[Closed] Saracen Ariel 15x linkage play AGAIN

Saracen use Norglide bushes which should be good for 1000s of miles use... sounds like you have a wonky frame.

i almost hope that is the case as at least there is a reason and a warranty frame should solve it.

Such a fun bike to ride, i don't want to replace it with anything else!!

they also have the facility to adjust the bearings - is it possible that you've mis adjusted, or that there's a degree of settling in first?

[s]bearings[/s] bushings

Are you sure? as far as i can tell there is no adjustment on the bearings or bushings, its a fixed axle with a collet to lock it in place and prevent unwinding.

Did you get this resolved? Got play in mine after 2 months...

My Grapil uses an identical system and the same norglide bushes. I bought a job lot of wider ones from a bearing suplier and change them every month or so as leaving them to wear down results in damage to the pivot axels. The bushes are only about 90p each so worth changing as preventative measure.

But I will never buy a bike with bushes and not bearings again!

One of the lads I go riding with had an Ariel 151, he had the same issue with play in the linkage, Madison replaced the bushes with the new type, within a few rided the play returned so again the bushes were replaced, again withing a few rided it happened again. This time his frame was replaced with a 15x and guess what.... Yip, it happened again, at this point the frame was rejected and he went and bought a Kona, its a shame really as the Ariel was a cracking bike to ride!

The bushings on my 14x have gone after 10 months. I've ordered a bushing kit from my LBS. Does anyone have any fitting instructions? Thanks

fitting is dead easy, just unscrew the bolts and the bushes push out and back in again by hand

Yes, had problems 2013 kili-flyer X, First set of bushings in a single weekend (wet welsh grit), second set lasted a week in the alps, but damaged the aluminium shafts as well.

Replaced the plastic norglide OE bush, with same Ø15.0 diameter, but much longer (17mm instead of 5mm) metal backed ones from a bearing supplier. They seem to be lasting a lot better.
http://simplybearings.co.uk/shop/index.php?cPath=3_4701_4703

Let’s hope Saracen sort it out, great frames otherwise!

Jono

Thanks Dave

I had the same issue with my 152. I bought it in late January 2014 and had the bushings replaced 3 times under warranty 1st one due to under spec. The 3rd set gave up about a month ago so I spoke with an independent bike shop who I know specialise in Saracens. The owner also has an 152 and was keen to help as he thinks they are the best bike ever. After spending a few hours with me and also giving me a lesson for the future he found 1 under spec bushing and the lower shock bushing measured 0.2mm too wide possibly pushing the linkage open very slightly and allowing a bit more play. If your are anywhere near Stockport I recommend going here http://www.ingear-uk.com/. I drove an hour or more to get there and I have since had no issues plus he was a great help.
Good luck.

And another one... after about 100 miles. The instructions for replacing the bolt say 'insert a small allen key and push sideways to break the tolerance fit' or something similar. Can anyone explain this in more detail, as mine isn't budging am I'm reticent to use too much force and damage the swingarm!

Thanks

Tom

My 14x has is heading back to madison after 4 rides.

My 14X frame, bought last September, had the problem after a month or so and had the bushes replaced. I have not ridden it much over the winter but a check at the weekend suggests the problem is back.

Mismatch of spacer/bearings & backends due to component supplier change apparently.

What does that mean for us mean mortals logo, will mine come back fixed or will it just happen again have they managed to resolve the supplier issues do we know?

From what I've been told there are parts produced by one supplier are a little to small to be used with components produced by another supplier which causes issues, but don't quote me on this, our neighbour's boys bikes both same model and age both did the same thing, parts replaced & matched and problem has gone for the last few weeks.

Watching this thread with interest. I've just ordered an Ariel 16x and I'm wondering whether I'll have the same issues. I might contact Madison to ask before I build it up.

I have a 2014 151 Ariel and there is some play in the linkage, trying to work out the best and cheapest fix for it. don't suppose anyone knows a cheap alternative to Norglide...do other bearings fit?

Bearings are bearings? i.e. they come in standard sizes right? Its the tolerances of the frame and triangle etc that can be causing wearing or misalignment?

Personally if I'm reading issues I wouldn't be buying. Coming up to summer do you really want to be thinking about things like this? Plenty more frames out there.

Bearings are bearings?

No, my understanding is it's spacers that cause the issues.

Lovely bikes, just a production issues that can be rectified with fitting of the correct parts as far as I understand,if people are having issues, that are not due to wear and tear of bearings surfaces they should go straight to their dealer to discuss the issues.

Bearings are bearings but bushings are not bearings.

It's not my only bike so I can cope with issues, as long as they are rectified.

The geo of the frame is what I was looking for, barring the issues here people who have them seem to love how they ride, I love the look of the frame and it was a good price, so I took the risk.

It would seem several of us have done as you suggest Loco, in some cases more than once and the problem recurs. Certainly in my case I was told all would be OK as I had the new correct sized bushes fitted but that hasn't turned out to be correct.

My understanding is that it is a mismatch of spacers/shims in the backend, [i]not[/i] bushings, popping round to our neighbours in next day or two will check again exactly what was done to the bikes.

Loco, that would be very helpful to know.

It's not my only bike so I can cope with issues, as long as they are rectified.

Only once have I bought into a frame thats had historic issues- i.e the Meta 5.5 but I knew exactly what I was walking into as it was the improved reinforced version. A crack could happen but it might take months. An issue that sidelines you after a few rides is daft.

Hora, if you look deep enough any frame from any manufacturer will have had issues for a few customers 😉

Totally agree and the internet amplifies problems to a wider audience.

You never keep frames long enough to re-lube the chain, let alone replace bushings Hora. 😉

I cant remember any issues that Ive had with frames and I've owned a fair few for 1+yrs. The only issues that I had was bearing life on Blur4x but that was sorted out very quickly.

The issues that you hear of on the net seem to be focused around one area. The problem is do the manufacturer sort this within a short period or is it heel-dragging/ongoing.

Thats when you know the manufacturer has a problem and ergo the customer aint happy.

Anyway- I'm detracting from the topic now so I'll step back 🙂

@Hora

My risk to take and at the moment I'm comfortable with it, of course that may change. Not sure why you have such an issue with that.

On top of that I'm not sure that the 16x even suffers with this problem. Nobody so far in this thread has even said they own one. I'm just accepting the possibility that there may be an issue as the 14x, 15x, and 16x all use the same suspension design.

My 2015 15x is going back this week after 3 rides/51 miles for play in the linkage.

My brothers 2014 16x frame had linkage play straight out of the box before it was even built up. Replacement frame good so far, but it's only been on a couple of rides.

My riding buddy has the 14x, its only just worn out a set of bushings after nearly 2 years. seems to be this problem is exclusive the the 15- range.

i don't know what you lot are on about about spacers either, there are none!

the play in mine happens where the swingarm meets the "T" shaped part of the linkage, every time.

the only things that could cause that are:

Misaligned linkage part
Misaligned swingarm
Linkage bracket on frame misaligned
excess flex in the swingarm putting too much leverage into the bushing.

I've bought a new frame now (not a Saracen). Shame as the 15x is utterly magic to ride.

I have now swapped out the worn bushes which were visibly damaged for some new ones and still have play. It feels like one of the shafts is too small, causing the premature wear on the old bushes. Because the play is vertical, not lateral I don't believe its a misalignment, but a tolerance issue. If Loco is correct then it would seem and easy fix?

I bought mine second hand and the play developed after about 100 miles, so I'm screwed but it seems the 'warranty' isn't much use anyway...

Definitely won't be buying Saracen ever again!!!

Edit: Bushes are 15mm bore, 17mm outer, 5mm high, 1mm flange, 23mm flange diameter if anyone wants to source their own. Saint Gobain will only sell them in bulk, although if we all club together and change them monthly we could probably use a run of 100,000!

i think they need to make the pivot axles out of steel or at least add some sort of hardened race to them. seems once the bushes go, they chew the axles up and then you are royally screwed.

such a shame though that a bike as awesome to ride as that is flawed.

Sad to hear, but it happens with many brands from time to time.

we had the same thing happen over 2 years with the older /Mythic Banshee frames running the IGUS bushings, and it was a nightmare for both customers and us (freeborn) as the distributor.

customers said the frames (typically the Rune and Spitfire) rode brilliantly, but the back ends would not stay tight, or would be too tight, or constantly chewed bushings and frame components.

At least with Saracen you are dealing with Madison who have the resources to deal with a problem like this in a timely manner.

Had a look at the neighbors bikes, the play was due to bolt/bush mismatch, have been replaced and no play in the linkage for 3 weeks or so now, they ride a lot too.
Did notice one of the bikes has now developed play in the main pivot though.

Really fancy one of these bikes looks ideal, but reading about this issue online has put me off! Surely there must be some happy owners out there?

I spoke to Madison and they say the issue has been resolved on the 2015 bikes.

Can anyone confirm if this is true?

Did they say what the issue is or was?

My 14X is in the dealer workstand for the second time. Apparently the bushing was fine the problem is with a slightly undersized bolt, Madison are sending a correct sized bolt to the LBS for fitting.

Bolt/bush size mismatch, the shoulder of the bush on top link appeared to be a bit off too.
The bikes are 2014 models.

My 2015 15x frame is on its way back from Freeborn after being with Madison, new bushes and bolts apparently. Will get it built up again next week and see how it goes.

Mine too Adam, having said that I was told they had only heard of the issue once or twice before. They've now had the frame more than half of the time I've owned it

I have been offered a 14x as a warranty replacement for a snapped then bent Grapil. Reading the above, I'm a bit nervous.

I had the 14X, it was fine. I thought the flexy rear ends were on the carbon models and I didn't think the 140mm version came in carbon, mine was full aluminium.

I contacted Madison about the play developing in my 2014 15x frame, I was told there is a tolerance issue with the tan coloured norglide bushings that were fitted in those frames. They said they will be sending the new bushings to my local bike shop but due to warranty issues they can only be fitted by a mechanic at a Madison dealership. Madison do not cover the cost of fitting the bushings - I am not pleased with this as under the Sale of Goods Act 1979 goods must be as described, of satisfactory quality and fit for purpose and Madison have stated that the original bushings are not fit for purpose and in my opinion they should cover the post of fitting the correct bushings.

Ariel 14x back from madison with new black bushings, play again after 10km, there now replacing frame but i can only imagine the replacment is going to need the original tan bushings changed imediatly

How do you get hold of them, do you go via your LBS? I'm trying to get some advice on which parts I need to replace but they don't respond to the "contact us" page. I've just replaced the torx bolts and bushings at the top of the linkage (£35). That's stopped those bits coming undone all the time. However there's still loads of play, it looks like it's at the middle axle. I'm wondering if I just need a linkage axle and washer or yet more bushings or even a new main axle. I don't really want to be forking out yet more cash for stuff I don't need.

I've been going through joe at freeborn was i bought it from them, he has been incredible, massive thumbs up to him, but the paper work shows hes sending it to sportline which is a seprate side of madison.
http://www.sportline.co.uk/

Intrigued by these black bushes. Would like to here more experiences with a 15x...

On mine both the axles on the linkage seem the same diameter. I'm wondering if because they are split bushes it's actually the linkage bore itself is not compressing them to the right diameter? Currently mine seems ok but next time I have it apart (probably after the next ride!) I'll get the vernier out.

To the person above considering one, maybe this year's are better, but sadly I can't recommend it based on my experiences.

I've been going through joe at freeborn was i bought it from them, he has been incredible, massive thumbs up to him

+1 on this. Freeborn has become my go to shop when ordering online now.

@adam_h

good to hear Freeborn are sorting problems out for customer. Joe is a good guy with a lot of experience with full suspension frames

Interesting, I've replaced the bushings on my 15X once since I've had it - will see how long they last (was a 2nd hand frame). Dealt direct with Saracen - really good service, very impressed.

Muppet question time - The bushes on the tapered bolt with conical end were fine to swap out, but how do you take apart the single pivot that is on the machined allow linkage hidden behind the front of the rear triangle?

Cheers,

16x frame being returned for refund. Play in linkage again after a few rides. Joe at Freeborn excellent again, no hesitation and offered refund straight away without me even asking.

2015 15x frame ok after a couple of rides since coming back from Madison, but will be keeping a close eye on it.

14x been back several times even had frame replaced and new bushings in it.The amount of time i have now spent trying to resolve this and without a bike i will never be buying a Saracen again and will activly avoid buying from freeborn. the customer service was excelent to start but they soon got bored and fed up which made me get arsey plus long time to respond to emails/phone calls and turn around times were never the 2 weeks max i was told.

Just to bump this.
What's the consensus on buying one of these frames.Has anyone got a good one or are all the linkages floored.
Thinking about buying a 2014 16x frame.
Loco your personal opinion please. 😉

Had my 2014 16x getting on for 3 months now. Bought it new. All seems ok so far. Only clunk I'm getting is topout from my Lyriks. Must strip them down......

Took my 16x out of the shed today and felt the dreaded clunk from the rear. I just checked and I placed the order on 5th May so the bushings have lasted squarely 2 months.

Sad times.

Just had a bit of an investigation and it seems the play is around the bolt in the middle of the large cast linkage part.

I knew some 15x's had issues with the bushings before I bought it so can't complain really. I will, however, keep this updated with my experiences with Saracen/Rush Cycles warranty and customer service.

robhughes
Just to bump this.
What's the consensus on buying one of these frames.Has anyone got a good one or are all the linkages floored.

I wouldn't bother buying one, not after building and stripping down 3 frames to return them under warranty within 4 weeks. First 2014 16x was knocking out of the box, replacement frame lasted 2 rides. My 2015 15x has been good so far after having the replacement bushes fitted but I've only managed to ride about 50 miles since, so still early days.

It sounds like it's the same point on the linkage on all of them psycorp, that's where ours went too.

Shame they have this problem as they ride brilliantly, I really enjoy the 15x and just hope it holds out on the new bushes. Bro spent his 16x refund on a 2nd hand Orange Alpine frame.

I wouldn't bother buying one, not after building and stripping down 3 frames to return them under warranty within 4 weeks. First 2014 16x was knocking out of the box, replacement frame lasted 2 rides. My 2015 15x has been good so far after having the replacement bushes fitted but I've only managed to ride about 50 miles since, so still early days.

It sounds like it's the same point on the linkage on all of them psycorp, that's where ours went too.

Shame they have this problem as they ride brilliantly, I really enjoy the 15x and just hope it holds out on the new bushes. Bro spent his 16x refund on a 2nd hand Orange Alpine frame.

Agreed, I really like the way mine rides too. Hopefully they have had the time to find out what the problem is and sort it, so it'll only have to go back once. Having to send it back three times is above and beyond.

the problem has been that nor glide changed the spec of the bush and didn't bother to tell saracen that they'd done it. I'm told that the new bushes are in final testing and will shipping shortly.

the problem has been that nor glide changed the spec of the bush and didn't bother to tell saracen that they'd done it. I'm told that the new bushes are in final testing and will shipping shortly.

Well that's good news for me at least. Do you know if they insist that frames have to be shipped back or are they willing to ship out the bushes for customers to fit themselves?

My 14X is just back from having a fourth set of bushes in less than a year. Saracen have refused to replace the frame. Saracen have told LBS that a long term solution is close which I have heard before so won't get excited by that. Saracen also won't pay for LBS to fit new bushes, so you are reliant on goodwill.

I mailed Saracen last Monday asking for an explanation and pointed them at this discussion. I have not had a reply.

Anybody know what the specs for the bushes should be???

Might be easier and quicker just to replace them myself by the sounds of it.

I wouldn't rely on anything saracen or mansion said and I'd avoid the frame after severalnsets of bushings and a frame replacment in the space of 2 months I managed to get a refund from freeborn. I asked them to forward my complaint to saracen/mansion before this, it took quite some time for madison to reply making me certain promises to which I'm still waiting 3 weeks on for them to fulfill. Terrible service terrible design and appoling turn around time. Avoid if you value your time.

Well Rush Cycles were straight back to me today. They admitted there was an issue with the bushings and that long term replacements were currently in testing and would be available in 8-10 weeks. In the meantime they'll send out a set of the current bushes to tide me over.

Happy with that, good service so far.

Pity Saracen can't be bothered to send me an email saying they are testing a fix. Their silence is damaging.

Iv'e just bought a 16 x frame.joe at freeborn has clarified that there checking the frames before they go out.If the old bushings are present then there will be a short delay while madison send out the newer ones and they'll fit them before shipping.
I'm taking a chance i know.... 8)

I got a refund - euans2 mentioned me in the first page. I've asked about this on Singletrack before but I don't think many people had picked up on it yet...

The tan bushes on my 2014 bike were replaced a few times, I was getting three weeks or so per set. Then, a bit out of the blue, new black bushes were available that would cure the problem - they didn't last any longer.

Then I got a new 2015 frame - the thinking was that maybe the worn tan bushes had worn the frame. The new frame was built up on December 6th, it had play within the first week of January. Madison were no bother and the shop I bought it from gave me a full refund.

Mates have 26ers running these bushes and they're ok. The Madison/Sportline's warranty guy is a top bloke and I would happily buy another Saracen bike based on how well he dealt with my problems. The freehub failed too - knackered a weekend away - but I had a new one on my desk at work the day after I rang him. I had already bought Hope/Stans wheels, but I was impressed with that.

I bought a Process 153DL instead, very similar geo. Fitted the Hope/Stans wheels and swapped the SRAM parts for mud-friendly Shimano 1x10. Should have bought that in the first place...

That's my 4th set now gone. Another 100 - 130 miles before it went. Spoke with LBS and he's going to call me back tomorrow, once he's spoke with sportsline/Madison. He's been told the new bushings are a month away from being available. After the last fit I thought it was all sorted. I'm thinking of pushing for a replacement frame.

Quick question for those who have replaced the bushings on their frames. The large bolt in the middle of the large CNC machined linkage part, is it a standard thread or an opposite thread like the small Torx bolts at the top of the linkage????????

I'm asking as the bolt on mine seems to be VERY tight and before I give it some real welly I want to be sure which thread direction it is.

Cheers.

Oh I should say thanks to Colin at Rush Cycles for getting the replacement bushes out quickly to me too.

It seems that the suppliers are doing there up most to keep customers happy (to an extent) But the issue lies at saracen and madison who refuse/dont/lie when they do or don't reply. I'm still waiting for a reply email that i was prommised now 4 weeks ago.i was promised this on the phone direct from the person who was dealing with my issue.

It seems madison/saracen just don't care and will say anything to get people off there back.

Psycorp: The only tricky one is the one where you need to pop out the taper shim and then wind it out from the other side. The rest just unscrew as you would expect. Likely to be threadlocked though, and the original instructions suggest loosening all the other bolts first.

Edit: Mine is a 2015 151, and has no Torx bolts so this may be useless advice.

Ahh ok. Thanks anyway Tom.

For clarity mine is a 2014 16x so if anyone can confirm the thread direction of the bolt in the pic below that would be great.

[img] [/img]

Be careful with that bolt, the head seems soft and easily rouned. LBS have trashed two during my multiple replacements.

Saracen called me today to apologise for being slow to respond and to explain the situation with respect to a fix. Summary is they are in final testing of the fix, testing on real bikes using uplift in the Alps apparently. Should have bits ready to send out in a few weeks. In the meantime they are happy to keep sending out replacement bushes.

I did suggest an official public statement/explanation might be a good idea given the damage this has caused to the brand. I won't hold my breathe for that one.

Hi bullroar

Do you know if it's a standard "lefty loosy, righty tighty" thread on the bolt?

Given what you've said I don't want to put any real torque into it without knowing.

Mine is mormal (14x), 6mm hex on non-drive side of bike. Make sure the tool is well seated which is not that easy given the access to the hole.