[Closed] Sapim Cx-rays... really stiff enough for DH?...& if so where's best to buy?

don't use alloy nipples.

rest seems a bit lightweight for DH but that's your choice.

just don't use alloy nipples.

i went for Sapim D-Lights as they were a load cheaper than X-rays, got them from Bike24.
Very happy with the wheel build (also onto carbon rims), they've been fine so far, still nice and true, yet to give them a real caning though.

What rims?

There's gigabytes of speculation on to ally or not to ally when it comes to nipples, check MTBR forum....
I went for black brass ones.

Wish i'd gone for black steel ones as one of the little buggers fell into the rim and i can't get it out (too late now), a magnet may have helped

cx ray spokes are no stiffer than revolutions as they are the same gauge. They have better fatigue life tho.

Why you'd want to use them to save a tiny amount of weight on dh wheels is beyond me tho.

Alloy nipples seize up if they get wet...see above.

If this is more of a vanity exercise, then don't bother. You literally cannot tell any difference unless you look really closely, and no one is likely to scrutinise your spokes.

Wish i'd gone for black steel ones as one of the little buggers fell into the rim and i can't get it out (too late now), a magnet may have helped

I use a camelback pipe cleaner thing to get them out of rims...

Quick replies indeed. Thank you, I should clarify I don’t intend to use the wheels for DH. I’ll keep a separate set for that rare day out.

Just wondered how much is in the claims the CX-Rays are capable of DH which I’ve seen noted against the spokes on a few websites. Indeed they are the same gauge as Revs (they’re actually flattened lasers). However as I gather the cold forging process increases the Stiffness and Fatigue life. They may carry the extra tension carbon rims are rumoured to require better too!.

I’ve never seen claims that Revs can be used DH and mostly quite the opposite (CRC recommend light xc use only for instance). Then again I have also seen comparisons that say the difference is sometimes hard to discern. (Google FAQload spokes for some interesting weights/observations)

I hear Revs can feel a little more flexi than std DB spokes (Comps, etc). To the point some will use comps on drive side at the rear to stiffen up things.

Agreed the CX-rays are pricey for no great weight difference over Revs and so the extra stiffness would have to be notable to make it worth while goring for CX-rays (or they’d have to be cheap 😉

D-lights are a good compromise I think (good shout btw) they appear at about £1 each on JRA’s website.

Heh!!. No worries B.A.Nana this is not a vanity exercise at all. I presume your talking just about the looks or have you ridden on CX-rays?. Its more feedback on the feel I was after!!.

Although I appreciate function, it has to be in balance with form. (It’s the sad engineer in me!!). I’m just curious about the claimed extra stiffness and the DH capable claims. Could never spin fast enough for any aero benefit anyways.

At the mo tho I agree its sounding like the extra cost is not worth it, or at least CX-rays can’t be had at reasonable cost. I suppose they’re not as dear as the Sapim Superspoke at least… they really are eye watering.

With regards to alloy nipples I understand corrosion can be an issue. However I have found a few sites discussing how alloy nipples are more increasingly acceptable. From what I can gather Sapim now make alloy nipples with anti-corrosion treatments that can outlast those used on conventional brass nipples. That in combination with a bit of lube should keep things all nice and adjustable (I’d hope!!).

Which alloy nipples did you have a disaster with WasWas??

Deus - I’m Looking at the Light-Bicycle wide 26ers. What are you running?

[i]Which alloy nipples did you have a disaster with WasWas??[/i]

all of them.

It really isn't worth it, honest.

Spesh used to spec Revolutions on the burly 6" Enduro a few years back, I never saw one with broken spokes.

CX-Rays/Aerolites aren't any stiffer than Revs/Lasers as said (I've had 2 sets of MTB wheels with the former and one with the latter, wouldn't bother again frankly!), changing the shape doesn't make them stiffer, just improves fatigue life.

What that seemed to mean was that it transfers the forces to the next weak link - I broke several (alu, well Sapim 'Polyax') nips instead, which is just as damaging/irritating as a broken spoke!

The increased tension IMO is a red herring, as beyond a certain point wheels don't get stiffer as you ramp up tension.

If you want light then Revs are good. If you're a bit of an animal and break spokes then I'd go for Comps/Super Comps.

Alu nips if you want lightweight above all. I use them on my race wheels, but don't bother for 'normal' wheels. The coated Sapim nips are no better than DT - Prolock or otherwise - or anything else, you can lube them and spoke freeze them, they'll still seize if you actually use your bike.

Heh!!. No worries B.A.Nana this is not a vanity exercise at all. I presume your talking just about the looks or have you ridden on CX-rays?. Its more feedback on the feel I was after!!.

Gee, yes I was talkin about looks, just saying not to bother if you were thinking along the looks lines. I do have CX-rays on Alpine rims and Superleggera Ti hubs. So, definitely not DH wheels. The wheels are great and for 1350gms have stood up really well to Yorkshire Dales riding on a rigid bike. I like to think I've been reasonably tough on them and not holding back, within reason on a fully rigid bike. They're a few years old and spokes are still taught and have required no adjustment.
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Aha, cheers chaps. That does sound interesting (and good for my wallet too). Particularly as Bike24 look good on Supercomps, D-lights and Revs (in fact most spokes/nips). I had also read Lasers aren’t particualarly great for use with Discs but suspect this may be further web blurb (its hard to sort the wheat for the chaff eh!!)

Always good to get real world feedback to put the web blurb in context a bit.

I’m very light on front wheels and a wee bit clumsier with back wheels, I ride anything from Xc singletrack to rougher Lakeland (Garburn type) rocky descents and a few drops. Currently running Pro II’s with Sapim DB spokes and Crests up front (which I have not come close to bending) and Flow at the back (tho I suspect an Arch EX would probably be enough of an Ally rim at the rear).

The move to allegedly stiffer carbon rims has me thinking I am probably safe on Revs or Maybe D-lights or Supercomps. So thanks for the added confidence. I think I might live with the extra 20g per wheel for Brass nips.

Any thoughts on spoke counts?. Thinking I could at least drop to 28 on the front, 32 at rear. Especially looking at a lot of Carbon Wheelset which seem to feature 24 or 28 spokes.

Hi Gee76

I've got the wide 26" rims from light-bicycle, i'm very happy with them, built up very easily, nice and true.

running them tubeless with bontrager rhythm strips (going cheap at evans when i got them, the symmetrical ones).

Running the tyres a bit harder than i need to at the mo' i'm still in that honeymoon period and don't want to bash a rim.
Sure the pressure will come down to 28psi after a month or two, or more likely when i forget and they've deflated a bit!

replaced a set of 823s, wheels lost over a pound in weight and the only difference i've noticed so far is the lack of weight! no issues with stiffness.

Going to Golspie/ Learnie at the weekend so i'll see how they fare there. Although might be a bit snowy.

how is 'stiffness' judged for a component used in tension?

re nipples.. def alloy ones.. but of the brass variety (brass of course being an alloy) are best for every wheel..

aluminium alloy nipples are a waste of time.

Gee - if you needed any other insights (looks like a high quality response here already) then I would talk to Jonathon at Strada wheels or Ricky Clarkson at Northwest MTB. Both have very extensive experience of building with carbon rims and Strada highly recommend the Sapim CXRay spoke for their increased fatigue life that has already been identified here. Ricky Clarkson obviously build Enve carbon rims for the Santa Cruz syndicate team so knows a lot about building DH wheels with carbon rims (note I know you are not looking for DH wheels)

Spesh used to spec Revolutions on the burly 6" Enduro a few years back, I never saw one with broken spokes.

I was surprised to see Reynolds speccing them on their carbon AM wheelsets, I've always been given the impression that they're only for light duties/XC use. I'll have to give them a go at some point.

Aha someone else on the 26er wide rim. Sounds like so far so good. Did you get Tell me more Deus, how are they riding compared to ally?, is the difference as pronounced as the web blurb would have you believe?, better turn in?, more damped ride?, snappier response?

Yup I think ally nips are looking not so likely now. No-one seems to have a good word about them so far.

Cheers GeeTee, I’ll give them a look up. I did wonder if there is some more specialist experience in the NW to draw upon… and indeed if I need to call on it. Was tempted with DIY but have also been looking at Merlins (although they’ve not done many carbon builds) and Hewitts (who do plenty of carbon builds… for the road (– incl for Mr Wiggins) and some offroad).
Are you still on the Havens or did you go for Enve’s IIRC from one of the Haven Carbon threads I read?

It seems a bit of a mixed bag with Revs, CRC for instance emphasise a for XC use only recommendation. DT on the other hand seem to imply they’re cut out for rougher applications via their web page. Most people here seem to be erring towards the later I think.

Gee- Give david a call. nice guy

www.dcrwheels.co.uk

Cheers Rudiboy. I was looking at Davids website with regards to spokes, nipples etc. Very informative and he made quite a good case for ally nipples iirc.

I've just built a set of wheels with some Revs & brass nipples. They are for a 150mm bike that gets used & abused. My other wheelset is built on some Supercomps which also have been fine. Although I made the stupid mistake of building them with alloy nipples.

I'm never making that mistake again.

By stiffness i was meaning lateral deflection, which is probably more of a wheel build thign rather than a rim thing.

Previous wheelset was DT Swiss 440 front and rear built onto 823 with straight gauge spokes ~2350g (weights are all written down on a peice of paper somewhere)

Now running the same hubs, Bontrager rimstrips, D-light spokes, Light-bicycle wide 26ers (390 and 394g iirc) and mavic valves and they weigh ~1730g

Built them myself, no issues with the build, not had to retension them yet, spokes were 64 euros ~£52 delivered. and they look bitchin' with black rims, nipples and spokes.

I went for the 32 hole UD matt, but you might want to go for the gloss as from what i've read on the MTBR thread (cheap chinese carbon rims, there's a 26" and 29" thread, probably getting on for 200 pages by now) the gloss is easier to clean, i do like the "stealth" nature of mine though.

As to how they ride, can't say i've noticed an improved turn in (i take the fuzzy logic approach and just keep turning unitl i'm pointing mainly where i want to be), i guess the lighter weight means it will require less effort to turn but i'm usually too busy thinking about avoiding trees/roots to concentrate on the smaller things.

I don't think you can quantify a "more damped ride" when it comes to rims, the tyre pressure, spoke tension and suspension setup (actually bars or even grips would make more of a difference) will make much more of a difference than the rim.

They do however give a snappier responce, which will be down to the much lower weight. The faster acceleration is putting a smile on my face at the moment.

I'm really enjoying them.

Slightly wider than an 823, significantly lighter, look to be just as sturdy (823s are overkill, but 5 years abusing them and they're still pretty round, i'm sure they'd have died on the DH bike by now though), the only thing i have any trepedation with is knowing how long they'll last/ how many rocks i can ding the rim with before something fails requiring a new rim. But only time will tell on that front.

Are you still on the Havens or did you go for Enve’s IIRC from one of the Haven Carbon threads I read?

The Haven Carbons are brilliant and reliable for probably 90% of riders, but I've decided to call it a day with them because I'm tired of the issues I have had with the hub (which has never stayed tight) and the spoke breakages. It's not so much the broken spokes that is the real issue, more that it takes so long to fix them and can't be done in any LBS - it has to go back to the distributor.

So while I would still recommend them for most people, for me, and other heavier riders (literally and metaphorically) I would caution their use. Be prepared to have spokes break and for their replacement to take a couple of weeks. Be prepared for that to happen anything from every six months to once a year depending on where and how frequently you ride and make sure you have a back up wheel.

It's also worth mentioning that the front has been 100% reliable the whole time I've had it. Unsurprisingly it is the rear that has been the problem child.

I suppose coming from a 2300g set of wheels your gonna be pretty much at max stiffness so by dropping over a pound and having no issues I guess that speaks volumes. Not sure about the carbon dampening thing but it’s more subjective, and thus subject to web blurb voodoo!!. In a similar vein I see mixed views on carbon bars (I quite like the benfits of them myself).
I hope to drop about 300g going from about 1750g down to about 1450g.

I’m thinking around 350 front and 370 rear for the 26er wides on DT 240’s, revs/(Supercomps maybe) and brass nips. Gloss sounds a good shout but might still prefer the stealth Matt.. I’ll check the thread again for any pics. Not gone thru all the 29er one yet but avidly followed the 26er one… stuck at 28 pages currently. Was hoping to run Tape and my existing Stans valves, did you try either?. How did you get on with customs by the way, what rate did they apply?

There’s definitely a pattern with ally nips so I think I will be avoiding em. Tis good too as most spoke come with brass nips.

Yes the hub thing had put me off a bit with the Havens (and costs), they look great but heard they are good but a few issues with hubs made me think of going with DT. Had some dialogue with Easton and Extra (IIRC) and the hub compatibility thing was a bit of a minefield and evne more costly than DT. What’s next/new for you the GeeTee… ally, carbon, grahpine, plasma???.....

the 823's didn't need tape and came with Mavic valves, so it was a case of buy tape or strips and i got a pair of them for £8 it was cheaper than tape (£6.99 each at Evans at the mo'). i guess the valves will be all much the same.
I imagine tape will be fine, just may need a couple of wraps (i'm sure MTBR has the info).

Think i ended up paying about £23 for customs.

My spokes came with nipples, so didn't need to spend again (even though the rims were a birthday present, it was starting to get a bit pricey!)
Should really post a picture or two.

Ah sounds more of a cost/convenience thing then. Most on MTBr seem to be going with rimstrips whereas I’d prefer to use up the tape and valves I have. Was also a bit weary that extralong valves might be required but presumably that shouldn’t be a problem.
Ahhh £23, seems to be what I expected, not too bad considering. Nice birthday present though eh.. a faster bike.

Yeah the spokes with nips make it seem a waste to go off an buy further nips. Think I’ll forgo the 20 g per wheel saving there, not least because no-one seems to have had a good word for em yet. I’m leaning towards silver spokes too, cheaper but kinda like the looks… dry mud on em doesn’t seem to show either.

I believe “boxfish” was also building up some LB 26er Wide rims too, not seen any pics yet either. Be good to see some more.

What’s next/new for you the GeeTee… ally, carbon, grahpine, plasma???.....

Sticking with carbon but going for a standard build.

Go-on spill the beans:-)