You don't need to be an 'investor' to invest in Singletrack: 6 days left: 95% of target - Find out more
I don’t see why you couldn’t supply everything pre fitted. I just assume that the ‘frame’ price would be so hideously bad value that no one would buy it, over a complete, if very basic, build.
If you slim it down to an app for modification of the settings, and the motor/battery is fitted and tested before shipping then the rest of the bike is just a bike. There's some overcomplications going on with displays and controls and what not, most of which I think you can dispense of on an MTB.
The total cost for custom low manufacturing volumes carbon FS frame with shock and motor/Battery etc. (one of the main brands) would be well below £2k imported into the UK Ex VAT. At high volumes you could maybe get to half that.
What price it then sells for is a totally different question of course.
I am with fettlin, don't think I had a digital camera when I bought my first Heckler (97)
My first full susser was a 2011 heckler. All I remember was it wasnt all that good.
I like that ebike though. I wouldn't buy one, or any ebike, as it would be pointless for the riding I do. But If I only enjoyed the downhill element of cycling, as many folks do, then it would be a no brainer. I remember when starting out me and the boys would go to gt and inners and getting to the top was a slog. If if could of got there in half the time on am ebike then it would have been brilliant.
Nobeerinthefridge
Member
Geex is sadly missed, indeed.
As said above, Gary is rather prolific over on EMTB Forums....
Though from a personal perspective, apart from ripping the pish outta me, aka nobeer stylee 😂, he has been very helpful 😜
The total cost for custom low manufacturing volumes carbon FS frame with shock and motor/Battery etc. (one of the main brands) would be well below £2k imported into the UK Ex VAT.
Is that price to the manufacturer? So say £1-2k + 20% VAT, plus distributor/retailer margin etc?
Yes that's correct.
So say 1500 cost.
I'll assume including dev and marketing costs.
+30% margin for mfr.
+30% distributor
+50% retail at sale, 80% to rrp.
+20%VAT
That's a 5.5k frame at rrp, selling at 4.5k in the sale
(not sure on cycle industry but my distributors want 40-50% retail 80-100% to hit list price. My selling price is between list less 50 and 75%)
So £7k will get you the base spec Heckler or a Fox equipped X01 build Atherton Enduro.
I'm now trying to work out which one is the better VFM....
Out of curiousity anyone know what the cost of the Shimano drive unit is - retail and OEM?
Also where do SC get their carbon frames made?
7k would also buy you a close to top of range Orbea Wild FS, with a full carbon frame. Bosch 2020 motor, 625 battery, full 2020 XT and a Fox 36, with decent 29er wheels and top finishing kit....
So say 1500 cost.
I’ll assume including dev and marketing costs.
+30% margin for mfr.
+30% distributor
+50% retail at sale, 80% to rrp.
+20%VATThat’s a 5.5k frame at rrp, selling at 4.5k in the sale
Thats for your mid size distributor led option though, like a Yeti or a Mondy. The bigger guys will be direct to the shops and paying more like the 1k cost. Therefore having the option of chopping a couple of grand off the 'possible' price. For most shops use more like +50-60% to RRP, infact if you add 50% per hop you're probably not too far off the truth.
Out of curiousity anyone know what the cost of the Shimano drive unit is – retail and OEM?
Also where do SC get their carbon frames made?
I do yes, OE anyway, but sorry I can't say. On the frames, I'd not get hung up on where they're made. Most frames at a reasonable quantity will cost broadly the same and country of origin is not a specific indication of quality. That is to say you won't find Chinese frames to be vastly cheaper than say Taiwanese ones, if the factory is as good. Some are geared on small runs, some big runs, some you pay more up front, some you pay more per unit. What is definitely true though is that carbon when done on a large scale isn't especially 'expensive'. Its all relative of course but say a run of 2000 high end chinese carbon frames will have a unit cost not wildly different to that of a 100 batch of quality Taiwanese Alu, even when you include mould costs.
What it costs = what they think the market will stand while providing the profit margin they want. It's got nothing to do with what it costs. Because, capitalism.
quote: "What it costs = what they think the market will stand while providing the profit margin they want. It’s got nothing to do with what it costs."
But did anyone actually think it did ? if you did then get a pin and burst your bubble. Price of "High End" stuff (whatever it is) never ever has had anything to do with what it cost...
Price of “High End” stuff (whatever it is) never ever has had anything to do with what it cost…
You clearly don't know how much those logos cost to use.
In defence of SC prices (I feel dirty already...) the price of an item isn't just the item, its also the service, after sales, warranty etc.
But yeah, a badge can add a lot to the price of something that is very similar.
See Audi/VW/Seat/Skoda...
You clearly don’t know how much those logos cost to use.
I will send you a pin in the post.....
It'll be interesting to see how the second hand ebike market shakes out, what with batteries dying over there life span etc
Batteries can be easily (if not cheaply) replaced. Older generation motors will kill 2nd hand bike values though.
Older generation motors will kill 2nd hand bike values though.
Do you mean newer generation motors will kill 2nd hand bike values? I'd assumed we were yet to see some big changes which might make current kit redundant very quickly. I guess that new battery technology can be retro-fitted and if there was an agreed standard for motor fitment, then it's possible that motors could also be upgraded without trashing a whole bike.
**** you bike industry - you've priced me out of it. I don't want budget stuff due to riding mountain bikes for 30+ years I want suspension with loads of adjustment and shifters with bearings rather than bushes etc. Ebikes and especially SC and Specialized just don't offer VFM and I don't want the hassle of returning a frame to Germany when it cracks.
I'm off to buy a new Honda CRF Rally for £5k to clack about on - yes I know volume of manufacturing scale blah blah but £7k to £12k for a glorified push bike is absolutely insane.
And there in a sweary nutshell is my point.
if there was an agreed standard for motor fitment, then it’s possible that motors could also be upgraded without trashing a whole bike.
Ah the ‘agreed standard’ the thing that works so well elsewhere in the bike industry. Even if there is one it will be changed every couple of years.
And there in a sweary nutshell is my point.
Ben, it sounds like there could be a gap in the market for an affordable frame-only alternative?
That’s the thing though. Customers don’t see the sub £4K market as ‘still really good’. They see it as ‘its a third the price of the stuff I see in the mags/on Instagram, so must be inferior. I can’t afford £12k for the good stuff, so I won’t bother.’
Not helped by the bigger, more mass market, brands doing mega money stuff, people assume it’s the mid range. If a (relatively) mass market brand like Specialized has a $16,525 bike, how much is the really nice stuff?
Tom hits the nail on the head. If you make the aspirational unattainable you'll break the market. Therefore a totally different direction is needed to change the direction of travel travel. You need to make aspirational and value. That means significant investment in brand, tech and market leadership. Simply making an equivalently good product much cheaper (relatively easily done) doesn't change the perception, and that's what's doing the damage.
Specialized have had a very bling top end range for a very long time so that's not new.
And most customers (especially away from STW) happily pay a lot less than 1/3rd of those and are perfectly happy with their purchases. I don't think Ebikes change much in that respect.
Ben, you might know... What is the average price paid for a new bike now?
if there was an agreed standard for motor fitment, then it’s possible that motors could also be upgraded without trashing a whole bike.
Ah the ‘agreed standard’ the thing that works so well elsewhere in the bike industry. Even if there is one it will be changed every couple of years.
To be fair the Shimano mount system has been standardised for all 4 current motors and is to be used for future motors in the foreseeable. Problem for selling motors to upgrade/update is that they need to be programmed at an OEM level to keep them within the law with regard to wheel size and max assisted speed (as that varies for different territories.
Some very good points being made here and it brings up a problem with eMTBs that I hadn’t considered before. If you assume that Ben is right and you could make an eMTB that was “only” a grand more than a normal bike, that’s still a fair hike for a lot of people. If we push the notion that you need a motor to go mountain biking then we are going to price a lot of people out of the sport.
What is the average price paid for a new bike now?
Won’t that be skewed by the BSOs and C2W? I’m talking about the hobby market, where bikes are competing with sailing, MX, skiing etc
And that’s before we get into the depreciation of bikes. Bad enough as it is, reckon it will be a whole lot worse for expensive ebikes.
bikes are competing with sailing, MX, skiing etc
All expensive hobbies.
If we push the notion that you need a motor to go mountain biking then we are going to price a lot of people out of the sport.
Yep, so keep up the good fight and remind folk that they don't need Ebikes.
If a (relatively) mass market brand like Specialized has a $16,525 bike, how much is the really nice stuff?
To be fair to Spesh, they've always had their S-Works division which is not aimed at mass market. The $16K Levo SL is a limited edition of 250 with SRAM wireless XX1 Eagle AXS groupset etc.
Their top-spec non S-Works bike is the Expert SL at £7499 with full carbon frame/wheelset, Fox suspension etc, and significantly less than SC Heckler.
All expensive hobbies.
Exactly. Why would you buy a glorified pushbike when you could have 3 skiing holidays, a boat or an MX bike instead?
Just looked at Bronson pricing - they’re approx £2K cheaper for broadly similar spec. A big gap but far smaller than I’d have guessed.
To be fair to Spesh,
It’s not just Spesh, they all do it to a degree, just without the differentiation. When idly browsing, folk don’t think ‘ah well it’s a limited edition with all the bling, there’s a better value one etc etc’ they think ‘SIXTEEN GRAND FOR A BIKE!?!?!?’
think that’s more to do with it doing the job better* than its contemporaries rather than blazing a trail though,
I dunno I test rode a Bronson in 2014? after I'd already ordered my process 153, I was worried id made the wrong choice with the Kona as everyone loved the Bronson, in the end the Bronson was nice but nothing special, when my kona arrived it was a chunk heavier but head & shoulders a better bike than the Santa cruz.
I was always amazed by how much love the Bronson got considering how far behind many other brands they seemed to be with it.
Even the mk3 nomad, which was fun, seemed more like an alps bike than an endur o /trail bike, was at least a bit innovative
Anyway, im sure this heckler will ride fine, but by Jupiter it's an ugly beast, even for an ebike, that downtube looks wrong, sc usually get the aesthetics right at least!
Ben, you might know… What is the average price paid for a new bike now?
I only know from us, and its mid-high 2000s. Im not specifically criticising SC - I see it as symptomatic of an industry thats spent beyond its means in terms of marketing/sponsorship etc. for some time and suddenly sees a new cash cow come over the horizon and its trying to claw back some of that investment. That in itself is fine, but ebikes and people powered bikes aren't on an even footing, so you can't look at it like wheel sizes or who's got the most cogs on their cassette. If the market drives to e as the normal, and there's not a big adjustment in the pricing of the top tier, I think it will cause a decline in cycling offroad as a whole. People just wont invest in a sport where they're told that in order to keep up with their mates the additional price tag is MORE than the cost of the base model that company sells, e.g. for a base heckler you could buy the same spec bronson, a 5010 AND still have change.
"When idly browsing for a new car, folk don’t think ‘ah well it’s a limited edition with all the bling, there’s a better value one etc etc’ they think £125K Audi R8 Coupe is way out of my league, but i'm happy with a Golf GTI for £28K."
I've been on this forum for nearly two decades... haven't we been here before when top-spec bikes hit £5K, £8K, £10K etc.
the additional price tag is MORE than the cost of the base model that company sells, e.g. for a base heckler you could buy the same spec bronson, a 5010 AND still have change.
That wasn't the case when the Bronson came out though, it was only 2-3 years later that SC released lower priced Bronson/5010 builds and alloy framesets at a lower price. Hopefully the same will happen with the new Heckler (...yeah, what am I thinking??!?!)
Tom
Buying and running an MX bike for a year will cost you a whole heap more than buying and running an ebike for a year...
People just wont invest in a sport where they’re told that in order to keep up with their mates the additional price tag is MORE than the cost of the base model that company sells,
This is likely to be an issue for me at some point. Once a few friends have them I'm less likely to want to ride with them. I'd either be holding them back on the hills or simply not making the same average speed on a flatter ride without turning myself inside out. And that's not what I want to do.
I see it as symptomatic of an industry thats spent beyond its means in terms of marketing/sponsorship etc. for some time and suddenly sees a new cash cow come over the horizon and its trying to claw back some of that investment
Well that's an interesting perspective if accurate.
If the market drives to e as the normal
But this is a very big "if". I just don't see the appetite for it at all. Still don't have any riding buddies who have gone electric.
More likely to always be a parallel pursuit to normal MTBing, with a venn diagram of participants.
Buying and running an MX bike for a year will cost you a whole heap more than buying and running an ebike for a year…
Are people thinking that when they look at the initial purchase price though. How many times have you seen comments like ‘I’ll buy an MX bike instead’ on places like here and pinkbike, never mind in the wider market, when expensive bikes are launched? That’s for both normal and emtb.
they think £125K Audi R8 Coupe is way out of my league, but i’m happy with a Golf GTI for £28K
^^or a kia or what ever at less than a (markedly expensive, aspiratonally badged) golf.
And that's the thing, most people think a 500 voodoo is a lot of money for a bike, they're put off by an 800 boardman, they see a 5k bike, electric or not, the same way I do a porsche.
Ebikes are being pushed as some sort of gateway - by and large I think to keep the cycling press and groups happy - and that makes the pricing look mad, think of it as a high end because I can product and suddenly the pricing doesn't seem so unreasonable. Its a fancy toy being sold to people who already spend on fancy toys, santa cruz has always marketed itself in that space and their margin on this is likely less than their non ebikes.
The bike you're looking at are no more a gateway than a formula 3 car is a gateway to motor racing and pricing is in line with that and the worry is the same about pricing people out, you can go to a track day in your mk1 escort and be racing ferraris, you might even enjoy it. Liklihood is, your mates are going to turn up in escorts too and, even if you do have a ferrari driving mate or four, it won't put you off going.
Comparatively this forum is largely a bunch of folk who own an rs6 moaning about the cost of a brabus 800
I have an enthusiastic group of young shredders in my mountain bike maintenance club at the secondary school I work in. One thing I do know is that they think e-mtb is the coolest thing going and all want one when they've saved up enough money. They simply don't have the baggage we have in terms of the years and years of "earning your downhills" etc, and see it as a way to ride further, faster and get more of the fun bits into a ride.
...I just hope e-mtb entry-price isn't a limiting factor for them in getting their first dream bike (we all have a number of dream bikes through our riding life, right?). At the moment they'd be more than happy with something like a Vitus E-Sommet at around £3K, as long as there remains value(??) at the lower end then they may be ok.
Comparatively this forum is largely a bunch of folk who own an rs6 moaning about the cost of a brabus 800
🙂 🙂 🙂
Comparatively this forum is largely a bunch of folk who own an rs6 moaning about the cost of a brabus 800
I'm not that au fait with the car models, but I feel more like a slightly smug Skoda owner laughing at the prices people pay for Audis or Range Rovers.
I've just looked it up. Brabus 800 is around £250k
I’m not that au fait with the car models
Me either, though I often get passed by a brabus tuned merc on my commute and, even as a "what's the boot space and mpg like" car person, I do go a bit weak kneed at the noise the thing makes.
Hey, imagine my surprise. The only Brabus I'd ever heard of before this thread was the Smart Car. I was struggling to see the relevance.
How many times have you seen comments like ‘I’ll buy an MX bike instead’
My guess is they have no idea how much it would really cost them to run a bike for a season.
How many times have you seen comments like ‘I’ll buy an MX bike instead’
I would love to see these moaning ****ers even attempt to ride a MX bike, within 1/2 lap of a track they'd be suffering so much arm pump that having a piss afterwards would entail them asking for help to get their stubby noggin released from their pants by their mum
(raced motox from 8yrs to 20yrs old with full factory sponsorship so i know how much riding/training it takes to hold onto a 125/250cc at full chap, theres no chance a stw keyboard warrior could even pick one up after being spat off.)
I bought an mx bike during the foot and mouth crisis (remember that) and rode most weekends at various practice tracks,I have never been as knackered on an mtb as I was after a day of riding my Honda cr250, never suffered much from arm pump (probably didn't ride fast enough) but everything else ached for days afterwards
I was at Innerleithen the last two days in the snow, I have a Bentayga with with a hitch rack. You can see the straight hate people. I do not even have Gucci bikes. A norco FFS. Santa Cruz and Yeti. Lame bikes.
I dont think its the bikes thats the problem ......
A guy on one of the shoots when I lived on an estate had a Bentayga and got grief off a lot of people who had deep pockets.. I don't suspect it'd be any different from a carpark full of working and middle class blokes.
The bikes aren't the issue either, people can buy what they want (cars or bikes).. and getting judged is out of your control.. depends how you own it to if it affects you.
If you are enjoying yourself who cares... if you're moaning about other peoples stuff or that person is moaning then move on.. life is too short to be surrounded by nobbers.
I have a Nomad by the way... and its far from a lame bike. Lifetime warrantee on frame and wheels and didn't need a single part changing other than brake pads and tyres after 100 days of riding in the alps... think I'll keep it.
The Honda Crf Rally I alluded to is a 24hp 250 dual sport/trail/adventure bike with a Dakar style fairing/front end. It's £5k new from a dealers. Its VFM compared to any ebike (or most analogue bikes nowadays) is slanted in its favour although I accept it's not a like for like comparison it's still enough to turn my back on ~£1k forks, £2.5k frames etc that are worthless when the next trend comes along.
Unfortunately there are not enough trails you can legally ride a motorbike on anymore, if there was I probably wouldn't be riding a mountainbike
Sounds like you need to move StuE
Saw a couple of the hecklers today, they are nice looking bikes, massive downtubes, but that's to be expected, reality is they're pretty much priced in line with the rest of the SC collection, there will be a market for these and i can't see it not being a decent bike overall.
The Honda Crf Rally I alluded to is a 24hp 250 dual sport/trail/adventure bike with a Dakar style fairing/front end. It’s £5k new from a dealers. Its VFM compared to any ebike (or most analogue bikes nowadays) is slanted in its favour although I accept it’s not a like for like comparison it’s still enough to turn my back on ~£1k forks, £2.5k frames etc that are worthless when the next trend comes along.
But in the world of motorbikes, the crf250 rally is a budget model, and after a year or 2 on it you'd probably be wanting more power, better suspension, better brakes, and have part exchanged it for a ktm 790 adventure R at £11k...
The crf250 rally is a vitus hardtail when compared to mtbs.
The santa cruz heckler is a ducati multistrada 1260 enduro at £17,000.
I’m not that au fait with the car models, but I feel more like a slightly smug Skoda owner laughing at the prices people pay for Audis or Range Rovers.
Why would a Skoda owner be smug? Nothing wrong with them but they're white goods. Oh, and who ever above said a Golf is aspirational is wrong. I don't personally like Audi's but you can see where the extra money goes.
Getting back to the Santa Cruz (and ebikes in general), when you stop pedalling on the down bits, does the motor completely disengage? I'm sure some of the complaints on the older bikes were the level of resistance from the motor still being engaged? As far as the Heckler goes, I won't be getting one because I can't afford it. I also won't be getting a porsche for the same reason but I'm sure lots of people will buy one, and if that keeps people in employment then who am I to judge? As has been said before, it's not pretty but that won't change until motor/battery sizing reduces a fair bit. Love it or hate it, Ebikes seem to be the future, but whether that's a good thing is always going to split opinions.
Getting back to the Santa Cruz (and ebikes in general), when you stop pedalling on the down bits, does the motor completely disengage?
Yes, it’s a legal requirement that the motor only assists when you are pedalling. If you mean ‘is there any drag on the pedals from the motor, when the motor is turned off’ then I can only speak first hand for the Specialized system, which doesn’t have any, but I’m pretty sure the shimano system used on the SC doesn’t either.
Yep, my Levo rides just like a normal bike (with some extra ballast) with the power turned off. Personally I prefer how the extra mass makes it handle in all but uphill situations, and especially in terms of suspension behaviour and when you’re airborne.
That’s the thing though. Customers don’t see the sub £4K market as ‘still really good’. They see it as ‘its a third the price of the stuff I see in the mags/on Instagram, so must be inferior. I can’t afford £12k for the good stuff, so I won’t bother.’
Brands should never assume 'customers' are one thing, one mentality or 'all like us'. But it's easy to see the market through your own eyes. Price is marketing, price positioning is how every brand finds space in the market, etc. Brands like Bird make great bikes at a good value RRP. Other brands make Al FS bikes with slicker marketing and stories and cool team riders and add 30% to the RRP. People buy into one or another because they're different types of consumers.
You and I buy bikes differently Tom - with respect, I know you're happy to pay for stuff that I wouldn't be interested in even at trade price and that's no criticism or dig, it's just that I see value in different things or types of product. We're almost opposite ends of the rider-consumer line, we support different parts of the market and different brands. A £12k MTB has absolutely no impact on how I relate to MTB as a pass-time, scene, etc either. If you owned one and we rode together it would make no difference to how I see you as a rider - only a hint at you as a consumer.
Almost no-one of basic fitness and health needs a battery or full suspension to have fun on a bike off-road. If you do see it as a need or you're into Enduro racing vs 'just riding off-road' you just need to accept the costs are far higher, you're into a different game now - how much higher links into how you see brands, value, yourself as a consumer etc. SC are using price as marketing here, that's all.
We’re almost opposite ends of the rider-consumer line
- btw not meant as 100% rider one end, 100% consumer the other, reads wrongly. More like riders as consumers, about willingness to spend on tech - or the retrogrouch to loves-new-gear line.
There is a tiny bit of extra drag when pedaling and the motor not running because you are turning a few more bits ie a clutch ( on most bikes). Its insignificant tho
On the bosch ones with the small drive sprocket there is a chunk more drag as you are turning an reduction gear as well
You are not turning the motor tho
When you are freewheeling there is no extra drag
Customers don’t see the sub £4K market as ‘still really good’. They see it as ‘its a third the price of the stuff I see in the mags/on Instagram, so must be inferior.
Sorry I can't see where this was originally posted, so I'm not sure who I'm addressing - but I'm sure it's a red herring.
I have a wide circle of riding buddies, all been into it for years and know what's what kit-wise. Not sure anyone's on a bike that cost more than £4k.
Personally my Radon cost me £2k, and I've put maybe £600 of upgrades on it (adjusting for sale of OE parts) - and there's nothing I'd change. Lyrik RC2, Float X2, Hope/E13 wheels, Code brakes - decent overall weight, progressive geometry and 170mm travel both ends - it's a very fast and capable bike which I'm sure is a match for the SC Megatower or whatever premium brand bike.
To suggest that £12k bikes somehow devalue £3k or £4k bikes is daft and I'd be a bit more robust than James and suggest anyone thinking that needs to spend more time riding and less time on the internet.
If the £4k figure was specifically about eBikes (which doesn't seem the case from James' reply), then that's not my area of expertise.
Why would a Skoda owner be smug? Nothing wrong with them but they’re white goods.
All cars (and bikes) are white goods, that's exactly my point. A Skoda is a Hotpoint fridge and a Range Rover is a Smeg frigde. They do the same job at widely differing prices, but one has a certain "prestige" in the mind of the buyer. Who may be considered a mug or a snob by some.
who ever above said a Golf is aspirational is wrong
I'm not a car enthusiast, but the only time I can remember anyone telling me they aspired to own a particular car in the last 20 years was a woman I used to work with.
Doing quite well and promoted into middle management in media in London, she said "I'm buying a VW Golf, I've always wanted to have one."
But she must have been wrong.
“I have a wide circle of riding buddies, all been into it for years and know what’s what kit-wise. Not sure anyone’s on a bike that cost more than £4k.”
I think a handful of people I ride with have a bike that cost a bit more than that but not very many. And that’s out of a lot of people.
Regarding ebikes, £5k got me a Levo with Hope V4 brakes, a BikeYoke Revive dropper and a 160mm Lyrik RC2. And that’s a current model Levo, which is far from the best value ebike, bought from my LBS. I struggle to see how an ebike could be any better, different sure, but quantifiably better, doubtful. It’s a hell of a lot of money anyway, even if you could spend more than twice as much!
who ever above said a Golf is aspirational is wrong
Aspiration isn't only related to price. The Golf is one of the strongest brand/model names in that part of the market, has been for decades. An original hot-hatch and marketed well ever since. Brand power, all about aspiration whether that's aspiring to an image or elitism. Backs up why I think a mid-range bike can still be aspirational, that £12k premium price aspiration doesn't negatively impact on image/attitude type of aspiration.
Edit, look at how many aspired to Sick! Bikes brand image... followed them like the pied piper, keen to align with all that radness.
If the £4k figure was specifically about eBikes (which doesn’t seem the case from James’ reply), then that’s not my area of expertise.
Tom's post was how this £12k model affects perception of the £4k type equivalent, so e-bikes here, or custom road bikes, pretty much the same thing.
Backs up why I think a mid-range bike can still be aspirational, that £12k premium price aspiration doesn’t negatively impact on image/attitude type of aspiration.
As alluded to already, ebikes are often touted as a way of getting people who maybe wouldn't ride a normal bike out on the trails.
Imagine someone who is interested in getting one who walks into a shop knowing nothing about bikes and sees a £12k one on the wall, asks if they have anything cheaper and gets shown the "entry level" model at £4k.
What percentage of people are just going to walk out at that point knowing that they will never be able to afford to get into the sport? Many people equate that the second cheapest option is often the best wine choice in a restaurant, so say that's £5k.
Honestly how many people can really afford that as an entry into a sport?
Back in 1997 when I was 17 my dream bike/car combo was a Santa Cruz heckler and a golf GTI , currently have a flare max and a Honda although if someone offered me a Bronson and a golf I wouldn’t say no .
Im not sure these expensive bikes are going to threaten mtbing , if anything I think these days there is an abundance of really good relatively cheaper bikes from the likes of Bird , nukeproof , canyon etc and that ibis ripmo af looks the business . I do a few enduro races and although you do see a few 6k bikes you see far more 2 to 3 k ones . Just as people will buy the heckler there will be more on vitus , canyon , yt etc
Honestly how many people can really afford that as an entry into a sport?
How many people think like that ? Pretty much everyone I know who rides started with a relatively cheap hardtail moved on to a better hardtail before getting a full suss .
The thing about ebikes getting new people into mtbing is interesting as I would reckon at the moment most people who own a full suss ebike are already mtbers with a normal bike . I wonder if you took someone who had never ridden before to say glentress and they rode an ebike and had a brilliant time would they think about buying an ebike or a normal bike , would they see what they had done as mtbing or emtbing and view them as different activities.
Imagine someone who is interested in getting one who walks into a shop knowing nothing about bikes and sees a £12k one on the wall, asks if they have anything cheaper and gets shown the “entry level” model at £4k.
What percentage of people are just going to walk out at that point knowing that they will never be able to afford to get into the sport<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">?</span>
As already pointed out, there has always been a very expensive "top end", S-Works, Pinarellos etc have been around for decades. Most folk aren't interested in spending that amount of money and know that when they go into a shop. Folk don't walk into a bike shop, see a £6k SC and then walk out, they ask about what is available within their budget. I don't think that the general public are as shallow as many folk on here seem to be suggesting.
What percentage of people are just going to walk out at that point knowing that they will never be able to afford to get into the sport?
I don't think many people are walking into bike shops aspiring to start in the sport of powered technical terrain mountain biking, or if they are they're like kite surfers or jet skiers and prepared to pay for the gadgets.
The 'sport' thing as some see it here and the 'new riders' is misaligned. In your example the customer walked into a shop that's not selling well to them, or a specialist shop - entry price points for a leisure E-MTB (one for people that wouldn't usually ride) is about £2k for an E-hardtail that will do well on basic to middling trails. A E-FS at £12k, even £4-5k, may be about as relevant to them as someone looking at ice-climbing gear for winter walks in the valleys.
- If you need E- or FS or both to get out on 'tech trails' then pay the price, £3k or more. If you just want to get out on a bike it's much cheaper.
Honestly how many people can really afford that as an entry into a sport?
Another way I'd look at this - how many people can afford a £25k+ car on HP when paying half that does the same job? Many. In comparison a £5k bike isn't a stretch? No-one's being put off 'the sport' based on E-bike pricing, sales suggest the opposite - average selling prices are up and e-bike sales are booming. New riders who wouldn't have spent £800 on a hybrid before are buying £2k+ e-bikes, the spend hike on FS MTBs to E-FS is probably smaller % wise but not much. The E- part adds value in ways that many of us who are long-time cyclists don't appreciate or relate to.
Pretty much everyone I know who rides started with a relatively cheap hardtail moved on to a better hardtail before getting a full suss .
That's kind of my point.
What's the cheapest ebike you can get that isn't just complete tat? £2k? Maybe?
What's a decent non ebike? £600?
The amount of people who just will instantly be turned off when they find out that even the most basic entry level model costs so much I think will be very high. I'm sure many people equate "entry level" to mean "for beginners" as well.
Conversely, I would suggest that if you live somewhere hilly and aren’t keen on pedalling hard, then a ebike is vastly more appealing than a normal bike - it might cost more but its more than justified in the pleasure some people would get from it.
We are mountain bikers - we like pedalling pretty hard or we wouldn’t have ending up with this hobby! Loads of people like the idea of cruising through the countryside, not getting rad downhill or blowing up their lungs and legs uphill, basically going for a nice walk but going further thanks to wheels and having a motor to make the uphills less horrible.
Also I’m quite happy pedalling hard and like how much quicker my commutes are, the time saved easily justifies the cost.