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Imagine this scenario…. You are taking part in the Microsoft UK Challenge, you borrow a bike on which to train and take part, you bring this bike with you to a training weekend in the middle of nowhere (Pwll Du Adventure Centre), it's then placed on my rack on my company car which is then driven to and from Cwm Carn for an evening ride, about an hour after returning I go outside to discover it's been stolen and that they had almost taken my bike too. Presumably they followed us, as the centre is pretty remote.
We phone the police, they turn up incredibly quickly and we tell them what's happened, not heard a dicky since, presumably it's still being ridden around Blaenavon by some scum bag.
Anyway, we put it to the back of our minds, got on with the training and we help Sarah keep her spirits up by being positive that we'd be able to get it sorted.
We even managed to raise £16k for the NSPCC, you'd think this would qualify us for some good karma with the insurance companies, but no, way too many get outs for them to wriggle through it seems…..
The insurance companies have all refused to pay up, my company self insures the company cars, this wasn't an official company event so they aren't interested.
Because the bike isn't mine my household insurers, M&S, are not interested.
Because the owner wasn't in charge of the bike his houshold insurance are not interested.
Although she was in charge of the bike it wasn't Sarah's bike, her household insurance aren't interested - is that right? The bike was in her care, he gave it to her for the weekend and duration of training and the event itself.
Unless we can get this resolved Sarah's looking a funding a replacement bike, that's on top of the expense of buying a bike and other kit for herself, a complete spoiler really 🙁
Because we've been honest with the Police and insurance are we now screwed?
Leaving the bike on the car rack unattended is in reality no different to just propping it up in town really...
This really sucks but yeah, you are screwed. :'(
Dbl post...
Yeah but that isn't the reason they are giving, it was locked up with an approved lock! The reason they are giving is because it's wasn't hers.
Ditto - you've got my sympathies but I'm not really surprised that they won't pay out if their policies don't cover the situation...
The reason they are giving is because it's wasn't hers.
Isn't that fair enough though? Otherwise I'd just not bother insuring my stuff and just claim on someone else's policy if anything gets nicked.
If only she had just told the police that it was her bike 🙁
Well we can all be dishonest and profit from it and while it's frustrating, I don't really think that in reality, it sounds like anyone's been unreasonable in refusing a claim...
Sorry Nick, I gathered from your post that it was just strapped onto a bike rack...
No goodwill from the charity?
£16K is a lot of money.
Take it out of the £16K.
😉 <---- joke
perhaps here real insured bike could be stolen some time soon???
And in the same breath people complain that insurance premiums keep going up 🙄
It would be Sarah's policy that could cover it - not yours or the lender's. Who's she insured with?
It did cross our minds to divert some of the money we collected but I actually put the kybosh on that as I thought it was potentially dishonest, at least we'd have to let people who were sponsoring us knwo that some of their money would not go to the NSPCC.
Hence why I'm now trying to find a way of replacing the bike without it costing £500+
Anyone got a Zaskar they don't want?
She's insured with Sheila's Wheels (household and contents).
It was a nice bike too, Blue GT Zaskar Team with Red Manitou Carbon SX forks, not seen it come up on ebay.
You ned to go through all the insurance policies you both have to see if they cover you for personal or 3rd party liability.
Through something you did, a 3rd party (the GT's owner) has experienced a loss of property and is holding you responsible for its replacement.
Hmmm, took a while to track down the policy wording (just love companies who do that). Interesting that they've said it's not covered cos it's not hers (which is wrong by the way - it's in her custody and control so it's my interpretation she'd be legally obliged to cough up for it).
Hoowever, they've got you on 2 exclusions:
"Loss or damage to any pedal cycle which is left unattended away from the home, unless locked to a fixed object"
and
"Theft or attempted theft from road vehicles, unless the item(s) was contained in a locked boot, concealed luggage compartment or glove compartment of a locked vehicle which was broken into by using force and violence."
Only insurance option would be to fall back on your company again & pray for some goodwill. Sorry, but it looks pretty clear from here :o(
I'd speak to the sponsors and ask if they'd object to recovering some cash that way.
R
P.S. You can't get a claim paid under liability as the bike was in her custody & control - that's a specific exclusion too.
Yeah pretty sure you're screwed, did they cut the lock? If so maybe it has a guarantee with it to get a few hundred quid off them?
need the lock though to prove it was locked, guess what, they took the lock and the ****ing straps holding the bike to the rack
Just wondering if I can play the line with M&S that it was in my care, afterall it was locked to my bike rack on my car......
That sucks.
Did you both manage to do the MS Challenge? Was it too late to get hold of one of the (admitidly rubbish) bikes they provided?
Well done on the 16k, more than my team managed (2k!)....
Yeah we managed the challenge although we had two major cockups that cost us a place in the top 25 (and maybe even higher) including leaving a 'braincell' 4 seconds too bloody early (my fault), had a fantastic time though, fantastic event, want to do it again next year... Our other team took home the team fundraising cup after raising £37k, which was awesome.
Sarah bought a bike to ride (she hadn't riden a bike for 10 years until Christmas) and train on once the Zaskar had been nicked and took that, didn't really take much of a look at the bikes they provided.
Because we've been honest with the Police and insurance are we now screwed?
Sadly, sometimes, lying is the best policy.
Sadly, sometimes, lying is the best policy.
Best as in best for your personal finances? Presumably you also advocate benefit fraud, lying on your CV, avoiding speeding tickets on technicalities, etc? 🙄
Sorry for the bad luck Nick, but are you saying you locked the bike to a rack that can be easily removed from the car? Thats a bit like Camerson locking his bike to the bollard :S
Its a real pain that honest people always end up getting stung by the insurance compannies. It is a sad fact you have to think before you speak to them in order to make sure you dont have hassle claiming. 🙁
I had a bike nicked once. I had locked it to a tree.....about 6 to 8 inch diameter and they cut the tree down to get the bike! It was a pretty pants bike, certainly not worth the effort of cutting down a tree bit the insurers failed to pay out there too. They simply would not believe the tree had been cut down to get at a £250 bike (this was about 1980 so £250 was a decent wedge for a student.)
As everyone has said, I think you are stuffed. Policy wording is usually pretty specific and if you fall outside the strict terms laid out within, then you have no chance.
sadly the only "insurance" in this day and age are numerous big locks and ideally a mean dog. the insurance companys are as a big a bunch of thieves as the guys with boltcroppers.
Not all insurance is the same & not all insurance companies are the same.
Cheers folks, i think ultimately being honest is the right thing to do and it serves as a lesson on complacency, even when you think you are safe. Think I'll try the classifieds and see if we can build him up a replacement bike without breaking the bank.
No all insurance policies are equal:
When at uni I had an old laptop my dad got from work for free. I lent it to my girlfriend and her parents' house was burgled and the laptop was stolen. My parents' insurance coughed up the cash for a replacement computer.
Your company car ins wont pay up because it wasnt on company business. Seems fair enough to me.
Your household insurance wont pay up because the bike doesnt belong to you. I thought this was a basic principle of insurance and liability. For insurance to apply the insured must have a vested interest/ownership in the insured object. Otherwise you could imagine all the fraud if you could insure something that you dont own. RichS, do you know about this or are you asuming that because she has it in her control she therefore has a vested interest. Just because i lend something to someone doesnt mean that they own it.
The girl who borrowed the bikes house insurance wont pay out for essentially the same reason.
The girl who lent out the bike cant get her household ins to pay out as she wasnt looking after the bike at the time.
All of the above seems entirely sensible and doesnt fit in with the title imo.
How about gullable girl lends out bike and dozy friend doesnt look after it well enough.
If i had the loan of someone elses bike, it wouldnt leave my side.
Regardless of the aboe its a real shame that this has happened and i would say that some of the money raised should be used as fair compensation for replacing the bike.
miketually - what probably happened there is the unspecified all risks cover paid out for the laptop. Unspecified all risks doesnt have restrictions on security etc. It just has a value limit which the laptop probably fell under. As it did belong to your dad (regardless of value) then its a correct interpretation for his household insurance to pay out.
Pedal cycles are not covered on unspcified all risks. They are covered under their own section which excludes thefts in this situation
Yeah well the NSPCC have all the money now anyway, still can't see how taking money destined for charity is any less corrupt than lying to insurers, apologies if the title is insulting to insurance companies, I'm sure the'll get over it.
When it's all said and done, we're kicking ourselves for being complacent.
My own insurance would have covered it if it had been stolen from my house, and while it doesn't specifically exclude from a car the policy is worded in such a way that outside of the home only me and my immediate families items are covered.
Bit harsh that clubber, Daily Mail read already?
LOL - I just knew that someone would mention the Mail after that but I still think it's a fair comment in response to suggesting fraudulent insurance claims - it's dishonest, illegal and just plain wrong no matter how inconvenient that might be.
Besides, I suspect that the Mail would fall soundly on the side of people trying to get off speeding tickets on technicalities too (I'm sure they call it a stealth tax 🙂 )
Shouldn't there be a Godwin's Law equivalent for people who lazily throw out "Daily Mail Reader" insults?
> I thought this was a basic principle of insurance and liability.
There is the principle of insurable interest which relates to a financial relationship recognised at law. So you don't have to own something to be obliged to insure it - what has to happen is that the possession of something can be tested in court, and if the court judges that there is an obligation to protect it, then there is an insurable interest.
> For insurance to apply the insured must have a vested interest/ownership in the insured object.
Yes, see above.
> The girl who borrowed the bikes house insurance wont pay out for essentially the same reason.
That's where they're wrong IMO. They're also relying on the wrong part of their policy to exlude cover. Their policy is actually a little unclear (or restrictive) on the exact point of cover and whether it applies, but the exclusions above would apply anyway.
> The girl who lent out the bike cant get her household ins to pay out as she wasnt looking after the bike at the time.
No, she can't claim because the situation isn't covered.
> i would say that some of the money raised should be used as fair compensation for replacing the bike.
Agreed.
Nick,
Was at the event too. Total arse about the bike given that your endeavours were all for charity
Tried to track you down at the event to say hi(after you had stuck you head up on my lights thread) but you were out on the last leg of the GP. I ended up blowing my ring on the start run! Agree that it was a top event - had an absolute blast.
STW came to the rescue with the Trout and Duckman lending us lights for the night biking stage - what nice people they are sending a stranger their kit!
Macgyver
I can't really say much on your situation but it does annoy me that when you pay a fair chunk of money for insurance each year, the insurance companies will do theyre best not to help you out when you need them, and if they do have to act then they scrape together the least amount of money they possibly can for you. I know that it's a business and all that jazz but at the end of the day it all just seems like an utter piss take to me :/
Agree with Rich S after spending a bit of time in claims and doing some CII exams.
IIRC Sheila's Wheels are part of the EUI group (Elephant, Admiral etc) who are experts at avoiding claims. Google insurance complaints and they are the first companies to come up.
Our rear engined car was hit in the back whilst stationary at a roundabout. First it was a write-off. Then 4 weeks later it turned up 'repaired'. Actually all they had done was put a new bumper on over the engine damage (cracked turbo manifold). The odd note of the engine was the giveaway. The company then refused to repair due to it 'being a well known fault'. So well known that 8 dealers hadn't heard of it and the ins co. refused to name their source. Worringly, they also didn't seem the slightest bit bothered about being taken to the ombudsman.
Interesting thing about insurance - if you'd bought a £2.99 handlebar and it failed in the first week of use, someone would be on here preaching "buy cheap, buy twice".
Sheila's Wheels are esure (HBOS group) IIRC...
So if you borrow a bike it's best to make out a bill of sale?
How about contacting GT?
£16K for charity on one of their bikes is good PR and they may be convinced to help - if its a frame at cost rather than retail it's not cost them anything and if you pitch the story right to them they may see it as a good piece of marketing - I'm sure you'd be on here saying how great GT have been?
Worth the cost of a phone call or email.
Badger
Hadn't thought of contacting GT, a kind soul has already offered a Zaskar frame as a starting point (which is pretty damn awesome) but will at least drop GT a line to see what happens.
Had a quick skim through the thread but can't see all these CII types mentioning insurable interest here yet - as in the Marine Insurance Act 1906 - unless you are prejudiced by the loss, you can't insure it - not your bike, not your loss, not covered by your policy.
*ex-claims manager, for reputable companies only. But can no longer afford to insure his bikes 🙁
"IIRC Sheila's Wheels are part of the EUI group (Elephant, Admiral etc"
Sheila's Wheels have nothing to do with EUI.
unless you are prejudiced by the loss
interesting, so if someone lends you a bike and inferes the responsibility for it's wellbeing is with you, it gets nicked, you have to pay for a replacement, are you not prejudiced?
Is there a "legally" binding agreement that says you must pay for any loss? If yes, then it is covered, if you only feel a moral obligation to pay, that is not covered.
You may feel that your insurance company has a moral obligation, but the law of contract which your policy is based on does not. Same thing, different perspectives.
Good insurers pay valid claims, and charge premiums to cover those costs.
I don't feel they have a moral obligation, I'd just like to find a legitimate way to minimise the impact of having to replace the bike, it's not unreasonable to at least explore all the possibilities, if nothing else I have a better understanding of how these things all work 🙂
Swadey, try reading up a few posts. Also, i'm surprised at your second post. You're mixing your arguments up between an individual's obligation to care for 3rd party property in their care and control and a non existent point about an insurer's moral obligation to pay out. Totally different points and one of them is most definitely insurable!
Rich s
Just thought i would comment that its nice to see someone passing comment who actually knows his stuff. Its about 15yrs since i started studying ACII but tbh i lost interest and got out of it.
I kinda understand your comments but insurable interest is a bit vague when it comes to something that is loaned to someone else. Surely if , as you say they can prove their interest, then it should then be notified to the insrance company to have valid cover.
Just seen swadeys comment (I think he did the same as me and didnt read back enough).
Is this an insurance claims AGM or something. I used to be a claims handler for a multinational broker. Hated every god damn minute of it, except for the monthly trips to London which at the age of 18 were quite an eye opener.
TLH. I'm not acii but work in the industry and care about what i do!
It's probably easier to think about this in context. Say you're out on a ride and you lend your bike to a mate for a quick test ride. He jumps off a cliff and snaps the frame. The bike is not his. There has been no contract between you to say he must replace it. He could therefore hand it back and walk away, agreed?
So, you would take action against him as your bike was in his care and control and you have suffered financial loss. Because that situation is probably enforceable at law, his household insurance policy may respond and pay out. Your own policy may even pay out and opt to recover money from him/his insurers. This is subrogation.
The point has been made a few times in this thread about quality and value for money, sadly most marketing is around saving money at the time of purchase, not looking at what cover you need or the likelihood that the insurer will pay out 🙁
I'm typing this on my phone which makes it hard to edit so apologies if this is a little brief. I will check back tomorrow if you want to know more.
[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insurable_interest ]insurable interest Wikipedia[/url] which has quite a good first paragraph.
Now, if I'm out riding with a group of people I have an insurable interest in my bike but no one elses - I will suffer no financial loss if they crash/have it stolen. However, IMO, if I have borrowed a bike and am using that then I have an insurable interest in that bike as it's in my control and I'm responsible for it - if it's stolen then I can face a financial loss. It's the same if you hire a car. I don't think you need to have anything formal in place.
But, now comes the tricky bit and without reading the policy wording(s) it's difficult to give a definitive answer. Your policy might cover you for "your possessions" while away from the house which obviously negates you borrowing something off someone and automatically having it covered but it might cover items "you are responsible for". But, you could insure the bike you've borrowed as you have an insurable interest in it - ie. you could specify it on your policy and have cover but in the above example you couldn't specify a friends bike that they were riding.
I would suggest ...
your friend who borrowed the bike "might" be covered under their household policy as they have an insurable interest
the person who owns the bike "might" be covered under their policy but if their insurer pays up then they might claim off your friend who borrowed the bike as they were in charge at the time.
EDIT - I think this corresponds with the above post which got in first as I was typing this up !!!!
So if I get the gist of what Richs says; if the owner of the bicycle makes a claim against the person who borrowed the bike to recover his property, then the insurance can kick into action?
Thanks Rich. Just remembered why i got out of insurance. I am already bored (Not by you btw).
not quite. If an insurer pays a claim then they look to see if they can recover their costs off someone. In this case the owner claims off his insurance. They pay. Then the insurance company goes after the person who was riding the bike to get their money back.
Just remembered why I got out of insurance. I am already bored
I find it a really interesting subject. Especially at a crowded bar. Start talking to someone about holidays, enquire if they have travel insurance and if they don't then go on about how they need it as soon as they've booked the holiday. You'll soon find people make way for you and you're at the front of the bar being served !!!!!
Thank **** i didn't have to type another answer out. Ta daveGr!
Sad thing is TLH, i find liability absolutely fascinating... Shoot me now 😉