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Not sure what the point of this post is other than venting.
Cycling with our 2 young kids through our village to school this morning, single file with kids in front of me. The road is wide enough for two cars to pass comfortably, but definitely not wide enough for 2 cars + bike.
There's a car coming the other way, and I hear a car approaching from behind so assume they're going to wait. I very quickly realise that unbelievably they're going to go for it even though there very clearly isn't space. She ends up squeezing past my 8yo with just inches to spare. I screamed some very regrettable language so loudly that I still have a headache, but the she didn't stop or even slow down.
Sure enough, it's one of the mums from my son's class. I clocked where she'd parked and was intending to give her a firm, if more polite, appraisal of her driving after drop-off. As it was, she came and apologised to me, with some incoherent explanation about not realising there was a car there. I didn't not accept her apology and instead expressed disbelief that she hadn't seen the car, and suggested that she needed to think when driving.
The thing that bugs me most is that this wasn't an aggressive move, or someone being optimistic thinking they'd get through before the car coming the other way, or even someone who hadn't spotted the two small kids in front of me. It was just someone not thinking at all.
I just don't understand how people can be so awful at driving, and more, how as parent of a young child you can be so utterly careless when driving around other small children. I just don't get it.
Last half term my son was back at school, and I switched to having him ride on the road through the village rather than the pavement as there was less traffic and it avoided social distancing awkwardness with pedestrians.
There are many driveways that cross the pavement, and I've always been very nervous about the risk of people pulling out from them so have carried on with this this term, but obviously there's more traffic, and with two of them it's much harder to keep all three of us close together.
I'm conscious that if there had been a collision, there would probably be people questioning why they were on the road, but they're both very good riders and can and did hold a perfectly straight line. I naïvely assume that with the majority of people passing us being other parents they'll be extra careful and considerate when passing (plus, if you're passing us it means that whilst you might still be late, you're not last so you can chill out and stop rushing).
That's turned into quite a long and pointless ramble, but I just need to vent.
Nightmare.
Not criticising at all, but in that situation you need to be out far enough that the clown cannot pass you, if you give them half a chance they'll pass.
Well done for not going off on one at her though.
I genuinely thought we were! Some pipe work a few years ago has marked a nice "track" a sensible distance from the kerb, and the kids ride on that rather than hugging the kerb, and I ride a bit wider out than that.
But you're right, the fact that they tried it means I need to be further out.
I'm the same when the young ones are on the road, they are always in front so I can give (shout) instructions. I'll always cycle further out into the road, than either of them are, so the car coming behind has to give a wide berth or I get hit first!! Speeds and impatience has been increasing recently...
Shocking, yes, but it's a good argument for 'taking the lane' when necessary. People tend not to drive straight over you when you are in front of them, but the are quite likely to squeeze past when they think you're just something in the gutter.
And similar to above, I ride behind my kids and a good deal further out - and whenever I hear a car I turn around and try to make eye contact. This makes a big difference.
Glad you are all ok and that she at least acknowledged her mistake.
ride on the pavement with kids.
just too dangerous on the roads. Worrying about who is to blame is pointless when somones been injured.
Not nice, but as above, on sections of road where it isn't safe to pass, make it clear that you are commanding that bit of road space.
I always remember TfL reccommdations that bus lanes should NOT be between 3.2 and 3.7m. less than 3.2, the overtake is clearly not on, above 3.7 there was room. Between the two, bad judgement calls were made. Close off the gaps you don't want people to use.
I'm going to guess she was driving an Audi Q5. A white one. Classic mumsy idiot machines.
ride on the pavement with kids.
just too dangerous on the roads. Worrying about who is to blame is pointless when somones been injured.
I get your line of thinking, but at school in and home time, when there's kids and parents on said pavement, then it's not on really.
The school run brings out the inner idiot in so many people. Well done for not turning into one and keeping calm.
I get your line of thinking, but at school in and home time, when there’s kids and parents on said pavement, then it’s not on really.
why so? its not like your tramming along at pace?
Not quite a Q5, but a completely stereotypical nondescript identikit SUV. If I hadn't clocked the reg, there's no way I could have picked it out when I got to school 🙂
just too dangerous on the roads. Worrying about who is to blame is pointless when somones been injured.
I agree completely with the second bit, but despite (or perhaps until... I haven't decided) today's incident, I genuinely believe that it's safer on the road due to the risk from cars emerging from driveways.
Plus, there's only a pavement on one side of the road. This means that on the way to school, I can put the kids on the pavement, and I can ride on the road forcing drivers to slow down and/or give space.
Coming the other way, I can't, and once you're on the pavement you're as good as not there. Drivers will happily pass each other at the speed limit leaving absolutely no allowance for the possibility of people falling into the road, something which my son managed a few years ago.
That's awful and unfortunately the sort of thing that I'm seeing more and more often. Selfish, self-absorbed people.
Was akin to the idiocy I saw at Bedgebury yesterday where loads of cars were driving at 20-30mph around the car park. The place was full of people. Why anyone would think that anything above 5mph is acceptable in that situation is beyond me.
I’m conscious that if there had been a collision, there would probably be people questioning why they were on the road,
Hopefully more people questioning why the driver hit the kids though.
As said above, don't be shy of owning the road. I always ride in primary position quite close to my kids. This forces cars to go wide. I do however make a point of pulling in a waving cars on when it is clear opportunity to overtake. Not your fault though, idiots will be idiots whatever you do.
I’m the same when the young ones are on the road, they are always in front so I can give (shout) instructions. I’ll always cycle further out into the road, than either of them are, so the car coming behind has to give a wide berth or I get hit first!! Speeds and impatience has been increasing recently…
Very much this, additionaly if I judge a car coming up behind might try something stupid with oncoming vehicles or road furniture I'll pull right out into the road so they can't physically get past me without running me over and then wave them through when the danger is past.
This fills me with terror. I get my lad to ride on the path to school for the most part for the very reason that people just do not think. I was put over the bonnet by a distracted mum a couple of Xmas's back, so am perhaps even more twitchy as a result.
I'll happily take the wrath of pedestrians rather than my son taking the passenger door of a SUV.
It was just someone not thinking at all.
That is the root cause of a lot of our traffic problems. And cyclists are not immune to it either.
You did nothing wrong. Pavements are for pedestrians. Maybe you could have been in a more primary position, maybe not. Keep on doing the right thing, only you know your kids and the roads involved.
why so? its not like your tramming along at pace?
Exactly, you'll be going at walking pace, so will end up just pushing the bikes, kinda pointless really. If I was walking young kids to school and a parent was cycling with kids on the pavement, I'd be having a word, wouldn't you?.
Pedestrians aren't really the issue. The kids have had bells, slowing down, and manners hammered into them so it's not a problem, although I'm conscious that it must be a little annoying for other parents rushing their kids to school on foot to need to keep stepping aside.
As for "tramming along", there is a little dip on the way there that gets used as a Vmax test, if it's clear. We've seen 20mph with a tailwind.
I wouldn’t worry about screaming at idiots, it might help them remember.
Something similar happened to me and the kid when we had our cargo bike. I screamed, a lot, at someone who came frightenly close to taking us out. It turned out to be one of the school dads.
When I got to the school gates I apologised for getting Mamma Bear on him but when someone nearly kills my kid then nature takes over. Did he understand that it was a primal instinct to react like that? He did, and then the lightbulb went off that he’d caused it with his driving. He was much better for the next year or two but then last week I saw him sail through a red light 200m from school.
so long as they were at a reasonable pace then no i wouldnt be bothered.
Im taking mine to school on bike. I dont think its safe on the road at all and use the pavement. I think society is so anti bike (although its improved a little recently) that if me and my child were to get killed the most the driver would get is a telling off. Ive even had "punishment passes" with her in a trailer. Some people are dicks and im not taking that gamble im afraid.
Not thinking is the cause of so many accidents and its almost impossible to eradicate. Its too big an ask to expect drivers to stay focused 100% on driving when its so routine and their minds are easily distracted so you just have to assume everyone else is an idiot to minimise the risk.
This isn't to excuse poor driving in any way, it's just a self preservation strategy.
That's your call, 100%.
I'm of the opinion that the road is a shared space, the pavement isn't, drivers need to understand this, and seeing folk cycling on a busy pavement reinforces the ridiculous thought that they own the ****in road.
After the event, an apology is all you can hope for, so at least you’ve got that.
Anyone who’s done a driver’s awareness course will know that you can’t change people’s driving.
As a bit of balance, saw this van driver [b]patiently waiting[/b] behind 3 kids on bikes on this busy road this morning. Not sure if he saw me but I waved a thank you as I rode past the other way.
Stupid camera lens was mucky, so unfortunately I can't see the livery, I would email them complimenting the driver otherwise.
Amateur school run bad driving. Last year one of the mums at our daughters' primary crashed into the back of a stationary bus, veered across the road, pavement and into a wall. This happened 200m short of the school. Then she got arrested for drink driving at 9am.
Some people's lives are absolutely dumpster fires and their driving can reflect that.
As I say, the main reason I choose the road is because I think, on balance, it's safer (although only on one of the two roads to school). Some of the driveways are so blind it's ridiculous.
Anyone who’s done a driver’s awareness course will know that you can’t change people’s driving.
Maybe. I think in this instance she genuinely doesn't know how to drive. As in, she doesn't know how to pass bikes safely, and might respond to training. As opposed to the "speed limits don't apply to me because I'm a good driver" brigade.
Its too big an ask to expect drivers to stay focused 100% on driving when its so routine and their minds are easily distracted
It's not too much to ask. Driving through a village near a school is EXACTLY the time to be concentrating on your driving as hard as you can.
For the sake of balance, I should point out that you and your kids don’t pay road tax, you don’t have insurance, you should have to pass a test and have a number plate on your bike. You jump red lights, kill pedestrians and are a bloody menace.
That's great dezb, shame you can't get in touch and be positive.
Same here with my kids school, also in a village. The number of horns, close passes, etc we’ve had...
There’s no joined up thinking, or at times, any think going on at all.
They’re dropping their kids off at school, but are late so they drive at 40 in a 20, NEAR THE BLOODY SCHOOL!
70%+ of all cars at my school are SUVs. More than 30% are of the >2.5t category.
Get a camera and report the useless ****s to the police.
Just report white van man who tried to sandwich me between a parked van and his, done deliberately with aggressive high revs forcing me to slide toward the back of the parked one to avoid pulling out.
He sat kindly on a green light presumably waiting to have an argument, but I just remained at a distance and took a picture and reported him when I got home. If I'd have pulled out to pass that van I'd have been seriously injured at best.
Doubt anything will come of it.
Braindead cagers- place them on a motorcycle , they would struggle to think for a single minute alone.
the roads are quite literally full of braindead muppets
Not to mention those who never took lessons or a test but just paid for a licence.
I ride on the road with my 4-year old sometimes (very quiet roads through the village). In those instances I ride in an extremely defensive position, just behind but out far enough to be alongside him. That way if he decides to swerve, he'll clatter me rather than any traffic, and there is no way of a car getting through. I sometimes get beeps (he's not very quick) - I once even got a complaint on the local facebook group (haha) but the section is less than half a mile with poor sight lines, so I just stick there till everyone can see (no pavement to go on either way)
I'd join in with my own tale of poor driving and road rage and around children from this weekend, but seeing as it might end up with an assault and due care and attention charge, I'm staying shtumn on the details...
Suffice to say, one driver thinks it's ok to drive straight into a group of children on bikes, having swerved around an adult holding hand up to stop traffic...
People tend not to drive straight over you when you are in front of them
Want to bet? not the sort of thing I'd want to bet my life on let alone the lives of my kids. I've nearly been run off the road a few times by drivers who were coming through no matter what and if it were not due to me riding right into the gutter of the road or even off the road onto the pavement or verge then they'd have had me with no chance of stopping. Some drivers either are ignorant about the width of their cars or are determined to win that game of chicken.
In a fight between you and a car the car will always win. You cannot take the aggressive position when on a bike. Well you can...and you might get away with, it but doesn't take alot for it to quickly become a nasty situation, and it only needs to happen once. Rather you than me.
Personally I'll always yield to a car and call them a few choice words under my breath once I've survived the encounter. And wouldn't be taking my kids on the road during rush hour...not at the ages they're at currently at least. Life is too short to get angry about it or take them on or take silly risks putting your life into other peoples hands. Put it down to 'dicks being dicks' and crack on.
the only times I have had a dangerous overtake is when I have not been concentrating and ridden too close to the kerb. Had a good few like this - never had one when taking the lane.
If I was walking young kids to school and a parent was cycling with kids on the pavement, I’d be having a word, wouldn’t you?
Round here, and in most other places, there are no cycleways, only shared pavements. Some of the narrowest pavements are the ones explicitly signed as shared.
But if you're going to get anywhere on these you need to join them up with stretches where you choose between the carriageway or a bit of pavement that doesn't have little blue circular signs (but are in all other respects no different).
In our case one of those roads is one of the busiest and almost certainly the most dangerous one in town (a 30mph road where I've seen multiple cars on their roofs, one embedded in a wall, and plenty more). Technically the shared stretch of pavement starts at the most dangerous crossroads in town (regular collisions, the most recent one fatal—and yes, still in a 30 limit), which would involve the most ludicrous manoeuvre to get from the road to the shared pavement.
Anyway, pretty much everyone here who cycles with kids uses the pavements and I've never encountered an issue or a confrontation in the 6 years ours have been riding their own bikes to school. We're considerate, I rarely see anyone else on a bike who isn't, and it's all friendly, even at school run time when the pavements and shared paths are rammed. So, here at least, the most common answer to "wouldn't you?" is a resounding "no".
Let's face it, the council is allowed to get away with not building cycling infrastructure by just directing people to ride on pavements—it's only that little blue circular sign that represents the fine line between legitimised local authority incompetence and citizen-on-citizen confrontation.
never had one when taking the lane.
My eldest just started secondary school and he's riding solo (well with a couple of friends). I've ridden with him a couple of times at the start of term and it was really quite depressing how close someone in an SUV is prepared to get to an 11 year old on a bike. Now eldest is a fairly handy/cool bike rider, a 30km ride with a couple of thousand feet of climbing is comfortably within capability, he's ridden on the road since he was 5 gradually progressing up in levels of busy. He knows how to handle a bike, he can knock out steady double figures on the flat even with a school bag on and he's had me teaching and leading by example both primary and secondary plus educating him while a passenger in the car on blind spots, driver behaviours and habits.
At that age he shouldn't have to force primary to make someone wait to pass him safely (yes I know strictly age isn't relevant but seriously if you cannot take care round children then there's something really wrong with you) - and even with my long term investment in giving him those skills it is still hard for him to take that kind of confidence and ability to control your environment immediately to heart as he sets out on his own - it will come and he's beginning to "get it" and its right he is cautious while he expands his roadcraft but it is taking time.
I've told him if he starts to recognise repeat close passers I'm going to tail them down the road with the Go-Pro and start pushing the local Police to bring in some enforcement.
the only times I have had a dangerous overtake is when I have not been concentrating and ridden too close to the kerb. Had a good few like this – never had one when taking the lane.
You have been very lucky then. Most of my rides involves a series of s bends a couple of miles from my house. Narrow country road, no pavement, 2 blind bends with a 20 metre straight between them.
About every other ride someone will overtake me either on the corner or in the short stretch before the next corner. This is with me riding right up against the white line meaning they have to squeeze past with them 100% on wrong side of road.
Now again the driver will beep and shout "why are you riding in the middle of the road?"
This is also in an area where horses or cows could just be standing around the corner. I also drive these roads so know fully that you cannot see anything that could be coming.
but seriously if you cannot take care round children then there’s something really wrong with you
I agree with this, but what interests me more is why a driver makes the decision to squeeze past a cyclist, particularly a child.
I do think that the vast majority of drivers haven't been cycling on a road in many years. They just don't relate to the activity.
I think many feel the pressure to rush everywhere, such tight timetables of work, school, life. Constantly running late.
Many drivers are very used to squeezing through gaps - and apply that even when a cyclist is around.
Add on top dodgy cycling and walking walking infrastructure.
We've designed our towns and cities without children in mind. We've a generation who are not out playing on the streets. Therefore drivers and public are less used to seeing children everywhere they go.
Report it to the school - maybe with a bit of blurb quoting the highway code. Hopefully they'll stick it in a newsletter and it'll raise awareness.
Hopefully they’ll stick it in a newsletter and it’ll raise awareness.
Knowing a lot of schools I wouldn't be surprised if they mainly said "don't forget to wear a polystyrene hat".
I think many feel the pressure to rush everywhere, such tight timetables of work, school, life. Constantly running late
Indeed, I await the member of this very place who justifies such behaviour around schools because he's 'time poor'.
Knowing a lot of schools I wouldn’t be surprised if they mainly said “don’t forget to wear a polystyrene hat”.
100%. If there's one thing to stop kids wanting to cycle to school, its a school mandated helmet. What do you do with it all day (currently OK as Dad escorts them, I'm thinking more secondary school).
I agree with this, but what interests me more is why a driver makes the decision to squeeze past a cyclist, particularly a child.
I do think that the vast majority of drivers haven’t been cycling on a road in many years. They just don’t relate to the activity.
Some drivers will have genuinely no idea that a close squeeze is an issue. I mean they didn't hit you so what's the problem?
Get the school to publish this:
On the TDF rest day program yestarday there was a quick interlude from Chris Boardman about the uptake of cycling in lockdown, LTN's and cycling in the UK going forward. There were many shots of him cycling around local roads etc not wearing a helmet, clearly done on purpose.
The more we chip away at the fallacy that helmets and hi-vis are the best way to save lives the better.
Some drivers will have genuinely no idea that a close squeeze is an issue.
Agreed, although I don't think that's what happened in this particular case. I think she started to overtake because Must Overtake Bike. By the time she was alongside me I think she realised the problem, but it still didn't occur to her that backing off and tucking back in was the safer solution.
Although if drivers had it drilled into them that you overtake on the other side of the road, it's possible she wouldn't have tried in the first place.
I've ridden on the roads with my kids for a number of years and one thing which I no longer do is wave a car passed.
If i'm riding further out in a protective position, i'll pull in a bit when i belive its safe for them to pass ( more like single file, than 1.5 width ) - but i dont wave them past... its their call if they want to pass or not and if they can see safely.
Knowing a lot of schools I wouldn’t be surprised if they mainly said “don’t forget to wear a polystyrene hat”.
But the point is, you won't know unless you ask them to act. I can only speak for our school but they are actually really good at communicating with parents, calling out selfish behaviour and coming up with solutions.
So in the OP's position I would prepare something that they could drop into comms easily then have a meeting with the head to discuss. Maybe their head is rubbish and doesn't take the care of pupils seriously enough, but IIRC the safety of pupils on their journey to school is a part of their remit and responsibility. Am I wrong?
I’ve ridden on the roads with my kids for a number of years and one thing which I no longer do is wave a car passed.
I agree. Sometimes when driving I've followed a cyclist who has waved me past when there's zero chance they could see for a safe distance down the road. It's very tempting to take the wave as a green flag rather than engaging your brain to decide whether it's actually clear/safe or not, especially if you're at the head of a queue of traffic.
Anyway. What a nightmare for you, OP. My kids are too small to cycle to school currently, and luckily school is close enough that it's probably quicker walking. I'm not sure if I'd be brave enough to cycle them on the road to school: although it's mostly quiet, there's a very busy main road to cross, and then the dodgems up near school to contend with.
Although if drivers had it drilled into them that you overtake on the other side of the road, it’s possible she wouldn’t have tried in the first place.
This.
Sometimes when driving I’ve followed a cyclist who has waved me past when there’s zero chance they could see for a safe distance down the road.
I had that recently. Held back through a series of blind bends, ignoring the waves and waiting for a safe opportunity (and was right to do so as, lo and behold, one or two vehicles appeared).
In the end the guy on the bike pulled over and shouted through my window some sort of suggestion that I should learn to drive. Regrettably I gave him the bird as I drove past (regrettable partly because that’s not normally how I roll, but also because he probably though I was miffed at being held up rather than because I thought his opinion was ****).
I mean, I know how uncomfortable it is to be plodding along with drivers plodding behind, but at the end of the day it’s better than having a head-on crash unfold alongside you.
I never wave anyone past. If they can see, they don’t need me to; if they can’t, they shouldn’t be trusting someone else’s judgement anyway.
The only waving I do is a ****er sign after the driver has close passed or overtake on a blind bend.
Some of them even see my wave and stop for a chat about it.
About every other ride someone will overtake me either on the corner or in the short stretch before the next corner
then riding wide has done its job - no car coming the other way, plenty of room for y9ou to dive out of the way. A close pass is when they squueze past when a car is coming the other way
I think she started to overtake because Must Overtake Bike.
I think a lot of drivers feel imaginary peer pressure from the drivers following them to get the overtake done quickly and not hold anyone up.
Teaching my two to drive at the moment, and regularly have to tell them not to change their safe driving to accommodate the asshole tailgating them.
Most of my rides involves a series of s bends a couple of miles from my house. Narrow country road, no pavement, 2 blind bends with a 20 metre straight between them.
Sounds familiar. I have lost count of the number of drivers around here who can magically see through drystone walls and hedges when planning their overtakes.
I used to ride everywhere with the kids, progressed from trailer to tag along to own bikes to them now riding solo.
I can honestly count the number of close passes or incidents on one hand. Not sure if we have just been lucky but the vast majority of drivers round here are very good, especially when they see kids around
ride on the road with my 4-year old sometimes (very quiet roads through the village). In those instances I ride in an extremely defensive position, just behind but out far enough to be alongside him. That way if he decides to swerve, he’ll clatter me rather than any traffic, and there is no way of a car getting through.
This was absolutely my approach
I think a lot of drivers feel imaginary peer pressure from the drivers following them to get the overtake done quickly and not hold anyone up.
You can’t pass your test without fulfilling this criterion. You’re conditioned to having a queue of drivers behind while your instructor tells you to “make progress” because the test demands it. Anecdotally I know at least one person who failed their test for being cautious; whereas I passed mine with several “minor” points relating to things like approaching junctions too fast.
If I’m second in line behind someone on a bike I leave a big gap to try and make it clear I’m not expecting the driver in front to rush it.
If I’m second in line behind someone on a bike I leave a big gap to try and make it clear I’m not expecting the driver in front to rush it.
Me too. Nudge psychology at its finest. Meanwhile the bloke behind me is blowing steam out of his ears because I've left a gap and made the queue untidy.
I mean, I know how uncomfortable it is to be plodding along with drivers plodding behind, but at the end of the day it’s better than having a head-on crash unfold alongside you.
Aye, true enough. Recently heading up Snake Pass I was waiting behind a cyclist who was grinding his way up the hill. The section of road we were on was twisty and fairly narrow, so this continued for some time. I got a right dirty look from him when I finally overtook, but I'm not sure what he would have wanted otherwise, unless perhaps for me not to have been there 🙂
I’m not sure what he would have wanted otherwise, unless perhaps for me not to have been there
Nail hit on head there, other road users are a nuisance.
then riding wide has done its job – no car coming the other way, plenty of room for y9ou to dive out of the way. A close pass is when they squueze past when a car is coming the other way
Guess I wasn't clear.
I am riding very wide to stop them overtaking me (sometimes because I can hear a car coming) and the fact they still overtake anyway means riding wide has had no effect. They are also close passing as they are squeezing by as the roads are narrow.
A close pass is when they squueze past when a car is coming the other way#
Duh, so it's not a close pass if they pass close but there's nothing coming the other way?? Jeez
I had a close pass this morning, round a blind bend - no kids involved though, so that's fine 😉
then it went into a drive "like, literally" 50 yards up the road so I followed it in. SUggested to the lady driving that her overtake wasn't very safe. She said "no, it wasn't and I apologise" I was a bit taken aback by the lack of defensive blustering abuse that I didn't respond and that seemed to make her fill the silence "I didn't see there was a car coming ... but then it was round a bend wasn't it? Sorry"
Apparently some tiny glimmer of hope for mankind there 🙂
You can’t pass your test without fulfilling this criterion. You’re conditioned to having a queue of drivers behind while your instructor tells you to “make progress” because the test demands it. Anecdotally I know at least one person who failed their test for being cautious; whereas I passed mine with several “minor” points relating to things like approaching junctions too fast.
That's not what "making progress" means at all. If you make a dangerous overtake on a test you will fail. The point is that you overtake if and when it is safe and sensible to do so. Otherwise you get the conga line following the old duffer doing 35 in a national.
If you make a dangerous overtake on a test you will fail.
Yes, and I didn’t say otherwise: I didn’t say you get taught to make reckless manoeuvres, my point was that you get conditioned to drive in a way that avoids holding other people up, including seeing the speed limit as the default “correct” speed in decent conditions. And this sense of needing to not hold people up inevitably influences decisions to the point where people reduce their safety margins out of a sense of (perceived or real) pressure. But this conditioning doesn’t really account for the logical inevitability that the people behind you will simply have a different (and higher) view to yours as to what is an appropriate speed. As your final remark neatly demonstrates.