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Hmm, sounds like they are all slightly different then. Mine is a T27 (or T30 I can't remember now) Torx fitting on the drive side.
I'm just going to have to give it some muscle and hope it's ok.
Rscott, of course they care. And as a Saracen dealer I think is is a real shame that you've had a bad experience. There is no excuse for it really but they have been rather busy of late and sometimes things do slip through the cracks. They are in the process of sorting a permanent replacement at the moment which should sort the issue once and for all. As I have previously stated the problem comes from the bushing supplier changing the spec without telling Saracen. This has led to tolerance issues which causes the play.
If you let me have your contact details I'm happy to speak with them and make sure you receive some replacement parts as soon as they are available. Or speak to your dealer and ask them to get it sorted for you.
For what it's worth, in my experience, Madison/sportline are one of the better and more accommodating companies to deal with for warranty issues.
psycorp.How did you get on.Gathering all info for when mine go and have to fit the problem solving solution set. 😉
we were given some of the latest bushes to fit in a customers bike and so far no problems, about three weeks old
Rob
Not got around to it yet. Will give it a bash this morning probably.
No issue here yet. In Heathrow on Way to chamonix. Will batter the bike a nd see.
Right, I've now disassembled the linkage on my 16x and replaced all the bushings. I'm a bit concerned though. In the pic below you can see that one of the bushings has far more wear than all the rest. This bushing came out of the top part of the linkage which is secured with the reverse threaded bolts.
[img] 
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Worn bushing in place:
[img] 
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I've mostly reassembled the bike now, I've got the lower shock eyelet to bolt in and one of the reverse thread linkage bolts to fit. Problem is the last linkage bolt is out of alingment by a mm, possibly 2, photos below:
[img] 
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Whole linkage view:
[img] 
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Is the whole rear end assembly wonky on this frame????? That would explain the uneven wear on the bushing.
O deary deary.This does explain a lot with this bushing issue psycorp.
Have you tried slackening everything off then aligning the whole lot together.
I'd be firing those pics off to the shop bud.First time iv'e actually seen the bushing out and they seem to be made out of brie.
RobHughes
Already fired off the same pics to Rush Cycles where I bought the frame. I haven't torqued all the bolts up properly yet, was waiting until it was all back together to nip it all up.
I've put a bit of pressure through the linkage and it's not moving anywhere near enough to line up. I certainly aren't going to force the bolt in as the thread for them is in the rear triangle itself.
It's not looking good and I think the frame will have to go back.
Same frame is sitting in the stand awaiting build.Fingers double crossed but at least the new proper bushing will be available very soon that is if my frame isn't twisted. 😕
Have you tried undoing completely the bottom bolt,do the tops first as you'll get a bit of leverage on the bottom one.Just to get you going until the frame goes back.. 😥
I'm a bit reluctant to force it back together Rob. To my mind the frame is faulty. I've had plenty of FS frames over the years and never had one out of alignment anywhere near as far as this. I also have a NP Mega, which I can ride in the mean time, and the linkage on that fits together like a glove.
I'll leave it as it is for now and wait for the shop to get back to me.
Yer good call.FWIW i have to bend my spicy seat stays to get the X link back together after bearing changes but that runs on bearings and not a Philadelphia type arrangement. 😀
I'm sure we'll all get there in the end....I hope.
I'm sure that bushings are fine as long as everything is straight, within tolerance and loaded evenly.
Any of you lot got a pic of the bb mounted cable guide off any of the Ariels or got one that you've taken off to go 1x for beer money.
The 16 x frame didn't come with one and need to go 2x10.
Haven't a clue which one it is.
Cheers gang. 😉
Sorry - black guide on black pile of crap, I mean frame (and its locked to a ground anchor to limit the misfortune of some poor unsuspecting thief steaing it) but it's the 'normal' type. This is a 2015 151.
Hahaha.Cheers Tom.. 😆
Hard to tell from your pic.One of these.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Shimano-SM-SP17-M-Bottom-Bracket-Gear-Cable-Guide-/261972241319?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item3cfec32ba7
I believe so.
cheers bud..
My 16x is being picked up and will be on it's way back to Saracen tomorrow after they were sent the pics earlier this week.
We'll see what they say.
Well I managed to get all my bushings replaced with ones Madison sent out to my lbs (brand new bushings fitted correctly by a bike mechanic) but two rides (totalling 30 miles) later I am noticing significant play again. I'm starting to wonder if the problem goes beyond the bushings - I think there might be something about these frames that needs to be looked at... I don't really know that the next step is seeing as I already have the latest bushings installed... I would avoid this frame is you are thinking of buying one which is a shame as they ride nicely.
I was told that the "long term fix" bushes were 8-10 weeks away from being available as they were currently being tested, and that was about 2 weeks ago.
I would assume the bushes you have been sent are the grey/black kind, rather than the cream coloured original ones in the pics above, and so aren't the one that are meant to fix the problem once and for all. Assuming they do actually fix the problem.............. when we get them.
@psycorp, i went through exactly what you are going through now 2 years ago. Madison ended up sending me a new frame through my LBS. It did take a while for them to sort it though. i tried to get the correct torque figures for the pivot bolts but had no luck. im not a fan of norglide bushes myself. The main problem was that the frame pivot bolts are aluminium and are tapped into the aluminium rocker. If the bolts pick up in the thread your screwed and its near impossible to remove them. Make sure a proper anti seize for aluminium is used on the threads.
I'm not particularly impressed by the design of the upper linkage either. having the reverse bolts threaded into the rear triangle itself is asking for trouble. Like you say, if that thread gets crossed for any reason it's new rear triangle or new frame time. That's precisely the reason why I didn't force my frame together when I found it was out of alignment after replacing the bushings.
rotary.Iv'e just got my 16x frame built but before i did i slackened off all the linkage bolts to asses what torque was placed on the edge of those norglides.
First put a small aligning mark or the bolts and linkage then cracked them all off(thread locked)
Then torqued them back up with a calibrated torque wrench to align the marks back up.
Top two where miles apart so must have been just banged in.
I have used me superior brain torquing values to get them to where i think they all should be. 😀
Interesting reading
[url= http://www.bearings.saint-gobain.com/uploadedFiles/SGbearings/Documents/Norglide-Bearings-brochure.pdf ]link[/url]
According to that document Rob torque values on pins "shouldn't be too high". I'm no engineer but example values of 0.3N to 1.4N were quoted. I've no idea what that is in a practical sense but given that stem bolts are usually quotes to a max of 5Nm of torque 0.3 to 1.4N can't be very tight.
Given that I had to use a half inch socket wrench to remove the centre linkage bolt on my frame I'm going to take a stab and say that these frames aren't assembled to exacting standards.
Yer the main ones on mine psycorp where silly tight but that's to crack the thread lock.Iv'e just snugged up all of them not too tight at all.
In my brain the way the flange of the norglide rotates against the swingarm,bottom mount and linkage aluminium shouldn't require a great amount of torque at all.
If my frame gets replaced I'll probably be doing exactly the same as you rob.
just seems to make sense,in my mind anyway.Some one will be along to comtradict me no doubt as it IS stw... 😀
In reply to a previous message.
The bushings I was sent to fix the the problem were indeed the dark gray ones. So am I understanding this correctly..
The bushings that will (apparently) fix the problem with a 2014 frame still haven't been released in the 2nd half of 2015...
Surely they should have tested these frames before selling them as they aren't cheap!
Personally I think everyone who has a dodgy frame should be entitled to a full refund.
psycorp how are we getting on.Just waiting for mine to implode.Any news off them on THAT fix yet.
Ive not read all the posts on this thread so sorry if this has been answered. Ive just replaced the bushings on my son's 14X. The originals lasted about two months before they developed play and I dont expect these ones to last much longer. Does anyone know when Saracen will release the supposedly properly tested ones?
I was on the phone to Saracen today after my Ariel 14X developed play in the rocker that connects the swingarm to the arm that drives the shock. The fella at Saracen said they are totally out of replacement Norglide bushes of any flavour, and they are waiting for new ones. His bike is off the trail too.
He said he hoped they'd arrive in September...
My Ariel is a warranty replacement for a Grapil that snapped and bent. I bought it for a Colorado/Moab trip in October. I will be disappointed if things are not sorted by them.
Whoever designed the torx bolts on the Ariel needs to take a long hard look at themselves. A T27 head bolt! Yeah, we all carry T27 with us on the trail. And let's make the bolt counterintuitive by having to screw it anticlockwise because the bit with the "head" is actually the reverse side of the bolt. Incredible.
The other bolts are impossible to reach with a trail tool like a Crank Bros. Multi 17. It is a sad day when you realise that your tool is not big enough and you have to admit that your wife's tool is bigger with better reach...
A quick update on my situation:
My frame has been returned to Madison/Saracen due to the linkage/rear triangle being out of alignment when I tried to put it back together after replacing the bushes.
I've been without the frame for 3 weeks but still don't know what Saracen are intending to do about it. Apparently it was looked at about 10 days ago, at which time they asked the dealer, Rush Cycles, for more info about the age of the frame etc, but I've heard nothing more since then.
I'm starting to get annoyed about the length of time this is taking and the lack of information getting back to me.
@TroutWrestler What number/email are you speaking to Madison on? I'm starting to wonder if I might get a better response dealing with them direct. My email is in my profile if you'd rather not post it.
Cheers
O dear.With them being out of norglides and your problems psycorp i just hope mine holds out.All good at the moment and it's been well hammered.
Fingers crossed. 😕
I called the Madison number and asked to be put through to the Saracen team. 01908326032.
You could ask Saracen's PR bod via his Instagram account? https://instagram.com/petescullion/
Communication with Saracen (Sportline) on this matter doesn't seem a strong point.
I have been through 3 sets of bushings this month including one set of the supposed "problem solvers". Saracen are adamant that no other bike fitted with these newer bushes have had any problems. They have now accepted the frame should go back to them for further investigation, which is a pain as it has to be stripped down and I have no idea when (or how) the saga might be concluded.
It really does look like they have shot themselves in the foot with this one.
I suppose I should update the thread with my situation.
After just over a month of waiting Saracen finally let me know that they considered my frame to be within tolerance and it had been returned to the retailer. I didn't agree but they are the experts. As it happened I had emailed the retailer to ask for a refund 24 hours earlier as I was tired of waiting, and the lack of information coming back to me was very frustrating.
I must give an honourable mention to Colin at Rush Cycles. He was helpful throughout, didn't bat an eyelid when I asked for a refund, and was very forthcoming in processing it for me. I can thoroughly recommend buying from them to anyone.
I should also mention that I was told the new "final fix" bushes should be available in the next week or two.
Cheers
I had communication directly from Saracen to week to tell me that the new bushes are 3 to 4 weeks away.
I also raised concerns regarding the T27 torx bolts on the Ariel 14, specifically the longevity of the T27 interface in such soft material. I was advised to heat the bolts with near boiling water prior to installation to soften the loctite. This will make installation easier, but I doubt it will toughen the alloy of the bolt.
What a bummer psycorp.
Absolutely loving my 16x and all is well.Definitely have to get my hands on some of the final,final,final fix bushing though. 😀
Latest info to come my direction is that new bushings should be shipping out this week. I'll try to remember to update when they arrive.
I've got a 161 with linkage play. Can't undo the t27 torx bolts that connect the top of the rear swingarm to the linkage, just below the shock shaft. Are these a reverse thread by any chance??
My Ariel 14X has now gone for good. Shame really, bushing nonsense aside it was a good bike for the riding I do.
Transferred all the kit to a Banshee Spitfire frame.
Yes the top 2 bolts in the linkage are reverse thread. Be careful when replacing them as they thread directly into the swingarm material, as you'll see when you take it apart.
To be honest mate I'd just wasn't convinced that I wouldn't continue to have problems with the frame going forward. As you say it's a shame because they do ride very well.
OK, new Norglides arrived this weekend and have been fitted - this is to an Ariel 14X frame. Fitting was dead easy and could be done trailside, or out the boot of a car, which is reassuring for roadtrippers.
I requested and received further info from Saracen regarding torque values for bolts in the suspension set up. The recommended torque values are:
7-9nm for the torx bolts
8-10nm for the hex bolts (linkage axle&washer)
10-12nm for the main pivot bolt
Are these the new,new newer ones TroutWrestler and did you get them direct or from the shop where you got the frame.
Cheers bud
Just spoken to Saracen, very helpful guy. They say the new norglides are due 2nd October, no current stock.
Just a call back from Saracen. They'd made an error yesterday and the new norglides are in stock apparently. Part Number – RNS5169 - RRP £9.99 = apparently 1 pair for 1 single pivot, ie 2 lots needed for the 2 top pivots. He's sent me a picture and they are black. Unavailable through the Saracen website but can be ordered via your local Saracen dealer. I'll order mine tomorrow and let you know..
Bad news.. Me and my mate had the same issues. We've replaced the norglide bushes and 2 rides in we have play again. Frames have been sent back on warranty
It's the bolt or center link that's faulty. mine does it now. Bushing have no wear at all and I got a bag of black ones
Mines been like it 4 years got 2010 model, thought it was the shock bushes changed those, then took the linkage apart all the norglide bushes seemed fine. Put it back together and its never got any worse, I think there is play in the bolts of the shock and frame to. I have never noticed it when riding, in fact it rides great so I am going to leave them.
I'm guessing that as they are split bushes it's the actual linkage tolerances that aren't right? Presumably replacing all of these is more expensive than issuing a few bushes though...
Wonder if one of the posters on this thread was the guy deciding he'd had enough and returning his bike for a refund when I was in Crosstrax Adel back in August 😯
I think it may well be the bore on the centre link that is too large in diameter. I tried both bolts, both were snug in the lower bushes, but loose in the centre ones, leading me to the conclusion that the rocker is out of tolerance.
Wow, 6 months on and this is still an issue?
Madison really are shite, been six months without my Grapil for one reason or other.
I guess the plan is eventually the warranty will run out; problem solved!
The frames are supposed to have a lifetime warranty Tom.
Of course the customer interpretation of "lifetime" may be different to Saracen/Madison's.
Hi. My name is Adam. I finish my adventure with cycling over 8years ago and now want back to riding :). I ridden on "gt chucker", that was dirt bike but now I'm much older :p and looking for full suspension bike.
I take a look on couples models and one of this is Saracen Ariel 151. looks nice and at this moment is reduce price on £1430.
I read some bad opinions about bushings but actually model have a "NorglideTM linkage bushings". That resolve problem? or doesn't help ?
Adam did you still have yours Ariel ?
Thanks for any help.
i found its the bolt in middle of linkage. the sizes vary so much in diameter so a wrap of plumbers tape sorts it. 🙂
Hi!
New to the forum,from norway.
I bought a 2015 Ariel 152 from a friend of mine a couple of months ago and i noticed yesterday That it was play in the linkage. Previous owner has never changed any of them (she weighs 50kg and im 88 so it get alot more beating from me) the play wasnt there when i bought it and a quick message to the dealer and he Will send me new bushings right away. So i kinda have this hope that since it lasted over a year before any play occured,maybe this frame dont have this problem so bad. Did any of you get the new improved bushings? And is it something i should pay any extra attention for when changing them?