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Hey there, they are on every bloody magazine and every social network, whether it's facebook, instagram or random forums.
Are they really that good? Or are they just very fashionable bikes?
Or is it that because they are silly money everyone wants one?
Its just that vpp is really that good!
😉
I got rid of my SC and am sticking with my Intense.
Is it because people keep starting threads about them?
http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/why-are-there-so-many-santa-cruz-bikes-about-at-the-moment
I test rode a Carbon Bronson and it left me a feeling a bit "meh". Much prefer the Burner I bought in the end. I think it was just the VPP I wasn't used to.
Santacruz bikes look nice though.
Well built, well designed, reliable, robust, easy to maintain, great support & warranty and look fantastic. There's a reason why they are popular and the frames are expensive. You get what you pay for.
That's what made them popular back when they were just a niche bike. Now they're mainstream, and are still just as good.
That's not to say there aren't some fantastic bikes for half the price though.
Noting though that in my opinion all brand new bikes are way over priced. The same with a brand new car. Let depreciation kick in and you have an amazing bike for sensible money.
This chap seems to like 'em.
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and most of what deadkenny said.
I thought they were expensive because the appear to give loads away that have to be funded by the rest of us who have to pay for them.
Personally I find them too short so not for me.
Danny Macaskill rates them highly and to be fair he does give them some serious stick.
I like cause there so shiny, but realistically they would be wasted on me and therefore I stick to the old horses for courses rule.
Great marketing is the thing, they're not massively better than most other bikes. I've got one and it's been really reliable & fun, which is all its about really
Mines the bollox and its retro 26"
Nice bikes but it is only with the new Nomad that they have started making them long and slack. Certainly most folk riding really steep stuff run anglesets on them (including Santacruz's owner, so the story goes).
Reliable, fun and enjoying mine. I still have my 2010 Zesty but tbh I prefer riding the Bonson.
hype IMHO
A bike can only ride as good as it's frame geometry allows and most of them have been pretty woeful. Any I've ridden felt too high and too short, rode much like a Lapierre to me. Nothing special, quite terrible in some instances.
Of course that's totally subjective, my opinion might be different if I'd accidentally spent £5000 on one. Finish on some of the frames I sold was nothing to write home about either.
The new Nomad looks to be on the money geometry wise though.
As always all this is just opinion. Try before you buy is the best advice to decide if a bike is for you
"Reliable" is an interesting word. Everyone I can think of that I've met with a recent model moans like **** about the pivots being shit, and I've seen one pivot eat a frame. Threading straight into carbonz? I'll pass thanks
One of they're carbon frames I noticed flex in bk end even though they said that tgeyre rear triangles are stiff enough.
Put it this way, if your gonna spunk £2500 on a frame, SC would be up there on list ,,, shirley!? Perhaps not but if you get on with vpp and like carbon which I personally think is a great material for producing mtb frames out of for several reasons, designed around geo, suss design and inherent carbon super powers of taking the sting out of bad vibes and not to mention pedal to wheel transfer of energy but again geo has to be right for the job and rider.
And yet "everyone I can think of" has never had a pivot eat their frame or really have issues with the pivots beyond the standard of having to do the bearings from time to time (which are under lifetime warranty and to be honest is the same with bucket loads of other brands. I've had mine done once out of 3 years ownership).
If you go by "I know this guy" statistics, I can think of plenty of other well known brands that seem to be no end of trouble.
They're all pretty average/crap apart from the Nomad. Great geo and sizing on that bike. If it had a different suspension system I would be on one for sure.
I cant't understand the vpp haters as all other designs are pretty dull feeling in comparison.
Vpps need to be ragged the shit out of to get full benefit from the suss design ime.
The paint on mine was utterly diabolical. Every time I tightened a bolt the paint would flake off.
Not too keen on "ragging the shit" out of a bike that's trying to chuck me over the bars.
Maybe Santacruz bikes, rather than being Skill Compensators require Special Skillz to ride them...
I have to agree with chickenman above I am on my fourth SC bike and i have gone over the bars on all of them, useless things
Nice to hear from the spesh salesman again! 🙄
They are good, but they are far too expensive here in the uk. In the us, the prices are more comparable with other good brands.
Sounds like poor shock set up and/or shit skills if people are going over the bars. Same applies to most bikes. I know from experience, and the bike itself has never been at fault, Santa Cruz or not.
They're all pretty average/crap apart from the Nomad. Great geo and sizing on that bike. If it had a different suspension system I would be on one for sure.
But you started a thread specifically to say you thought the Solo looked like a fun all rounder for the UK?
I hated the Blur XC I rode years ago, and I hate the uk pricing structure - making them a boutique brand on price alone! They look good though.
Blur LTc owner, best bike I had ridden when I got it and thats a long list.
On the geometry - on paper some of the head angles are steep but on the trail it doesn't feel like it, it's possible for a bike to feel different to the static measurements of it.
On VPP, it's very different to a lot of things, I went back to basics when I got mine to re learn how to jump it as the back end feels glued to the floor. It took me a couple of days round rotorua to get the hang of it. On rough trail though the glued to the floor means it feels stable, solid and in control everywhere.
There are a few little things that keep impressing me like sticking with threaded BB's, the frame stiffness and not changing everything every year.
My next bike will probably be another santa cruz.
I've had so much fun on almost all the Santas I've had over the years (and all bought second hand of course).
Loved the Superlight, even though it was an 04/05 frame. Far more capable then a pure XC bike should be.
The Blur XCc, which I have only recently sold, rode like a race horse but the harder I pushed it, the tougher it got. Its new owner called it a 'crotchrocket' (!)
The Blur LT2 I had for a couple of years, and it was a real 'steady Eddy', just totally stable and unphased whatever the terrain - a real confidence inspiring bike that handled everything.
Only the Nickel fell a bit short of expectations. It looked the biz and was lovely and quick, but for reasons I still can't fathom (though rider error certainly comes into it)it managed to throw me OTB more than any other bike I have ridden. It promised but couldn't deliver (or maybe that was me!).
So that's my Santa Cruz history so far. Beautifully built and mega reliable IMO, and normally totally involving to ride.........and right now I'm building up a Blur TR frame with 650b wheels, so we'll have to see where that takes me.
But you started a thread specifically to say you thought the Solo looked like a fun all rounder for the UK?
Wasn't me.
It's such a shame that they bought the VPP patent all those years ago and seem to be stuck with it. If they sacked it off and put a well engineered 4-bar/Horst link or a Weagle single pivot on that Nomad it would probably be the 160mm 650b bike. Well that or a Slash anyway.
It's such a shame that they bought the VPP patent all those years ago and seem to be stuck with it. If they sacked it off and put a well engineered 4-bar/Horst
In your opinion, many other people disagree with you. If you don't like VPP there are many other choices available.
SC are weirdly over expensive here. Buy from the US IMO.
hora - Member
SC are weirdly over expensive here. Buy from the US IMO.
Checked it recently?
Bronson Carbon in XT Spec from the US is $6399, allowing $100 for postage and insurance the following is the calculation for what the bike will cost imported to the UK.
Total customs value: £4062.34Import duty: £609.35
VAT: £934.34
Total import duty & VAT due: £1543.69
Total landed cost: £5606.03 at USD/GBP exchange rate of 1.6
UK RRP is £5699, so a massive saving of £96.
I forgot some people can't frame build.
I'd get a alu 5010 frame - shop around. USA - you can get better than RRP last time I looked. For instance a quick glance (its 4.50am). A 5010 @ 1, 650 $. How much landed if you do it right?
Or just buy here secondhand off all the gear-types..
Personally I wouldnt bother. Euro bikes galore now and great value. SC fill the ££ market end. Imagine buying a new carbon full suss frame and selling it after a year 😯
http://www.dutycalculator.com/new-import-duty-and-tax-calculation/saved_calculations/view_details/189486574/
1375, next time you can look it up 🙂 but a UK bike shop could also discount that if they wanted to to clear stock so not really sure what it proves. RRP on the frame is $1950 so with the same $100 postage it comes out at 1615 UK, so again just over 100 saving if you can get it sent for that.
The pricing is about spot on when compared to the US don't you think?
I forgot some people can't frame build.
Yes you could save a lot of money by building your own frame - that is what you meant wasn't it?
So buy a YT/Commencal etc then. Leave the latest SC to the have silly money crowd.
right glad that's cleared up then, probably best stop shouting that the UK pricing is "weirdly over expensive" then.
It aint ****ing cheap is it. I wonder what US wholesale is. It'll be the same price sold to distributors who then have to buy container space themselves ontop to get the best price landed
Cheap and Value are 2 different things though, you point was that you should by from the US as they are much more expensive in the UK, which it turns out they are not, now they are more expensive than 2 companies offering direct sales.
It's widely known that they are not selling at the cheap end of the market, it's their choice. Plenty of people seem to think they are worth the extra though.
I love my 2010 Blur LTc.
Best bike I've ever had. I ride things I never would before too. Not sure how but it makes my balls bigger.
coolhandluke - Member
I love my 2010 Blur LTc.Best bike I've ever had. I ride things I never would before too. Not sure how but it makes my balls bigger.
It could be your saddle angle wants adjusting?
I had a Heckler which I didn't get on with, finding it a bit flexy when cornering hard etc. Nice apart from that, so no, conclusive proof that they really aren't THAT good.
In your opinion, many other people disagree with you. If you don't like VPP there are many other choices available.
Well the rate graphs don't lie.
65 HA, 340mm BB, 74 SA, 435 RC. Not many choices with that geo actually.
Well the rate graphs don't lie.
They also don't ride bikes.
I bought a Heckler about 6 months ago, best bike I've owned, it's just rapid, although slightly scary because you can just chuck it about like a big BMX. Afan is my local trail centre, and I've yet to see another one, and I ride there a lot. Plus the bike is simple, I've had no problems mechanically, it just works and is very, very good fun.
They also don't ride bikes.
😆
JCL, i find it hard to take anything you say about bikes and how they 'handle' seriously after you diss'd the 26 stumpy evo for being crap. It's really not.
I like a small bike but any SC i've been on have felt very cramped so i can't comment on how they actually ride. They do look good and being an old (and bad) ex-skater i can see the appeal of the brand.
I bought a Heckler about 6 months ago, best bike I've owned, it's just rapid, although slightly scary because you can just chuck it about like a big BMX. Afan is my local trail centre, and I've yet to see another one, and I ride there a lot. Plus the bike is simple, I've had no problems mechanically, it just works and is very, very good fun.
Your not the only one 
I ride there quite a lot on my heckler, up until last week when I bought a new frame.
Heckler was nice and lively, but after sitting on a few different bikes it was too short for me and my back would ache after a while.
the downside now is its taking a little adjustment to get used to a slightly bigger bike!
I wouldn't say SC are stupidly expensive frames, its about the going rate for most of the big companies. (excluding the direct order ones)
Had a test ride on a carbon Tallboy recently and was very disappointed. Riding position was perched on top and over the front and it felt very cramped. Regardless of this I expected it to be nimble and good uphill due to the light carbon frame. It was not, it just felt dull imo.
They must be good cause a lot of the most media savvy riders / coaches [s]get given[/s] own one.
I've had two SC bikes and they've both been really fun to ride - Chameleon and an older Bullit. Probably would've kept the Chameleon if I got a 16" but it was 14" and a bit too small for the kind of riding I wanted to do on it. Great little dirt jumper though! I just wished it wasn't so stiff. The Bullit was awesome, yes it was a bit tall and steep compared to modern geometry but it was just a fun bike to ride. I wish I'd never sold it and got a newer bike tbh, ignorance is bliss.
Went in a specialised concept store today and a carbon enduro frameset is £2800 so about the same as a santa cruz really - why does everyone think they are expensive compared to everything else?
Nice bikes though I don't think they are any better than some of the bigger brand offerings (e.g. a trek or a giant). I think people are attracted by the pseudo-boutique label. Bit like buying a Beemer over a Ford, no better, a bit more expensive, and actually less exclusive!
Went in a specialised concept store today and a carbon enduro frameset is £2800 so about the same as a santa cruz really - why does everyone think they are expensive compared to everything else?
Specialized are very poor value for their frame sets for some reason (probably because they get such good deals on forks and group sets). You can probably buy a bike with that frame set for not much more cash. Always seems to work out cheaper to buy a bike and flog the bits you don't want.
Mrblobby !!
That's a classic statement. I love the concept that people would by a Ford over a BMW !!
Put down that crack pipe son.
Skiboy, don't understand your comment.
It is a good example of the power of brand preference. For example, doesn't matter how good they are it's very unlikely I'd buy a Specialized, no real rational reason behind that though and their bikes are clearly top notch and win at the highest levels of the sport.
Mrblobby fair point they did have a carbon enduro 29er with £1k off which at £3.5k looked a great bike at the right price (but no CCDB shock)
You are talking bobbins about ford vs bmw though-Bm is a much better car
Wasn't me
Errrrr
Oh yeah LOL. I think I was trying to wind up the 26" for life crew more than anything.
JCL, i find it hard to take anything you say about bikes and how they 'handle' seriously after you diss'd the 26 stumpy evo for being crap. It's really not.
I had one for a season. Isn't slack enough and the rear centre is far to short.
Anyway to go back to the original question I think SC bikes really are that good and it's up to you if you think they are the right money or not. I have had four: a chameleon,; bullit.2; v10 mark 3; nomad. 2 aluminium and the latest nomad 650b.
I have been over the bars on all of them and two of them required hospitalisation (so far!) so you definitely CAN fall off them-but then again I also fell off my demo, norco, commencal and epic.
The new nomad has the best geometry of all of them and I realise now the older gen ones were too short-but this is the best bike I have ever had and after 3 weeks in the Alps and riding round a bit in the UK I know I don't need a dh bike and an xc bike, I can just have this.
As long as the kids have got shoes and the mortgage gets paid, get one!
Socking paint job on my current Blur LT, other than that it's a great bike.
Just got back from the States, where I reckon 50% of the bikes I saw were SC, certainly not boutique there.
You are talking bobbins about ford vs bmw though-Bm is a much better car
Most probably one for another thread! Though it is a question of your criteria for evaluation and whether you are comparing like for like too (e.g no question that a top of the range 5 series is better than a mid range mondeo, but then that's not a fair comparison.)
Anyway I'm sure they are excellent bikes (love my old Alu Blur XC, best all round bike I've owned even if it did eat pivot bearings, and I'd have a Highball too if anyone offered.) Doubt they are any better than the top end big brand offerings though. Though if you are spending thousands on a bike I can see why you'd not want to end up with, say, a Trek. Bit like buying that Audi super car thing, at the end of the day you'd be driving an Audi when you could be driving maybe a Ferrari, even though it may actually be a better car.
I enjoy JCL's posts, he/they remind me of the guy we bumped into this summer in the the woods who was not having a good ride as he had the wrong compound tires on...
Are they any SC dealers in France?
They're very good bikes, but no better or worse than any other decent bike out there. There are three SC owners amongst my regular riding mates - a Bronson, Heckler and Nomad. Two of the riders are better than I, but were on their previous non SC bikes, and no better'er on their SC's than me than when they rode their previous steeds. Very nice bikes, but there are loads of very nice bikes out there.
Can't speak for the bouncers but my chameleon is the most fun bike I've owned in my 40 years. But then it suits my needs very well. I like mucking about and mainly ride street and short off road trails plus skate and pump track, and nothing has been as good as the cammy for this. Bought second hand pretty cheap so didn't part with silly money and the frame is that solid I've no worries about its past history. It's as light as any of the skinny steel singlespeeds I've owned and manuals better than my bmx... I love it 🙂
Do people not find the are bikes made by manufacturer X any good a bit too vague to answer with any worth?
Most manufacturers have made good and bad bikes over the years.
Still it's mildly entertaining to see all the fanbois and haters getting into geo arguments over such a daft question. 🙂
I enjoy JCL's posts, he/they remind me of the guy we bumped into this summer in the the woods who was not having a good ride as he had the wrong compound tires on...
A bit like that mixed with some die hard evangelist. You will pry my stumpjumper 29'er from my cold dead hands! Oh and the 26" version is the worst bike ever 😆
haters getting into geo arguments over such a daft question.
What is more entertaining is hearing people assert that bike A must definitely be better than bike B because they've posted faster Strava times on it 😆
I have had loads of top end bikes over the years, the worst was the Mojo HD130, utterly shit hateful bike. Best probably the Bronson I had before my Newmad. Don't get me wrong the Newmad is a mega bike but it needs a hell of a lot of rider input to get the best out of it. I have a Solo CC as well now so I can have the best of both worlds.
If I did it again I'd probably buy a Capra.
In my opinion they are good (very very good!).
However, the cost of new ones is getting quite silly though. Whether they are 'that good' to warrant the price other similar bikes is certainly questionable!
A bit like that mixed with some die hard evangelist. You will pry my stumpjumper 29'er from my cold dead hands! Oh and the 26" version is the worst bike ever
Not the worst ever as the suspension is great but it's nothing on the 29".
Like Porter I'm just fighting against mediocrity and marketing. You have no idea the kind of responsibility guys like us face.
Though if you are spending thousands on a bike I can see why you'd not want to end up with, say, a Trek. Bit like buying that Audi super car thing, at the end of the day you'd be driving an Audi when you could be driving maybe a Ferrari, even though it may actually be a better car.
No hope for me, I've had 3 successive expensive Treks, and my dream car is an Audi R8 😳
deadkenny - Member
Well built, well designed, reliable, robust, easy to maintain, great support & warranty and look fantastic. There's a reason why they are popular and the frames are expensive. You get what you pay for.
I really liked my sc frames but easy to maintain and robust are two things I wouldn't agree with.
Top shock bushing needed replacing every 500 miles or so and the bottom four bearings with funny sized inner sleeves that could only be sourced from sc needed done every year or about 1500 miles at about £10 a bearing in a kit. To change the top link bearings needed Allan keys cut down and custom made pullers or sc sourced tools at very high prices.
Think things are better now but too far out my price range these days
The disdain for santa cruz based on their price / value seems a bit odd to me. If you spend 2-3k on a 'mainstream' brand and don't like it, then spending 4-6k on a santa cruz (if you do like it) is better value, surely. If you can't tell any difference or just plain prefer the mainstream brand, then sure, the SC will appear massively overpriced - but it's just preference.
For example, I don't like single pivot bikes. That's the oranges' and the SC heckler. It doesn't bother me that others do prefer them to horst/4-bar/VPP/whatever, it's just preference. If you get on with it, buy it, ride the shit out of it and let that be the end of the discussion.
Personally, I've got a SC 5010 & a bronson. Why? Because I like them both and got on with them both. I tried a norco sight, liked that too, but not as much. Didn't like anything in specializeds' range, never found a trek I got on with and didn't again this time - basically they were the best for me that I found.
Now, I slung my leg over a yeti SB6c two days ago - that's the first time I've found one I think could be better (again, for me) - but I'm buggered if I'm being an early adopter on that. Clearances look interesting to say the least for mud. Rides like the proverbial off a shovel though.
The one thing I would say though is that SC build quality is generally awesome. The finish is superb & hard wearing. I saw one quote about screwing directly into carbon, but both my bronson screws into alu which is bonded, so I don't think that's an issue (and my 5010 is just alu). I don't know if quality issues are something which affected only older kit or if I've just got lucky so far.
In a word ... Yes.
The irksome thing with SC pricing is how much they are here compared to the US. An S-Works, or top end Trek is about the same, but we get screwed over for SC!
I just think they're in a position with the brand where if you want a SC it doesn't matter if the frame is two grand or two and a half, you're still going to buy it, and that position is being suitably exploited as any good business would!
Although the highball aluminium is a bit of a bargain, and rides better than many carbon frames, a bit like the cannondale caad10 frames for road bikes.
I have two SC bikes and they take loads of abuse and still ride great.
Probably won't go to SC again though given they've gone 650b/27; I'll get a 26 frame
Saw some lovely 650 SC's over Surrey Hills Saturday, they look fit for purpose 🙂 I test rode a Blur LT many years ago and didn't get on with it, in hindsight it probably just wasn't set up right for me.
If I was buying a full susser again it would be between a 5010 and a 5. When specced out similarly with reverbs etc there is less than £150 difference, both around £3800. I had a 5 and loved it. Would the 5010 be any 'better' I wonder.
A notoriously picky friend of mine bought a Tallboy and amazingly , his only complaint is 'it's a pain to clean'.
High praise from him.
A notoriously picky friend of mine bought a Tallboy and amazingly , his only complaint is 'it's a pain to clean'.
High praise from him.
Blimey well that's me sold 🙂