[Closed] Same spec bikes more expensive in the UK?

It won't be the UK distributors making the extra cash, lots of people having their slice - shipping companies, HMRC, the manufacturer.

But yes, it's shit.

Book a flight to US, having reserved bike beforehand.
Ride, ensure it is covered in mud, pack in new bike box, apply some stickers.
Fly home.
Pocket £1k.

Simples.

There's £700+ of VAT for starters, plus shipping, plus duty, plus exchange rate losses / risk management.

Don't forget that price will be nett of sales taxes, whereas UK pricing includes them. You'll also have arse covering if it's a USA firm to avoid currency fluctuations & the additional cost of overseas services like warranties - if they have to price a bike for a model year and the pound goes up by 10 cents it would make a big difference to margins.

In 2004 the ASR-SL was $1800 and £1300. We never worked that out particularly as every other US made bike followed the $=£ route.

It's because the UK ones are to be ridden on the left of the road.
Most countries ride on the right so more of these are made, hence cheaper.

Yes I'm joking!

Don't forget import duty

They will charge whatever a market will pay, wouldn't you?

Or the likes of Giant and Specialized are importing 1000's of bikes and can therefore take advantage of that scale where as the number of Yeti's imported must be a fraction of that.

As pointed out above most people miss the 20% VAT on Uk stuff vs the fact that nowhere in the US tells you what the sales tax is until you get to the till.

you want to buy your new bike in Delaware, New Hampshire, Montana or Oregon....

http://www.salestaxinstitute.com/resources/rates

I was shocked at the price of Santa Cruz frames in the US, considerately cheaper in $'s than £'s,
In fact when I looked you could get a complete SC bike over there for less than the frame price here..

£3500 + 15% import duty + 20% VAT = £4830

[url= http://www.economist.com/content/big-mac-index ]Burgernomics[/url] suggests the Ukraine is the place to buy stuff.

£3500 + 15% import duty + 20% VAT = £4830

BUT..... £3500 is not the cost price for the retailer. £3500 is the US retail price.

Obviously the number of wholesalers/importers involved effects things but IF a UK retailer were simply buying product at US retail prices and importing them then it would be a particularly daft business plan.

You would expect at least a 30-50% margin in the factory gate price to US retail which would also be there for the importer.

I dont believe there's any one link in the supply chain that is "profiteering" I just expect that the supply chain is so convoluted from manufacturers, wholesalers, importers, retailers, the tax and duty and certification and warranty and SOG obligations so onerous that UK retail is not alwyas the best method of acquiring a US bike.

If it suits you (and by no means will it always do so) to arrange your own importing, tax and duty if necessary, latent defect risk, PDI checking etc etc then there's a lot of savings to be made bypassing the UK retail route.

Obviously the number of wholesalers/importers involved effects things but IF a UK retailer were simply buying product at US retail prices and importing them then it would be a particularly daft business plan.

I'm not suggesting that's what's happening - that'd be silly. All I'm pointing out is that to bring a bike from the States you have to add on duty and VAT, and that's before you get to extra shipping costs and other things.

I import some things from the States - the supply chain is the same (manufacturer > retailer > customer) but I find once you add on the taxes, shipping, transaction charges etc then the effective exchange rate is pretty much $1=£1.

If

the supply chain is the same (manufacturer > retailer > customer)

the effective exchange rate is pretty much $1=£1.

as there is a 66% margin there.

Duty (4.5% x 120% VAT = 5.4%)
VAT (20%)
Shipping (let's say $50 a bike in bulk, so 2% ish)

only gets you to c.30% of that difference. The other 30% is getting lost somewhere and it's not clear where.

The other 30% is getting lost somewhere and it's not clear where.

30% gross margin then for a distributor?

Out of which they have to pay all of their normal business operating costs, run a demo fleet, UK marketing, PR, sponsored riders, carry a lot of warranty stock (well, we are using Yeti as an example), goodwill, etc etc.

For the things I import, it's mostly down to shipping, but that's because I import one-off things which means expensive air freight.

As butterbean says, for more mainstream* things then there's the extra costs of supporting the brand in the UK.

*Not that a £5000 bike is mainstream 😉

It’s not just isolated to the UK, in fact it’s worse in some other European countries. A Dutch colleague found it cheaper to get the ferry over to the UK to buy a Bronson recently than buy it locally; the same bike from a Dutch shop was €600ish more expensive.

30% gross margin then for a distributor?

un a demo fleet, UK marketing, PR, sponsored riders, carry a lot of warranty stock

The supply chain is extended for UK retail purchasers and the extension carries a cost. However, there are "arbitrage" opportunities for canny UK buyers who are willing to take a risk on warranty/latent defects/after sales support etc if they can make a US Retail price to UK delivered beat a UK retail price sufficiently to compensate for not having UK support.

I think most people feel that that extra 30% is sometimes a bit too much, hence why private import can work.

Wouldn't the US branch of Yeti also do marketing, PR, sponsored rides as well though in that £3500? I would expect that the cost to the importer is less than £3500 otherwise we would be paying for US and UK marketing!

I would suggest that those who feel there is profiteering going on get themselves into the game and import some bikes for sale.....

I was looking at a US cycling mag and a Boardman road bike £3199 in the UK was £2870 (pre sales tax) over there. I guess that they have to compete in what is effectively a larger and more competitive market and take a margin hit compared to the UK.

30% gross margin then for a distributor?

Out of which they have to pay all of their normal business operating costs, run a demo fleet, UK marketing, PR, sponsored riders, carry a lot of warranty stock (well, we are using Yeti as an example), goodwill, etc etc.

Wouldn't the US branch of Yeti also do marketing, PR, sponsored rides as well though in that £3500? I would expect that the cost to the importer is less than £3500 otherwise we would be paying for US and UK marketing!

I'm not in the market for a £5k bike so it's no skin of Yeti's nose if I don't agree with their pricing, but when you can fly to the USA, buy the bike, DECLARE IT TO HMRC AND PAY TAX, and still be better off, you've got to question what is the importer actualy doing that makes them so much less efficient than their US counterparts.

I'm not saying they're profiteering and driving arround in a new McLaren, but they do appear to be hugely inefficient if that's their margin!

I was looking at a US cycling mag and a Boardman road bike £3199 in the UK was £2870 (pre sales tax) over there. I guess that they have to compete in what is effectively a larger and more competitive market and take a margin hit compared to the UK.

Simply put, you're displaying a lack of understanding of how the distribution model works in the bike trade (whether that be right or wrong).

The Global Brand is responsible for global marketing, sponsorship, PR, brand awareness etc, the regional distribution point is responsible for all of that in their domestic market, and thus the associated costs.

A lot of these US bike companies deal direct with US retailers.
So abroad there is an extra company in the chain (the distributor).

Put the margin in for the distributor and then multiply that by the shop margin and it's not surprising that it works out dearer.
It's hard to see how they could effectively do it differently.

Some companies try harder on the price, but the result is reduced presence at retail as margins are tighter.

I was looking at a US cycling mag and a Boardman road bike £3199 in the UK was £2870 (pre sales tax) over there. I guess that they have to compete in what is effectively a larger and more competitive market and take a margin hit compared to the UK.

In your example the UK bike is only £2665 before tax, so actualy its cheaper here.

OK at the till around £3050 in the US and £2870 in the UK (sales tax isn't shown on prices in the US). Given that the Boardman has to be imported to the US and our high value (ish) pound the bike is cheaper in the US and Boardman is on a reduced margin.

Late to the party but I'll throw in my tuppence (3cents) worth any how...

I'm in fmcg so not bikes but assuming a similar level of margin etc...

A bike retails for say $2000 plus tax. The retailer deals direct with the manufacturer and works to a minimum margin of 100% so trade price is sub $1000.

A UK distributor buys from the manufacturer for the same price, assume a $50 per bike shipping charge, duty payable at 4.5% for example.

($1000 + 50) * 1.045 = 1100 ish.

Margin for wholesale price list 200%,
1100 * 3 = $3300 wholesale list price.

Exchange rate, pre buy my dollars, 1.55

$3300/1.55 = £2130

Retailer discount 50 to 60% dependent on volume from this price.

£2130 * 0.5 = £1065 ($550 or £355 profit at wholesale)

Mark up to retail 100%

1065 * 2 = £2130

Vat @20%

2130*1.2 = £2555 advertised price

Us sales $2000 + tax, UK £2555 Inc

OK at the till around £3050 in the US and £2870 in the UK (sales tax isn't shown on prices in the US). Given that the Boardman has to be imported to the US and our high value (ish) pound the bike is cheaper in the US and Boardman is on a reduced margin.

You missed a comma then, you meant to say [i]
"I was looking at a US cycling mag and a Boardman road bike £3199, in the UK was £2870 "[/i] , otherwise it reads the other way round to me.

The Global Brand is responsible for global marketing, sponsorship, PR, brand awareness etc, the regional distribution point is responsible for all of that in their domestic market, and thus the associated costs.

So if Yeti's USA price is pre-tax (guestimates for illustration only, bike may actualy be 50p and distributor costs may be £1999.50)
£1500 - Design, build and import bike from China
£500 - Yeti USA overheads and profit
£500 - Global Marketing by Yeti USA
£500 - Domestic USA Marketing by Yeti USA
£500 - Shops margin
£TAX
=about £4000

So Yeti's UK price is (pre tax):
£1500 - Design, build and import bike from China
£250 - Yeti USA overhead and profit (because they're not doing much for this, they probably never see the bike)
£250 - UK distributor overheads and profit (because they've got less to do than yeti USA, no dealing with factories)
£500 - Global Marketing by Yeti USA
£500 - Domestic UK Marketing by Importer
£500 - Shops margin
=about£4.3k because theres more tax in the UK
£900 black hole

My point is, between them the UK distributor and yeti USA do no more work than yeti USA manages on its own in the USA.

I'm not saying they're profiteering, just appear to be bloomin ineficient and pricing themselves out of the market.

So you pluck a load of figures from nowhere, say they could be anything, but then use the result to support your argument :confused:

No one is pricing themselves out of the market; people buy Yetis because they are Yetis. People want them, in part, because they are expensive and "boutique".

This subject has been done many times before - you're right.

But there is an upside: that price hike leaves space for our indigenous manufacturers to operate in. Think Cotic, On One, Singular, that new Stooge & Bird, (& probably a bunch I missed). Orange maybe.

Would they ever get off the ground if US imports weren't bonkers expensive?

Isn't it great to have so many indigenous brands making great bikes for the UK?

I think some of your numbers are muddled, so it doesn't make a great deal of sense, but using your examples of the UK margins, even with my limited knowledge of smaller brands/distribution models, there is no way a distributor or retail shop is going to be working to margins that small.

If you work to 30% for the retailer, and not far off that for the distributor, you might start to be in the right ballpark. On the face of it, you may think that's high, but you also need to factor in sales volumes too (or lack thereof).

You make the mistake of assuming margin is related to work done, most "middle men" companies make just as much markup regardless of what they do.

In your example:

So Yeti's UK price is (pre tax):
£1500 - Design, build and import bike from China
[s]£250[/s] £500- Yeti USA overhead and profit (because [s]they're not doing much for this, they probably never see the bike[/s] mark up is based on cost of item not cost of labour, that's only accounted for once, in your £1500)
[s]£250[/s] £666 - see above - cost to them is now £2000 so add a third [s]UK distributor overheads and profit (because they've got less to do than yeti USA, no dealing with factories)[/s]
£500 - Global Marketing by Yeti USA
£500 - Domestic UK Marketing by Importer
[s]£500[/s]£611 mark up based on cost 1/6 as above - Shops margin

By your example a BSO of cost £10 would retail for £2010 plus tax because the same work is involved

Margins are higher at that end of the market but it's still based on cost +% not cost + cost

If you work to 30% for the retailer, and not far off that for the distributor, you might start to be in the right ballpark. On the face of it, you may think that's high, but you also need to factor in sales volumes too (or lack thereof).

I was just using them to illustrate the point.

The cost of the global marketing is presumably distributed evenly accross all the bikes built, ditto the R&D budget, which gives the total cost of actualy getting a saleable bike into a shipping container somewhere in china. The cost of getting that to the Yeti-USA or to Silverfish-UK is then similar. Then the retailer at the end in the USA presumably takes a similar margin to any UK LBS.

So the difference is inbetween, what do Silverfish do in the UK that's so expensive, that Yeti-USA doesn't do to justify a £900 margin?

In practice of course the figures you separateout for marketing etc are part of the overheads and profit you mention. They're not accounted individually.

So the difference is inbetween, what do Silverfish do in the UK that's so expensive, that Yeti-USA doesn't do to justify a £900 margin?

Buy from yeti USA, not China.

Distributor direct sales model please.
No retail mark up = better value for consumers. Still get demo days, warranty support, informed tech support etc etc. It's a win-win.
I hope that the likes of YT and Canyon continue to do very well so that companies hands are forced.

But

£1500 design build and import
£500 yeti usa overhead
£500 yeti global marketing
£2500 total = $4100 so the above figures cant be correct as they sell them for $3500 before tax?

Double post

No retail mark up = [s]better value for consumers.[/s]

mass unemployment, deserted high streets, huge tax hikes to pay for the bill, falling wages due to massive over competition for limited work...

So you're happy to keep tesco and their margins (much bigger ones too) but want rid of your LBS because their margins are too high?

What's more acceptable about margins on milk where farmers often don't get cost but supermarkets make big markup or a TV from Currys that's not acceptable about a bike?

So you're happy to keep tesco and their margins (much bigger ones too) but want rid of your LBS because their margins are too high?

For a non retail guy like me then is this correct,

Uk price inc vat = £5200

Uk price exc vat @ 20% = £4350 (is vat 20% on uk bikes?)

£4350 = $7280, which is double what it is in the US

How much is duty and delivery to the Uk = $500 ?

I assume the retailers buy them at roughly the same cost?

so the above figures cant be correct as they sell them for $3500 before tax?

I thought they were £3500 before tax, I'd converted it all into £ first rather than last?

Buy from yeti USA, not China.

So what you're saying is Yeti design, build, globaly market, and make a profit on a bike, which results in a cost of £X per unit before it's distributed.

Yeti then distribute, market, sort warrenties, etc, internaly in the USA and Silverfish do the same in the UK.

What you're saying is Yeti are 'distributing' it to silverfish. Which just seems hugely ineficient, why is there any need for yeti's USA distribution arm to incur costs?

In buying my shopping from a single outlet; I get value in terms of convenience. Do I really need to point out how impractible it would be to buy all of the individual items from the different sources. Due to these reasons, it's a rather daft comparison.

As for distributors arranging demo bikes I'm fairly confident in saying that I've only ever swung my leg over a shop (paid for and maintained by them) demo bike.

Warranty on the bike should be dealt with by the reseller not the distributor as with anything else, I wouldn't ring ford UK about my faulty car, why should I ring Silverfish about my faulty lappiere?

Better product knowledge? My lbs is pretty good for that, some aren't, that is what you're paying for in retail so vote with your feet.

You say a super market adds convenience, any retailer should, that's the point of them, one shop with brake pad, chains, wheels frames etc. Rather than a distributor or factory which doesn't or doesn't offer choice.

Of course the "distributor direct " model such as canyon is great because a lot of it is a retail fronting not a distributor. A distributor proper suits in a warehouse on am industrial estate and would happily sell you 20 sets of brakes four pairs of wheels and so on but one bike /chain what ever isn't in their business model.

The principal aim of retail is the distributor accepts a smaller margin in order to allow the retailer to add one, in return the retailer is supposed to add convenience in terms of small quantities, ready availability, demo models etc and to take on the "hassle " of dealing with Joe public. Not all that value is added for your benefit, some is for the distributor/manufacturer's benefit.

Canyon are of course a manufacturer who have innovated by not following the traditional sales route and by doing so offer very good value to consumers. They seem to be doing very well out of it, have lots of happy customers and sell a good product which (IMHO) is equivalent in quality to any of the major brands.
I hope that they do so well that all manufacturers take this route.
I don't wish death to LBS; there will always be a place for a good one but I don't feel like I owe them a living any more than I do any other type of shop. I want the best possible value and my opinion is that I'd get that from the man's/distri's by not providing mark ups for XXX number of companies.

I'd suspect that the

£1500 design build and import

Also the marketing number sounds way to high too.

distributing' it to silverfish. Which just seems hugely ineficient, why is there any need for yeti's USA distribution arm to incur costs?

Its considerably less efficient for a retailer to buy direct in small quantities. By adding the distributor in the loop you add a level of stock holding your retailer wouldn't be happy with ink order to service warranties etc. Cost for shipping a single bike one at a time over the Atlantic is high bs. Low for 100 bikes at a time. Paying Silverfish is done in gbp and is cheap, every transaction you do in foreign currency costs you (£50 to receive a payment in us dollars to my business account, 65 to make one) I have a forex account for euro to get away from that but as a result I have to pre buy and hehe my euros at a lower rate, it's fine for bigger sums of money 50-60k a month, but much smaller like a retailer will deal with on a now and then basis is not viable.

Importing from outside the EU for a company is costly and time consuming where as for you and I as individuals is relatively cheap and easy.

The "value add" is for the retailer first and you second. You get a warranty with your bike that the retailer is obliged by law to offer in some form, they wouldn't be able to do that without silverfish or who ever being able to back it up, despite the costs then deal with it in bulk as the cost of any one warranty claim would wipe out the profit. They save on a lot of hassle and incidental costs which they would have to pass on to you.

From the distributors point of view they get (supposedly) a knowledgeable and easily accessible distribution base which insulates them from the end user and the inevitable hassle that comes with them.

You should get a local accessible and friendly service from a retailer coupled with the backup and reduced costs of bulk buying the retailer gets from the distributor.

One retailer buying direct from yeti would be much more expensive to you.

You can of course go direct to the USA, not incur the banking costs (personal banking is cheap here) pay your own duty and VAT, accept the risk of carriage (cmr pays about 8.50 per KG, not much on a bike that cost 3k) and get no warranty.

It's all settings and roundabouts, you may think the risk worth the saving, a lot of ATGNI wouldn't, they need the backup.

Don't bike shops in the US buy directly from Yeti?

tonyg2003 - Member
I'd suspect that the

£1500 design build and import

is way over the top. I have a friend that owns a bike brand and they pay nothing like that for their carbon frames.

Canyon are of course a manufacturer who have innovated by not following the traditional sales route and by doing so offer very good value to consumers. They seem to be doing very well out of it, have lots of happy customers and sell a good product which (IMHO) is equivalent in quality to any of the major brands.
I hope that they do so well that all manufacturers take this route.

The factory direct model works in some ways but there is a big difference between price and value.

As for Canyon/YT etc. Can you demo a bike? See all the threads about the new Capra where people have ordered and have no idea which size they should have ordered.

What surprises me about the YT/Canyon model is that even by taking pre-orders months in advance, they still aren't flexible enough to make more of the models that sell and less of the ones that dont. Even with the same frames.

find the restrictive selling policies of some bike mnfrs not at all in the customer interest and very much in the interest of maintaining brand pricing - it seems pretty obvious from the way in which some products are advertised that retailers can only offer deals which don't have much actual impact on the retail sales price eg free extras
or like for like "factory sales"

bit grumpier than usual as live in Melbourne Aus' - local bike shop is a specialized retailer and I wanted two specific specialized items - a seat post and some leg warmers with zips, as usual no stock - seat post "about 10-14days" couldn't get the legwarmers not listed

back home was ordering a gore jacket from a UK retailer to directly replace one I'd lost (no local shop stocks gore - think nobody else rides in the rain) went to add the seatpost and the legwarmers to the order only to get the message "can't ship products from this manufacturer outside the EU"

grrrrrrrrrr......