek fork. This does not include items such as wheels, suspension forks, drive train components etc. Proof of original purchase is required.
This Warranty Does Not Cover
....
Non-proprietary products (any other original part or component) covered by the original manufacturer’s warranty
Any products not specifically included above are omitted, but may be included in the 2012-2019 Trek Care Limited Warranty.
I'd suggest you read the whole warranty including the Bosch one if you could (but you can't unless someone can actually link to the Bosch one) and imagine taking this to court and claiming you thought it covered the motor because the wording is not explicit enough and trying to claim warranty.