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One thing I noticed with the spec SL it had 2.3 tyres as opposed 2.6 which a lot of ebikes seem to favour, clearly to get the published weight down, they are all at it
I have wondered why this is ??? I swapped tyres from the wifes Ebike to 2.3s and really helps its handling.
when was the last time SC did something innovative?
Wee metal chain slap plate
There’s some brilliant suggestions for Santa Cruz ebike names over on pinkbike - to think they could have gone 29er and called it the PowerTower, MegaPower or LazyBoy!
Daft question, when was the last tone SC did something innovative
They jumped on 650b fairly early with the Solo (as was) and the Bronson. That was 7 years ago, mind.
Daft question, when was the last time SC did something innovative? I know a few folk who ride them and by all accounts what they do they do well but it’s all tried and tested stuff. That’s not a bad thing but being surprised it’s not innovative is a bit like being surprised that Simon Cowell’s next huge commercial success isn’t a death metal band.
Not a daft question at all. I ride a SC and it's the nicest bike i've ever ridden by far. Its just really well balanced and responsive. But it's certainly not innovative or groundbreaking. But i'm not really after innovative. I tend to hold on to my bikes for about 3-4 years so i'll quite happily let others test new ideas first as bikes are too expensive for me to "experiment" with.
While the Saracen has an alu front triangle and the battery mounted on the down tube instead of in it and only one spec (equivalent to the second-tier Santa Cruz build), they’re only £3k as opposed to £7.7k
Where does the extra 4.7k come from then? Even if you class the Saracen frame as a freebie that's one hell of a difference for a frame. All the bits that hang off it, including the motor must be at a similar fixed cost (Accepting that Saracen will get the Shimano bits cheaper).
They jumped on 650b fairly early with the Solo (as was) and the Bronson. That was 7 years ago, mind.
No earlier than anyone else though?
You'd have thought for £12000 they'd have included the axs dropper post.
Jeez.
Where does the extra 4.7k come from then?
Partially, comparing RRP of a new product to an older heavily discounted one?
No earlier than anyone else though?
and since when was a 1.2" bigger wheel considered innovative?
I guess a fair chunk of their natural market are keen on ebikes so they were losing sales. Fair enough. But it doesn't really look as though their heart is in it. "Stick a Shimano motor in whichever of our bikes looks most appropriate. That should prop the sales up for a bit". Smacks a bit of "lets see if this fad lasts" to me. Who'd be a bike company though. Endlessly re-tooling to chase the latest trend in a declining market.
Why does everyone insist on the horrid tube width combo on an e mtb? I get that they "hide" the batteries in that god awful down tube and one hulking great unit is the [s] laziest [/s] best way to do it but why pair that with a skinny top tube that just serves to make it look ap the worse/more obvious.
Stick a Shimano motor in …
Stick a Shimano groupset on…
They jumped on 650b fairly early with the Solo (as was) and the Bronson. That was 7 years ago, mind.
No earlier than anyone else though?
maybe it was just the timing as it was not long after I started mtbing seriously - but to me the original Bronson defined a genre that we now take for granted.
I'm not saying they were completely first, but they jumped in with two feet with their new flagship - see how (for example), two of the perennial names in MTB, Orange 5 and the Stumpjumper, responded to the Bronson.
They've innovated heavily in the DH race world, not that that has much implication on the majority of us (or even on the DH bike owning Bike Park riding public)
to me the original Bronson defined a genre that we now take for granted
I think that's more to do with it doing the job better* than its contemporaries rather than blazing a trail though, it launched about the same time as the 5 650b the geometry wasn't anything significantly off beat with everything else and so on.
They’ve innovated heavily in the DH race world
Admittedly not my area of interest but, I recall they put a 29er fork on the V10 a good hour before the competition rolled out a proper 29er DH bike** but I don't really remember anything else which has been shouted about.
*or if you're in the other camp just with more marketing/a price tag that needed more post purchase justification.
**I fully accept this might be as wrong as as hanging a photo of Maggie Thatcher in a bikini on your bedroom wall.
You're all ignoring the important news here, there's gonna be a new Danny Mac video 👍
Ugly bike from a boring brand. But, ebike, so I'm sure the trails will be swamped with them soon enough.
, there’s gonna be a new Danny Mac video 👍
The outtakes are going to be that much more painful given the weight of that thing.
Admittedly not my area of interest but, I recall they put a 29er fork on the V10 a good hour before the competition rolled out a proper 29er DH bike** but I don’t really remember anything else which has been shouted about.
Preface - I'm more of a syndicate (the race team) fanboi than I am of the bikes/brand
was t'other way around. All off-season developing and practising the 29er V10 (complete with some media misdirection with pics of hightowers with triple clamps.) which necessarily included collaboration with fox and maxxis.
Show up at the first race of the season, qualified well, then a rain affected race which added to the uncertainty of whether it was actually any good.
Next race half the teams have hacked their bikes about with prototype rear ends and linkages to squeeze some big wheels in.
Also worthy of note is the first carbon DH bike; and the first iteration V10 suspension when it first came out was fairly gamechanging.
Possibly by virtue of having the three tall riders of Peat, Minaar and Bryceland rather than otherworldly foresight, but they also led the way for the long race bikes we see today.
And don't forget the anal setup nerds that are Minaar and Marsh. They may have got things wrong and they may have done things irrelevant to those not racing WC DH; but they've made things a lot more scientific than the decade before.
^all random memories of a fan, may not be entirely 100% accurate
Who’d be a bike company though. Endlessly re-tooling to chase the latest trend in a declining market.
It's the bike companies that have driving the change, not consumers- e-bikes might be the first time, off the top of my head, that consumers are pushing for change, and it's costing the manufacturers to innovate, unlike other recent changes.
Heckler, it might look a bit dated, but SC have the resources to be able to sit back and watch through a development cycle, then next time deliver something that's a bit more at the top of the game.
How big is Santa Cruz compared to the others. within this market?
I know the haters like to claim they are no longer boutique etc.,
What are the sales figures (number of bikes) from SC compared to the high end MTBs of say Spesh or Trek?
Both of those companies have thriving Road, Hybrid and $400 MTB-shaped hybrid ranges that surely dwarfs proper MTBs, where SC does not, so I cant find a meaningful comparison figure.
So much hate for the brand and bike , I think it looks well in the yellow, Its a brand that looks after its customers. The bikes normally ride well and if someone wants to splurge a load of coin on something they like so what. I mean other big brands offer builds at daft price points.
The bike looks nice and if Dannys chucking another vid out soon on the bike thats a plus.
It looks nice, will do the job and work just as well as most of their offerings, but i do think the 504wh battery is a big mistake, at a time when the likes of specialized and others move to 700wh it's giving them an advantage over selling to the over 50s and those not quite as fit as they used to be, who will want a bit of power in reserve, and more than likely be the ones with the money to buy 10k bikes.
SC get disproportionate hate on here, yes they make expensive bikes, but they make affordable alloy stuff too, that a lot of their competitors dont make. And they're great to deal with on warranty and always have been. Lots of them about for a reason.
the 504wh battery is a big mistake, at a time when the likes of specialized and others move to 700wh
I have the Levo with the 500wh and it's fine, plus the bigger battery adds weight. I suspect they're limited by Shimano with respect to battery size anyway. Looks like a nice bike, wished they'd gone 29er as that's my preference. Interesting to hear how roskopp thinks ebikes will be 50% of their range in a few years.
And for those saying how they're behind the tech as the Levo SL is showing how it should be done aren't really understanding that the SL is completely different from a normal ebike.
+1 for those grotesque fat downtubes on ebikes being a massive turn off.
It's like the bike equivalent of a combover.
I'd rather have the battery lumped onto a normal-ish tube.
SC get disproportionate hate on here, yes they make expensive bikes, but they make affordable alloy stuff too
More affordable, but still not great value, there’s some pretty budget kit on the mid priced stuff.
It’s like the bike equivalent of a combover.
It's more like a pot belly on a ballerina. All these svelte dainty tubes everywhere else then massive fat paunch that just looks completely out of place.
I wish they'd either size up the rest of the tubes or split the batteries out into a few smaller packages.
So much hate for the brand and bike
For a thread about an[y] ebike this one seems to be pretty measured.
For a thread about a santa cruz, this one seems to be doing fairly well.
For a thread about a santa cruz ebike i'm staggered how reasonable this thread has remained, I'll be honest I expected my phone to spray me with actual bile by the end of page 1.
+1 for those grotesque fat downtubes on ebikes being a massive turn off.
It’s like the bike equivalent of a combover.
I’d rather have the battery lumped onto a normal-ish tube.
I don't know how anyone can think this looks 'good', it's like they just slapped a battery onto the downtube with no thought or design.
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Ignoring the Heckler, I'm looking forward to more bikes like the levo sl - not much heavier than a normal bike, with the same range and just reduced power. Lets face it, you don't need turbo mode for most riding, and if I was doing big days out in the mountains (the main reason why I'd consider an e-bike) I'd prefer not to give myself a hernia whe lifting it over gates or having some hike-a-bike.
Might as well buy one of these 🙂 MSRP: 10,499.00 USD
Aaaand there we are.
3 pages until motorbike.
🙂
I rode over 27 miles on my YT Decoy at the weekend
LOL - I remember back in the UK that distance used to be a normal MTB ride, you're all getting soft!
Interesting to hear how roskopp thinks ebikes will be 50% of their range in a few years.
Higher-end enduro style MTB market/sales will be more than 50% ebikes in a few years imo. 75% plus perhaps.
(Will be interesting to see how that comment ages)
I rode over 27 miles on my YT Decoy at the weekend
LOL – I remember back in the UK that distance used to be a normal MTB ride, you’re all getting soft!
The distance alone wasn't really the point (I've ridden that distance on my "normal" bike before), but the time it took to do it. That would've taken me 4-5 hours on a normal bike, whereas on my Decoy it was more like 3. For a lot of people with time constraints, ebikes help to get more riding in.
I don’t know how anyone can think this looks ‘good’, it’s like they just slapped a battery onto the downtube with no thought or design.
Yup that... It may be functional, but even something like this has had some effort.
[img] 
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I don’t know how anyone can think this looks ‘good’, it’s like they just slapped a battery onto the downtube with no thought or design.
At least the lurid paintjob distracts from the big lump on the downtube.
But seriously, ebikes are the perfect demonstration of the adage "you can't polish a turd".
Trying too hard makes them look even more tragic.
For a lot of people with time constraints, ebikes help to get more riding in.
I still don't understand this. 3 hours riding on a ebike, is the same as 3 hours on a normal bike. Just because you go further doesn't mean you rode more.
Is it just me or does that Liv have the longest bottle cage bolts in the world?
But seriously, ebikes are the perfect demonstration of the adage “you can’t polish a turd”.
I guess the issue is there's a lot of market at the lower end and that's what the batteries are designed for, it just feels like, rather than developing a battery format which suits a decent frame design the industry is happy slapping a huge rectangular lump of BSO power source "inside" the down tube instead because its off the shelf and cheap design wise (I assume the cells are better on the whole on things like the heckler but the case is the same.)
Is it just me or does that Liv have the longest bottle cage bolts in the world?
They're 5mm spacers... not really sure why, but they're not used on ours now.
I still don’t understand this. 3 hours riding on a ebike, is the same as 3 hours on a normal bike.
It's really not the same. It depends what type of riding you enjoy the most, You can get far more dh runs in with an ebike for example.
They’re 5mm spacers… not really sure why
Designer 1: I'm done guys, that's as ugly as I can make it and I've only $0.03 left in budget.
Designer 2: hold my beer.
It’s really not the same. It depends what type of riding you enjoy the most, You can get far more dh runs in with an ebike for example.
Yeah, that's obvious. More runs compared to pushing back up the hill.
But the post I quoted was talking about riding 30 odd miles quicker, so I`m assuming they are talking about old skool riding and not going up and down the same hill a lot.
Some people would struggle to ride 30 miles of proper MTB riding (me included and I ride at least twice a week all year round) so if you wanted to ride 30 miles and have the enjoyment of that length of ride then all good isn't it.
Still can never see me getting an eBike and even less so a £7K+ one but what's the problem with those that do.
Higher-end enduro style MTB market/sales will be more than 50% ebikes in a few years imo. 75% plus perhaps.
(Will be interesting to see how that comment ages)
What's the ratio at the moment, do we know?
I don't have your industry insight but I'd guess more like 25% of "proper" mid/long-travel MTBs might be electric in the medium term.
Feels more like about 10% at the mo, but perhaps there are higher proportions darn sarf.
We should have a sweepstake anyway.
Still can never see me getting an eBike and even less so a £7K+ one but what’s the problem with those that do
People don't like change; or the perception that those with e-bikes don't have to work as hard for the same trails. Or that they make people lazy and fat; or that they have more money than skills. It's all bollocks though - as long as people get out and enjoy riding. I don't get the hate. Personally I think a lot of it is envy 😉
Personally I think a lot of it is envy
No way you'd get an enve ebike for 7k
Serious question - There's aspirational at 3/4/5k, then there's a 6.5K starting price. Am I the only one that thinks this is not a great direction for MTB to be heading? Are we risking removing the basic premise that all comers are welcome? Yes I appreciate e-bikes are cheaper from other brands, but what we're seeing is a move to a whole different level of attainable. Even if you can afford it now you have to seriously question the value. For someone looking at a stretch purchase its now totally off limits.
Yes eBike motors add a whack to the price, but really probably a grand would cover a like for like bike at retail, so this trend is price hikes for the sake of it. SC didn't start it but I think they've been previously held as the attainable-aspirational bike. Not any more, and I think thats bad for MTB generally. What say you?
Serious question – There’s aspirational at 3/4/5k, then there’s a 6.5K starting price. Am I the only one that thinks this is not a great direction for MTB to be heading? Are we risking removing the basic premise that all comers are welcome?
I think with E-bikes we're already WAY WAY past that point.
With a few exceptions you can find some bikes in the budget bracket to do a job... But it's tough. All of mine and many of my mates bikes for both the adults and the youngsters who are all riding are all buying them used.]
Even that is CRAZY though to an extent.... My lads bike this weekend was £1100.... for an 11 year old.... That's just bonkers... That's used, not new !
No hatred or envy. If people enjoy them that's fine by me. Personally I struggle to see the point of them and find it hard to believe that they will be more than a niche product in the long run.
I've said before that eMTBs are for the old and unfit in the same way that fatbikes are for snow and sand. By which I mean that they are not. Both can be enjoyed by groups outside of that core market. But both also come with downsides and in the long term (once all the marketing hype has died down) it's mainly that core group (who don't have viable alternatives) who will stick with them. There are still people riding (and enjoying) fatbikes on regular trails and there will still be young fit people enjoying eMTBs in five years time, but my guess is that it wont be many, because for most people, most of the time they aren't really the best option.
As has been said above, most of us are limited by time. If you have, say, 4 hours a week to ride then what does going a bit further actually gain you? There are only so many local trails, so you just end up repeating them more often. But there is also a price to pay. Both financially and (if that is your main form of exercise) in loss of (aerobic) fitness. I just don't think, for most people that is going to be a price worth paying in the long term. For some yes, but not for many I don't think. But of course, I could be wrong.
Fugly and overpriced !! They’ll sell loads 🙂
If you have, say, 4 hours a week to ride then what does going a bit further actually gain you?
I get that for some folk, the decent trails might be 10 miles away. Making that bit go quicker/easier with the help of electronic assistance would prevent having to load up a car (faff and environmental concerns).
A huge wodge of money though. I can't honestly see me ever paying out that on a bicycle. The most I've ever paid was £2.5k and that hurt 😉
Am I the only one that thinks this is not a great direction for MTB to be heading? Are we risking removing the basic premise that all comers are welcome?
That depends on if we get to a point where the only MTBs available are eMTBs that started at £2,000+
Can't really see that happening as there will always be a market for those that can't afford £2,000+ or don't wan tot spend £2,000+ on an MTB
Benpinnick - I don't think it's a bad thing provided you have competition at all price points. I can't think of a single consumer market where this doesn't exist. If the likes of Vitus start pushing pricing, using the likes of Santa Cruz as an excuse then yes, it would be negative.
Specifically re Santa Cruz - wouldn't they have had to pay a fair bit for r&d on test mules as well as the costs associated with the new frame mould. They will presumably want to recoup that outlay as quickly as possible to bring new models out going forward. Serious question rather than a dig: from a business perspective could you create a bird ebike (new front triangle, shock curve and tune to suit the bike etc) and justify selling it for £1k more than an equivalently specced standard bike now?
Price wise, looks like the top spec Bronson (on which this is based), is £9399, the same spec Heckler is £12000. So £2600 extra for a big downtube, a bought in motor and battery.
Doing it for a grand extra might be a struggle.
Ebikes are fugly as. Doesn't matter whether they've made "effort" - they're unavoidably ugly compared to bikes.
Ebikes are a bit like vapes. Nobody looks cool vaping - they look like berks 🙂
I'd argue this one doesn't look too bad
^^you see I think that's pretty good, a lot of the "just a bit of assistance" type road bikes look quite nice.
Specifically re Santa Cruz – wouldn’t they have had to pay a fair bit for r&d on test mules as well as the costs associated with the new frame mould. They will presumably want to recoup that outlay as quickly as possible to bring new models out going forward.
Serious question rather than a dig: from a business perspective could you create a bird ebike (new front triangle, shock curve and tune to suit the bike etc) and justify selling it for £1k more than an equivalently specced standard bike now?
Yes they would have spent some money on moulds, test rigs etc. Excluding the man hours the capital cost is probably about 10 top end model monies worth! Its not as expensive as people might have you think.
For us, we're aiming straight at the Turbo Levo SL market with a lighter weight motor on a lighter weight frame, and yes when/if we launch one it will be priced like we took a regular bike and added a motor, not a whole extra bike 😉
when/if we launch one
You might have trouble with the name, birdE already make folding bikes.
Serious question – There’s aspirational at 3/4/5k, then there’s a 6.5K starting price. Am I the only one that thinks this is not a great direction for MTB to be heading? Are we risking removing the basic premise that all comers are welcome? Yes I appreciate e-bikes are cheaper from other brands, but what we’re seeing is a move to a whole different level of attainable. Even if you can afford it now you have to seriously question the value. For someone looking at a stretch purchase its now totally off limits.
Santa Cruz is not the right brand to consider when discussing this question as they are at the top end of the market in terms of pricing (the carbon Bronson frame this bike is based on costs a whopping £2639).
There are are base-level e-mtbs at that aspirational £3/4K level such as the Vitus E-Sommet, Spesh Levo, YT Decoy etc. Whether they are good value or not is up to the consumer as with any purchase.
Interesting comments @benpinnick The cynic in me often wonders whether the enthusiasm for ebikes from some manufacturers might be about getting customers used to paying more for bikes.
Since you are thinking of producing one you're presumably seeing a demand from your customers and are confident that demand will last, which is interesting. As I said, I can't see the point in them, but I guess plenty of people can.
I agree that some of the road offerings look OK and I did (briefly) toy with the idea when I bought my latest grave/adventure/whatever bike. Initially there was some appeal. I could have the comfort of those wider tyres and a more upright position but still be as fast as on my "race" bike. But I get a certain satisfaction from a 100 mile ride, which would be diminished if I knew the motor had done some of the work.
still be as fast as on my “race” bike.
Not without finding those 100mi rides much more taxing as all the motor would be doing is weighing you down, unless you're slow on said race bike. (or the bike isn't restricted to 15mph)
Ah, good point. I hadn't even considered that. It is hilly enough round here so it might still work out to be a benefit, but you are right, the logic on a "fast" road bike is even more tricky. Depends whether there is any drag when the motor cuts out I guess.
What’s the ratio at the moment, do we know?
30%? Of new sales / sales growth vs last year it's growing all the time. Of the bikes on the trails it's lower as you say, will lag behind for a few years.
The cynic in me often wonders whether the enthusiasm for ebikes from some manufacturers might be about getting customers used to paying more for bikes.
Not cynical ... the power system adds a big chunk but there's no bike brand out there that doesn't welcome the hike in average selling prices. It's as much customer demand as sales push though. The value for the customer is there at the entry-mid level, you spend more but get more. £12k worth here? It's like a £70k car isn't it. Luxury spend. But every brand will get onto it imo - for the mid to large companies that can do them well there's just no brand positioning to be had by stubbornly staying with non-powered bikes only - unless you're a pure XC race brand, and who uses XC and climbing for marketing now?
£12k worth here? It’s like a £70k car isn’t it. Luxury spend.
I dont think it is though. Of the 12k a very small proportion is in the bit Santa Cruz make, whereas your 70k car is (ignoring the factory it comes from) made by the car maker. You're buying into every switch, cable and engine part. You're buying into the assembly, aftercare and resale value. On the bike, you're basically paying for a £3000* frame with £9000 worth of someone elses parts on it. That don't cost £9000 to buy and assemble. For anyone. And thats the issue I see. If eBikes are the catalyst for once moderately expensive brands to leap to a whole new level of expensive, then that I fear will be the damaging legacy of eBikes, not whether they rip up trails more/less/the same.
* I dont know if the frame has a price, but that would be reasonable.
Edit - its worth saying its happened before with say Specialized selling bikes that cost more than the sum of their parts, but that hasn't caught on, but with EBikes they seem to be trying it again (no Specialized though, interestingly).
On the bike, you’re basically paying for a £3000* frame with £9000 worth of someone elses parts on it. That don’t cost £9000 to buy and assemble. For anyone.
i'm suprised that there aren't really any frame only options for e-bikes.
I dont think it is though.
Not in that sense I agree. More in sense of price positioning - price as marketing as much as anything, 'the best is most expensive'. Not saying it's good value in my eyes, but it's all subjective. Also not an option for many brands to price product that way.
i’m suprised that there aren’t really any frame only options for e-bikes.
Indeed. Folk who have already built up a high-spec analogue bike might find it easier/cheaper to move to assisted riding if they could take all/most of their parts with them. I guess there's simply less money to be made that way.
I guess the decision to use the CC frame is part of this move to push the price up. Using a frame material that is a fair bit more expensive but only saves 200g on a bike with a motor seems daft. Then, when they are questioned about the range on the battery they say that you can always carry a spare as it's only an extra 3Kg in your pack 🙂
Its one of the reasons that we're looking at lower power, lighter options. The big motors (which I personally think have only got a few years left in them before the smaller ones offer natural ride feel & equal ride time but thats an aside) have a tendency to destroy everything - drive/wheels etc. Lower power motors will get us back to a point where we're able to be weight weenies, and obsess over grams, and constantly swap bits around, which is as important as the ride... well sort of. Anyway, it makes a motorised frame possible. You will be stuck with my choice of motor, but otherwise go nuts.
Using a frame material that is a fair bit more expensive but only saves 200g on a bike with a motor seems daft.
Not when you look at how much it costs to make a carbon frame vs alu and then look at how much they sell for. Then you know why Yeti stopped making Alu.
You will be stuck with my choice of motor, but otherwise go nuts.
Do it 🙂
I've no doubt there would be a market for this.
The Lappiere with the Fazua motor appeals more to me.
Same sort of weight as a heavy trail/Enduro bike but with assistance.
And once battery runs out or removed pedals more like a normal bike.
My feeling is that there is no right or wrong, it does not matter what any of us think. You can get a Mountain bike for under £1k or anything through to £12k , you can have a motor or not , Person A thinks Bike Y is ugly and Person B thinks its pretty - neither is right or wrong. Your not being forced into spending £10k or restricted to spending £600 so no point in bitching about the cost of £10k+ bikes - its called choice, and we have a wide ranging choice - the last few years has seen the growth of very good £1k-£2k bikes so there is more great choices than ever.
The thing to remember is this is Fun, you dont need a £10k bike to have fun , fun can be had on a £600 hardtail (possibly more fun depending on how you look at it) so buy at the price point you can afford and justify to yourself and then go and have fun.
So tell me - has geex been banned? or is my killfile just working well?
Geex is sadly missed, indeed.
I would expect Santa Cruz are using the cc carbon on this one to recoup the cost of investment in new tools/motors and the like.
Once the first batch of big ticket bikes are sold then the c variant and even possibly alu versions will appear.
Personally I think (hope) the fact that there are still some boutique brands missing from the e bike market is keeping the price of the bikes artificially high. The fact that the tech still isn't 'really' mature yet is keeping them away and the manufacturers who are selling e bikes are making some money on the high demand/interest in them.
The lighter/smaller motor and battery combo bikes appeal to me (really like the look of the Levo SL) but again, until there are more of this style of bike on the market the price will stay high.
I'm more disappointed that they have sullied the Heckler name as an e bike! I really wanted to see some single pivots return from them in the future with that historic name but hey ho....
If you are missing geex you can find him upsetting people on the EMTB website forums
I'm guessing frame only (,i.e including motor) doesn't work from a warranty/support/ letting someone wire everything up themselves point of view