[Closed] Santa Cruz ebike

I don't really see eMTBs ever touted as an entry into the sport, they are usually aimed at existing riders who want to get bigger rides completed in a given time or want to use the bike like an uplift thus enabling them to get more down runs in at a bike park. Bikes aimed at the new rider are the likes of a hardtail or a Bird or Calibre full suspension.

To be honest if you walk into a shop that sells Santa Cruz or Yeti (or similar) the options for budget entry level bikes are likely to be a bit more limited as they are probably a higher end dealer.

Another way I’d look at this – how many people can afford a £25k+ car on HP when paying half that does the same job? Many. In comparison a £5k bike isn’t a stretch? No-one’s being put off ‘the sport’ based on E-bike pricing

I don't know the figures, but a mountain bike is purely for leisure (unless you commute on it) . A car for many is a necessity.

I assume most people get into riding through friends and the amount of people who just pick it up individually to be fairly small.

If your group of friends all have mid range £5k ebikes and you have a £50 Halfords special you found in the shed then your pressure to get an ebike is huge if you want to carry on riding with them.

I just can't see how that many people can afford to throw down this kind of money.

If your group of friends all have mid range £5k ebikes and you have a £50 Halfords special you found in the shed then your pressure to get an ebike is huge if you want to carry on riding with them.

Yeah, I mentioned this previously. Once a couple of folk on my regular crew buy Ebikes, and take them on our joint rides, I'll likely step back. I've no intention/desire to own one and neither do I want to be the last guy up the hill, holding them back.

I just can’t see how that many people can afford to throw down this kind of money.

This is STW where TJ is regularly castigated for reminding folk that a £50k salary puts them in the very top %age of earners. I guess there's enough folk out there that the industry thinks worth chasing.

Tom’s post was how this £12k model affects perception of the £4k type equivalent, so e-bikes here, or custom road bikes, pretty much the same thing.

OK ta, well I'd respectfully suggest that's a load of guff.

Most casual buyers won't even be aware there are £12k MTBs and the rest of us will just laugh at them - and at the mugs who buy them.

We all know there are massive diminishing returns after £2-4k, anyone letting shiny gold stanchions or electric shifting give them gear-based FOMO needs to get out and ride more, as I said before.

Taking the road bike example, I wouldn't mind trading in my 2012 Cr1 for something like a TCR Advanced pro disc (the Ultegra model). You could get them for a bit over £2k in the sales last year and I think they even had carbon wheels. Shame I was skint really.

Anyone spending £12k on a road bike (and I know you easily can) is really chasing the marginal gains, eh?

Once a couple of folk on my regular crew buy Ebikes, and take them on our joint rides, I’ll likely step back.

Anecdotally, I've heard that when some people in a group get ebikes they tend to splinter off because they're basically incompatible with group rides.

I don't think us luddites will ever struggle to find a non-E group ride.

If your group of friends all have mid range £5k ebikes and you have a £50 Halfords special you found in the shed then your pressure to get an ebike is huge if you want to carry on riding with them.

Distorted example as it's not really about price, just bike type but yes to a point the arms-race in riding groups already sells £1.5k wheelsets to roadies, £4k aero bikes to club TTers and £3k FS MTBs to those that don't keep up downhill and worry about it. E-bikes are no different. So you get a £2k E-MTB on HP or ride to work, or buy S/H. Or your e-biker mates wait for you at the top as most fitter riders do on group rides anyway, or you get fitter by riding with e-bikers. Or ride with other people if bike type is too divisive.

Capitalism means there's always a cheap option and adding to the top end doesn't change any of that.

OK ta, well I’d respectfully suggest that’s a load of guff.

That view came to me from within the bike industry, that halo bikes don’t actually make the mid range stuff look good value to people getting into the sport (or even folk already in, as demonstrated further up the thread), as even the mid range is expensive now, so I’d suggest there’s something to it.

halo bikes don’t actually make the mid range stuff look good value to people getting into the sport (or even folk already in, as demonstrated further up the thread), as even the mid range is expensive now

Well that may be a different argument. Are you saying very expensive bikes shift where the "mid range" is? That's guff too anyway. Low-end is under £1k (£1.5k for full sus maybe), mid range is £2k to £3.5k-ish, over that is high end.

The existence of a £12k bike doesn't suddenly make everyone think £6k is mid-range, that's still a silly amount to spend on a bike for most of us.

Does it make you think that though Tom?

Mean/mode/median.. more top end / £12k bikes only shift the median sense of mid-range price.

If anything, halo bikes like this SC make bikes using the same motor or build from other brands look better value - good value is relative to the competition. Mid-range to 'the industry' really is average selling price and customers decide that. If it goes up then the marketing is working : )

To me, where something sits in a range is based on the spec of the bike. Thing is the spec levels have been staying the same but pricing has crept up with the super bling stuff. I’ve seen plenty of people complaining that 3-4K+ bikes now are NX, even SX and sub deore kit, generic wheels, OEM ‘only’ suss and own brand finishing kit. That, to me isn’t midrange, it’s entry level. Better specs are available from the direct brands of course, but newcomers aren’t going to see those, as they aren’t in their local shop, or people don’t want the hassle of building the bike/sending it back if wrong/broken.

3-4K+ bikes now are NX, even SX and sub deore kit, generic wheels, OEM ‘only’ suss and own brand finishing kit.

Some E-FS bikes below 3.5k yes. Entry level E-FS is £3-4k. They're expensive products for sure.

Better specs are available from the direct brands of course, but newcomers aren’t going to see those, as they aren’t in their local shop, or people don’t want the hassle of building the bike/sending it back if wrong/broken.

Online sales are big for all bikes already though and almost everyone shops and researches online before going in-store now, so Canyon or Cube likely to set the value levels for anyone looking for an E-FS. Or they go to an e-bike specialist who will have a full range of price points covered. Those going into a shop as a first step are more likely to be leisure-hybrid (or E-HT as an 'SUV') buyers - they're the newcomers. They're not buying E-FS at £4k.

I don't see anything suggesting that E-FS is bringing new riders into the sport or that £4k E-FS alienates anyone. I did something quite general on this for work recently - where the buyers are coming in from and how the price gap-jump between non-E and E-bikes is in different categories, how E-bikes change product demand by product category. E-FS is selling to riders who had a fairly mid-high end MTB already. People don't really 'get into the sport' that directly, seems more fluid than that.

Was at the new STIF shop today and witnessed the ebike, spent 2 mins next to it, it was ok. There were much more interesting bikes there. Hopefully they will bring in other bikes along with Santa Cruz, its a SC showroom at the moment (for bikes). Nice place to be though.

I cant believe a company releases a bike and this place implodes is to utter rubbish.

Some bikes cost more than others some cars cost more than others and some people have more money than others,..through choice or luck.
If someone likes something they will buy it even if there is something different on the market that is cheaper or better.
Far to much bike/car/prestige hate here. Rule one of life "dont be a dick" if someones out on a bike who cares what make it is,if they are happy thats all that matters

Thats to my point stevedoc, just thought it was a bike with a motor when i saw it. A few people surrounding it. I just liked the look of a bike i could own next, which wouldn't be that bike.

As I said before i think its nice the colour is nice too, I wouldn't buy one yet as I feel I have no need for assistance but in the future I might, in the future I might want to drive a 8 year old car and ride a bike costing twice that, I wouldn't care what people thought. I might however need help getting one on the roof of the car..

Fair. Horses for courses right!

Im talking more about e mountain bikes here rather than ebikes in general.

There are plenty of "good value" ebikes.

The trouble comes when they are compared to good value NON ebikes.

There is a personality crisis going on within ebike manufacture and marketing at the moment. Partly industry made and partly due to some buyers assumptions.

I think things will clarify over the next few years. It will probably suit the industry and the buyers (eventually) when there is a bit more "space" between bikes and ebikes. There is a bigger difference between them than we like to generally acknowledge at the moment.

I know many won't agree with that though.

“There is a bigger difference between them than we like to generally acknowledge at the moment.

I know many won’t agree with that though.”

Have you spent much time riding ebikes?

I’ve done 1600 miles on my Levo and I’d say that there is less difference between eMTBs and normal MTBs than most people think.

Thats what i've noticed chiefgrooveguru. Emountainbikes have split the market and as such, i'm interested in one strain. Not the e style. I may well pick it up when my knees are knackered and so, to my mind, more power to those that keep that industry going. I'll get a top bike worth it's salt in that area one day. At the moment, i feel, the industry aren't forcing anything on anyone. They are giving options. You can buy what you feel like riding or what best suits your style. Its a shame these things fall into willy waving though. Down to high price tags i suppose.

Once a couple of folk on my regular crew buy Ebikes, and take them on our joint rides, I’ll likely step back.

Anecdotally, I’ve heard that when some people in a group get ebikes they tend to splinter off because they’re basically incompatible with group rides.

I don’t think us luddites will ever struggle to find a non-E group ride.”

I do both at the moment and enjoy them equally for different reasons. The distance, terrain and elevation you can cover on your e-mtb in a two hour ride when you only have limited time is amazing, either solo or as an e-mtb group (and more of a workout than you might think). For me this is great as family commitments mean I just can’t do the all day rides I used to and often only have an hour two max to get my MTB fix.

However, riding with my buddies on their non e-bikes is also great (as it has been for nearly three decades). Using my e-mtb in eco mode with the assistance dialled down is not very different at all from riding a normal FS bike (albeit a little heavier, but that adds stability and a great suspension feel in my opinion).

The new lighter weight / lower power e-mtb’s are only going to close this gap even further.

I guess you can get a 7k bike for about 4k these days on cycle to work, I haven't used the scheme before but the new limit could make this interesting. Around 4k is the most I want to spend on a pushbike before I start to bawk a little.

I know a fair few in my work who are after ebikes and the C2W scheme is having the 1k limit lifted, unfortunately it's moving to 2.5k and the reality is that there isn't much you can get for that, no full suspension ebikes, only hardtails and with very poor kit compared to normal bikes. For the actual commuters looking for an ebike, they'll be able to get that type of hardtail commuter that'll do the job, but a lot of folk wanting anything remotely weekendish will struggle.

^^^

Does abusing cycle to work scheme to buy overpriced ebikes constitute tax evasion?

I wonder how long the scheme will last now the limits are lifted.

I do both at the moment and enjoy them equally for different reasons.

Very much this for me too.
Still ride my non ebike both with friends and on my own.
Also ride my ebike with friends and on my own, but generally don't ride ebike when most other people in the group are on non e.

no full suspension ebikes

My heart bleeds for them. 'Weekendish" toys don't merit a tax break. Anyone who has seen the state of an A&E ward in the last few years can attest to the fact that that there are better things to spend the nations resources on. Anyone who does is quite frankly a See you next Tuesday in my book.

Pretty sure it's an unlimited limit, depending on how your employer implements it.
I must say as a higher rate tax payer it will be nice to get something back for a change.

My heart bleeds for them. ‘Weekendish” toys don’t merit a tax break.

Compared with many other tax breaks / loopholes the privileged few seem to benefit from under the current regime, I’d say any scheme that gets more people cycling has got to be a good thing (whatever the bike is).

I must say as a higher rate tax payer it will be nice to get something back for a change.

I think I can say as a fellow high rate tax payer I wish you rough rectal treatment with some medieval implement when that's all the NHS have left to use and you fall off your shiny weekendsih 'weapon'.

I'll post a pic up of my 40% discounted ebike when I get it. Just for you. Hope you enjoy.

I’ll post a pic up of my 40% discounted ebike when I get it. Just for you. Hope you enjoy.

If you use it for commuting for work crack on. If it's only for dicking about in woods I wish you a freak ebike electrocution. Nothing wrong with dicking about in woods or doing it on an ebike or any other expensive shiny thing. Bt thinking the nation owes it to you to pay for a portion makes you a grade 1 throbber.

Having worked in a store that dealt with CycletoWork, I can assure you that probably more than 80% of customers buying any type of bike on the scheme have no intention of ever riding that bike to work. Have always thought that it was dubious right from the start...but then ultimately if it makes the employee happier and fitter then it's still a benefit to the employer right?.....and an ebike is a perfect tool to commute to work on if they ever did use the scheme as intended, arrive less sweaty and all.

The tax savings will still only be available on a grand a year so £400 (high rate tax payer) in the past it was getting a bike higher priced than the voucher that was the problem. Ie £1000 voucher maximum rrp bike you could buy was £1000, not in theory you can use your £1k c2w voucher towards a £7k bike, by you’ll only save on the voucher..

I’ll be getting a dirt jump bike when my current c2w expires in September and I can get a new voucher

it’s still a benefit to the employer right?

At a net loss to the treasury (i.e. you and me and everyone else who uses the nhs, drives on a road, expects a state pension, feels those a bit less fortunate might need some assistance etc etc) not the employer.

I think Ebikes are brilliant for commuting - my wife uses a dutch style ebike every day for exactly that. For actually riding to work.

Pretty sure the vouchers can be any value now (up to the employer)

For sure. Whack the pricing into a c2w calculator shows a 7k bike for just over 4k, depending on employer. Ride it to work though? No chance. Will stick to the car.
I'm sure the chap above will get all red faced and wish increasing bizarre injuries on me. How very amusing!

At a net loss to the treasury....

I completely agree with you....the whole concept of the scheme is dubious if analysed in light of a minority using it as intended, one can only assume that the government's never really looked into it... You'd be amazed how many times we'd have to explain to numpties why it is not legit to be buying their kids bikes on the scheme for example, or a full on downhill bike on the pretence that yes I suppose one could ride it to work, yeah right. Mostly people don't understand why they shouldn't use it this way and see it as an entitled work discount.

Since I got it, over 95% of my commutes have been done on my £5k eMTB that I bought through work. It really is excellent across a hilly town with potholes, bad drivers, winter weather and so on. It’s also my main MTB now.

Above is a brilliant use of the scheme Chief...now if we can just ban cars from town centres, get safe routes to get to work/ school, on bikes that can double up for weekend pleasure then we all win ultimately....could be the future.

Time to just make bikes and ebikes low VAT rated, and add extra purchase taxes of some form to all and any vehicle that uses petrol or diesel. And get rid of other tax wheezes related to cycling.

Indeed. If we're handing out tax breaks for cycling, let's do it across the board and not favour the higher rate tax payers. Or, we could be really forward-thinking and actually reward folk financially when they choose to commute by bike.

I'm sure I've read somewhere that there are already companies who give out financial incentives if employees log a target amount of commutes by bicycle, as extra pay or holiday in lieu, it may not have been in this country...as an eco-conscious lifelong Vegetarian who doesn't consume much and currently works from home I'd really like a tax break please...if only.

Indeed. If we’re handing out tax breaks for cycling, let’s do it across the board and not favour the higher rate tax payers.

+1

I didn't mind benefiting when I was a higher-rate taxpayer but must admit it's a weirdly regressive "benefit". I could probably do it again now via my current employer, but my bargain hunting skills are honed to such a level that it's kind-of superfluous to my needs.

If they were handing out free Bromptons though...

Reading various reviews and snowy ride reports, Danny Mac vids etc. I wonder if the new Heckler really is that good, leagues above most other ebikes, or is it a lot of hype ? On paper it has the wrong size wheels, an old tech motor and poor spec for the money.

So, is it really a step above the E150 RS Whyte, or the Orbea Wild FS, or a Spesh Levo or is it a case of The Emperors New Clothes...

I doubt it’s better at all, just different. Probably nicely made, good guarantee for sure, fun to ride. Is anything ever leagues ahead of anything else (at a similar price) in an industry this competitive?

Well I've been in at Mugdock today and seen one in the flesh and they are lovely, but the most remarkable thing was the weight compared to the Cube stereo ebike which felt like a boat anchor.

I can only imagine how that must transfer on the trail, it certainly felt on a different level to the Cube ebike...but probably cost twice as much.

^^^ interesting, I thought it was similar weight, at around 49-51 lb to most of the decent spec alternatives. Was it the blingy one with the carbon wheels etc ? Haven't tried picking up one of Keith's Cube's mind you !

Indeed. If we’re handing out tax breaks for cycling, let’s do it across the board and not favour the higher rate tax payers. Or, we could be really forward-thinking and actually reward folk financially when they choose to commute by bike.

Edinburgh city council tried to do this. HMRC decided it was a taxable benefit and killed the idea

It's interesting how much debate and discussion ebikes are causing, but then any new innovation has the same effect (29", dropper posts, wireless shifting). I'm lucky enough to live in Morzine so popped into the Santa Cruz marketing showroom to take a look at the new Heckler they have on display and it was a good looking bike (although personally i wouldn't pick yellow). From what I get from the person in the showroom it's quite similar to the Bronson (and other than the battery section looks very much like it) and does a very good job on the downhills with the added benefit on the ups. I've ridden the Nomad and the Megatower round here for a few years and have no doubt i'll start seeing a fair few of these Hecklers around. My wife (who has also ridden the Nomad and was looking at the Juliana Roubion) said she'd be really interested in getting the Heckler instead as it meant that when we go out together on the more enduro style rides she'll be closer to me on the ups and it'll be more fun for her (and probably for me too), that seemed like a good reason to me.

So, is it really a step above the E150 RS Whyte, or the Orbea Wild FS, or a Spesh Levo or is it a case of The Emperors New Clothes

Absolutely not, it’s conservative (outdated) geometry, outdated motor + battery tech & hilariously overpriced, even for a Santa Cruz. And it looks sh*t.

I can’t think of any reason why I would want to consider buying it over a number of other Ebikes currently for sale.

From what I get from the person in the showroom it’s quite similar to the Bronson (and other than the battery section looks very much like it) and does a very good job on the downhills with the added benefit on the ups.

Truly insightful from the marketing guy there

“it’s conservative (outdated) geometry”

It may be that I don’t ride fast enough but I feel that geometry doesn’t need to go quite as long and slack when you have the added stability and more effective suspension due to the much greater frame weight. Also, with their high speed uphill ability there’s an argument for slightly higher bottom brackets.

And also that speed on flat or slightly uphill trails gives a good argument for not going so steep on the seat angle so your seated position is closer to your attack position for better handling. And then that ties together with longer chainstays so you can climb steep stuff.

I’d still rather have 29” wheels though!

🙂 he was actually very chatty and helpful and gave some good personal opinions, the bit i was highlighting was the similarity to the Bronson out of the range.

^^^^^ yeah, RideCairngorm have been using one for past week or so and riding with Danny Mac and others, and that's exactly how they described it too !