[Closed] Saddle too high? Medial knee pain, with pictures on bike...

Cruciate ligament damage popped into my head - it's a fairly common sporting thing isn't it?

Seat looks to high so your leg is fully extended and when you put the extra effort in on the hills your doing the damage, try lowering the seat so when the pedal is at the bottom you still have some bend in the knee and not fully locked out.

The bike may be too small. Although you may be the right height, your legs are 1" longer than mine depsite me being taller than you. I ride an XL. TBH my big problem with knee pain turned out to be cleat position. I had to try around for quite a while to get it right. If it's medial knee pain then the cleats may be postitioned too far to the outside of your shoe. Try moving them around to see if it makes any difference.

The thing with getting the pedal behind the knee line is only applicable to a small number of riders. What's more important is the angle at which the knee and leg sit at the top of the stroke as too much or too little will apply too much anterior or posterior force on the knee joint and affect your menisci.

Speedstar I ride superstar flats, how would that translate to flats? I tried an XL Heckler and the toptube was a bit close for comfort LOL

Jaggedblade thanks, my riding partner usually says my leg doesnt look straight enough so its good to get some outside perspective.

Yorlin wouldnt I be in pain all the time though? Once off the bike I can run, walk, stair climb without issue. When back on bike a few days later its fine, until I tackle the first hill and that sets it off.

That was going to be my first point, but to me it looks like you are running plain flats which should pretty much rule out all pedal/seat height (too high at least) causes...
Are you a spinner or a gurner?
Maybe try pushing lower gears at higher cadence and see if that helps...

I do have a pair of AM41's which stick like glue to the Superstars, so my feet really don't move much once in position, would this be akin to riding cleats with no float?

Haha gurner. Never heard that one before.

Yeah I think if your feet aren't able to move a bit laterally then it will put extra pressure through your knees that will hurt unless you get it at an improbably perfect postion. I also think if you are not spinning in a low enough gear that will do the same thing as being in a poor position. what kind of pedalling do you do?

that bike is too small for you.

Also I can see on your left at least that your knee is actually in front of the pedal quite a bit. The middle of the pedal should bisect through the back of the knee, if you go by what I said might not be right a while ago. Although this is a rule of thumb, my feeling is the bike is a tad too small for you and even though you can elevate the seatpost to make the bottom of the pedal stroke an appropriate length, you are having to push forward through the top of the stroke instead of more of an arc, which as I said earlier, puts pressure on all the cushioning elements within the knee joint.

Bike is potentially too small for you. Try putting the saddle back on its rails, failing that try a layback seat post, so that you're not having to bend your knee as much. The bend in your knee will be putting more pressure onto your femur via your knee cap and causing pain there. The medial knee pain might be related.

Can't comment on the height of your saddle but I've had medial ligament trouble for a few months, however, i had no pain whilst cycling. Went to a Physio who recommended strengthening my quads. She also insisted that I stretch my quads, to hold the stretch for a minute and do them 3 times a days. After 2 weeks I had no pain.

Are you a spinner or a gurner?

What exactly are you referring to?! I would hazard a guess that i'm very much a gurner! Please explain and enlighten an old man...

Lerk/speedstar I was a gurner, particularly on sections where you can get some speed up, big chain ring grinding! but since this started i've been using high cadence, to try and take all pressure away from the knee caps.

nick i've had the bike since 2007, and never had a problem, so i'm stumped as to why its suddenly come on, and only aggravated by hills. Since i've never paid attention to saddle height though, thought that would be the best place to start.

"Also I can see on your left at least that your knee is actually in front of the pedal quite a bit. The middle of the pedal should bisect through the back of the knee, if you go by what I said might not be right a while ago. Although this is a rule of thumb," when i did the plum on string check, it said to have cranks horizontal, when they are horizontal the knee is directly over the axle.

glupton, i like the idea of a layback seatpost, if they can take pressure off the knee, what are they usually used for?

Gazza, what kind of qaud stretches do you do, just the foot to ass, and hold whilst balancing on the other leg one?

Also I lowered the seatpost around 2 inches before, how does this look in comparison?

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I wouldn't have thought you'd get this kind of pain if your saddle is too high, I think you'd notice elsewhere first. Do your hips rock from side to side when you pedal? If they do then your saddle is too high.

How old are you? My first guess (and it is just that) would be that you're driving to high a gear and perhaps your knees just can't take that kind of strain any more 🙂

My knees are OK but not great, I sometimes get pain when overgearing and it eases off when I spin a little more.

I'm not an expert, but the bike looks too small to me and your riding position appears cramped. I am 5'11" and ride a large Superlight - I know it's not the same bike but I believe the sizing is similar/nearly the same, and I definitely wouldn't want it any smaller.

EDIT - don't know if this would be relevant to your problem, simply an observation (which may well be wrong!).

Hope you sort it out.

First thought from the photo of just the bike is that the seat is too high for the frame. The frame is too small for you or you have the seat too high. Your freakishly long legs may warrant the seat height but from the photos of you on the bike, it looks like two things to my eye. The frame is too small and the seat is way too high.

I just went out to the shed and measured my bike. I'm 6'4" with a 33" inside leg. My pedal to seat height measures 32". For you to reach the pedals at 37", even with you pointing your toes, your hips are rocking. To demonstrate how much your hips will rock, stand, raise one heal by 2" and keep that leg straight, knee locked. Now put your weight on to the other leg that has the heal on the floor. See how much hips have rocked and almost instantly how the inside of your knee starts to hurt. Now the opposite. Raise one heal by 2", put a decent bent in that knee. Now take your weight on the bent leg. There shouldn't be any pain.

Another thing to think about is your foot position on the pedals. You say your feet don't move due to the grippy shoes and pedals? This can as bad as incorrect cleat position on clipless pedals. Are you riding with your heals out to avoid heal rub on the chain stays? Try moving the balls of your feet out slightly and pulling your heals in.

First up drop that seat by 2" to 3".

Yeah fair enough re the cranks but I think as most folk are observing, you look a mite cramped in the cockpit. Thing is I also ride a Heckler and as I said above, you have longer legs than I do and therefore I can't believe you need a smaller frame than me. It may be that you have been pushing hard on the ups to have some more fun on the down with it being more flickable etc but it may be taking a toll on your knees. Strengthening your quads is a great idea for knee pain and may help but I would also suggest trying a larger frame to see if it helps. The fact it's only coming on after a while and on climbs suggests it is definitely a bike fit issue whatever it is.

Your knee makes an angle of about 20 degrees off the vertical when the pedal is at the lowest point. It should really be about 25-30 degrees, suggesting that your saddle is about an inch too high. It's hard to get fore and aft from the photos because I like to see if kneecap is over the spindle with pedals horizontal. The reach looks a little small, but that really won't affect the knee pain. Move the saddle down 2cm and foreward 0.5 cm at a time and see how that feels.

Cruzcampo: ye, but technique is important. I was told pull on my ankle and push the respective hip forward slightly (right leg and right hip). You can feel it stretching the muscle but obviously don't go too far.

why not see a bike fit specialist who can take you through everything, also speak with a doctor/physio.

I wouldnt dream of trying to get a bad knee treated by internet forum

tonyd - when I climb and it gets steep it does feel more like a step machine than a smooth cadence. I'm in my early 30's so hope the knees aren't on the way out yet 😆

mokl - whats your leg measurement? I've always fancied a Superlight, although since Santa Cruz have brought so many new bikes out I don't know where i'd begin to look for a new frame model.

bigblackshed - very helpful cheers!!! "your hips are rocking. To demonstrate how much your hips will rock, stand, raise one heal by 2" and keep that leg straight, knee locked. Now put your weight on to the other leg that has the heal on the floor. See how much hips have rocked and almost instantly how the inside of your knee starts to hurt." I've just felt a twinge in that spot doing this 😯 Think this confirms my saddle is drastically too high ❗ Doing the bent knee varient its fine.

"I'm 6'4" with a 33" inside leg. My pedal to seat height measures 32"" so that goes totally against all the 109% of inseam pedal to seat, and 88.3% of inseam bottom bracket to seat, saddle height advice, but makes more sense to avoid hip rock.

I ride with toes pointing out very slightly if I let my feet naturally sit.

glupton, i like the idea of a layback seatpost, if they can take pressure off the knee, what are they usually used for?

They are usually used to get your arse further away from the stem when you've bought a bike that's too small for you and is giving you knee problems. 😉

speedstar - have you got a pic of you on the heckler, similar angle, so I can see what kind of space it gives?

Tired - thanks, more confirmation its too high, i'm definitely going to lower. moving it forward won't that have the reverse effect of getting a layback seatpost as suggested above to take pressure off knee?

gazza - cheers for stretch tip!

Sancho - I have a lot of faith in the advice of STW'ers, more so than my doctor, thats for sure. Usual fob off, is "don't so activity for x number of weeks and take these drugs" Physio, bike fitting will be my next step if I can't fix it with simple saddle tweaks.

Moving further back to make a biek fit is a poor strategy. It also puts more strain on the outer ligaments if you don't lower the saddle (been there have the injury). Knee over pedal is a good neutral starting point. But at the moment you are too high and are over-extending.

The bike looks too small, but a longer stem, not a setback seatpost is the correct option. Whether handling is adversely affected, only you can decide. But get the saddle position right first.

Evening guys,

A new frame isn't going to be in the budget for a while, so going to start off by trying a setback/layback seatpost, any thoughts on the Thomson elite setback?

http://www.wiggle.co.uk/thomson-elite-setback-seat-post/

Got to say I agree with the others, frame way to small, the saddle height didn't look to bad, but its going to be hard for you to make a frame too small fit. I made the same mistake with my first santa cruz.... 🙁

Where would an XL Heckler give extra length, on the top tube? hence putting me further away from the handle bars (if I kept my other components for example)

You will not solve this problem online. Sancho is right unfortunately. Too many variables, too many likely causes and too many possible solutions. A few static photos gives some rough data but is nothing compared to how your joints behave dynamically for a start.

See someone who can spend time with you getting this right. I hasten to use the term bike fit as it seems to be a bit of a dirty word around here. But a bike fit is your best bet as already mentioned.

That said, there are some obvious things that look off in the photos. Biggest problem is the top tube length on your current frame looks way too short= far too small frame. You are pretty much sat upright which is never going to be an efficient riding position. That doesn't necessarily directly relate to the knee pain but without changing the frame all seatpost faffing will most likely be in vein. A compromised saddle to crank/ pedal relationship just to balance out other factors is not a substitute for a correctly fitting frame.

My only other advice besides don't put your faith in an internet solution and most likely get a bigger frame, would be to pretty much disregard all "rules of thumb" you might have read about getting correct saddle height/ fore and aft/ using plumb lines/ etc. These are rough guidelines based upon what is statistically most likely to fit an "average" rider. If you ever see the data that goes in to creating such things you will see very few (if any) people actually fit this "average" profile. Ride magazine in Oz did an interesting feature too which took detailed measurements of various roadie Pros and their bikes and the variation in bike fits against these so called "rules" of fitting was staggering. That isn't to say all have optimised positions but they certainly aren't struggling either. As I said, they are guidelines to give a starting point from where more detailed and meaningful adjustments can be made.

Long and short of it- get a bike fit from someone with a good reputation who can take the proper time to explore the bike/ knee issues you have. Knee pain is never fun but it will get sorted and it will feel like a revelation when it is sorted 😀 Stick at it! 😀

Agree with all others - frame too small (I'm 5'11" on a large)
Also agree with cleat position issue - I have one pair of shoes I never get knee problems with and 2 others I always do and very painful after 2 hours or so - despite matching the cleat positions - I can never solve with the other shoes.

Are you sure your legs are actually exactly the same length?

if ever a man needed a 29er

Biggest problem is the top tube length on your current frame looks way too short= far too small frame. You are pretty much sat upright which is never going to be an efficient riding position.

Serious question: Why is sitting almost upright an inefficient riding position?

Are you sure your legs are actually exactly the same length?

that was my first thought - left leg looks edit - shorter!

But go & see someone that can really help.

[i]Serious question: Why is sitting almost upright an inefficient riding [/i]

Afaik it isn't.

Interesting to read that you've gone from a slow cadence to a faster one up hills. Why did you change?

I had pain in exactly the same place, diagnosed as a torn medial meniscus, which i was told can either repair itelf or may if physio did not work, require a small op.

I was given a series of knee strengthening and stretching exercises and thankfully after a month (and just riding road bike for which i've had a fitting) it went.

Personally i feel that riding with your saddle low would make it worse as you tend to splay your legs outwards then and put stress on that side of the knee.

I don't think the way forwards is to "spend" your way out, with new frame etc, you would be better spening the money on a good physio that understands cyclists and who can cure the actual physical injury, not buy a new bike and hope your knee gets better.

I've been having similar issues.

In the first set of pics your saddle height looks about right, maybe slightly too low. In the second pics the saddle is way too low.

As suggested above, moving the saddle back on the rails would be a good move for general bike fit. But I don't think you need a new bike.

Other things that have helped me:
-Peddling from the glutes, i.e. engaging bum muscles when peddling
-Keeping heel down when at the bottom of the pedal stroke
-Specialized Bodyfit footbeds that "fill out" my slightly flat foot.
-Stretching quads.

There was an excellent article I read a few years ago about seat height and how the professionals did it. The bottom line is that you want top of saddle to top of pedal to be around 107% of inside leg measurement.

The easiest way to achieve this is to sit on the saddle and put your heel on the pedal, keeping your hips level. At the bottom of the stroke your leg should be just about locked out.

I agree with the comments about the frame being too small for you, so if the budget does not stretch to a change, a layback seatpost would help. A vertical line from the pedal axle when the crank is horizontal should be just on the front of the kneecap, not the back as someone said

I am very careful about my whole riding position as I have serious ligament damage in my right knee so need to protect it as much as I can

A vertical line from the pedal axle when the crank is horizontal should be just on the front of the kneecap, not the back as someone said

It can be wherever works for you.

[i]Serious question: Why is sitting almost upright an inefficient riding[/i]

Afaik it isn't.

Different muscles become more or less active through different ranges of motion. If you are asking smaller weaker muscles to do a lot of the work they will fatigue quickly and the soft tissues in the area may get damaged with overuse. Likewise neighboring joints may have to do more/ less work to compensate for a joint doing its less than optimal proportion of work. Think about the difference in sitting bolt upright (pelvis tilted pretty much the same as standing) and pedaling and then tilting the pelvis forwards perhaps 30 degrees with the upper body around 40-45 degrees to the horizontal and pedaling. The range of motion at the hip (femur relative to pelvis) is very different in each case and will recruit different muscles and likely have knock on effect down to the knee and ankle and up to the back.

Peddling from the glutes, i.e. engaging bum muscles when peddling

I am less sure on the specifics for cycling but would imagine that you will struggle to engage the glutes for example with such an upright position. Maybe a physio can add some information here.

Keeping heel down when at the bottom of the pedal stroke

I think this is the opposite of what a physio/ bike fitter would suggest. You are kind of saying you don't want the gatrocs (calves) to do too much work keeping the heel down. While it might reduced knee pain (gastocs attach behind the knee and are passive flexors of the knee if you like) taking them out of the equation means the knee and hip have to do a bit more work. There are mixed view on this (see mid foot cleat positions). Again maybe a physio can give their thoughts.

As suggested above, moving the saddle back on the rails would be a good move for general bike fit. But I don't think you need a new bike.

I would agree that the saddle is quite far forwards. Whether or not a layback post (the Thomson suggested by the OP is only around 15-16mm by the way)can compensate for the too small frame is the question. It might be good to try it initially.

I would be very wary of following the "rules" CaptainMainwaring suggests as they are only a rough guide to give a starting point on fit as I have already said.

I don't think the way forwards is to "spend" your way out, with new frame etc, you would be better spending the money on a good physio that understands cyclists and who can cure the actual physical injury, not buy a new bike and hope your knee gets better.

You kind of need both. No point having a bike fit with a dodgy knee but equally no point fixing the knee and aggravating it again with a poor fit on the bike. I would be looking to see a decent physio ASAP to take care of the knee side of things and let them help you with any imbalances you might have and check there might not be some underlying pathology. After that focus on the bike and the fit. It needn't cost a lot of money to try a larger frame. A second hand hardtail frame might not be the glamorous option but for £100 or so it would give you and the bike fitter a better platform to work with in trying to get comfortable on the bike.

Email a few bike fitters the pictures you have posted here. My bet is that they will say they can do as much for you as possible but to not expect too many drastic changes in comfort and that most likely a bigger frame (longer top tube) would give them a better chance of getting you as comfortable as possible. I would also imagine that they wouldn't be super keen on fitting with flat pedals as they tend to put the feet in positions too far away from where they would like to fit and people tend to rotate their feet in ways they wouldn't on clipless pedals. It is hard to explain but see what they say. It could be worth a few emails just to know where you stand and what you might need to invest in (physio/ fit/ frame) in the near future.

a layback seatpost would help.

A vertical line from the pedal axle when the crank is horizontal should be just on the front of the kneecap

These two terms are at odds. Set the saddle in the correct position according to the knee, Then determine the reach to the bars. Do NOT move the saddle back to accomodate poor fit, that will exacerbate the knee pain. A layback saddle will just require that the saddle be placed further forward on the rails.

I find the 108% and heel on pedal rules tend to position the saddle too high with a knee bend of about 20 degrees. And they are of course subjective, depending on the seat tube angle. I prefer 25 degrees with knee over pedal. This is valid for all frame angles.

Just fit a longer stem. You won't die, and it's a little bit retro 😉

[i]a layback seatpost would help.

A vertical line from the pedal axle when the crank is horizontal should be just on the front of the kneecap[/i]

[u]These two terms are at odds[/u]. Set the saddle in the correct position according to the knee, Then determine the reach to the bars. Do NOT move the saddle back to accomodate poor fit, that will exacerbate the knee pain. A layback saddle will just require that the saddle be placed further forward on the rails.

This is correct besides the first sentence. The OP is quite far forwards over the pedals so needs point one (the layback post) to satisfy point 2 (the horrible rule of thumb 😀 )

I definitely agree with setting the saddle to pedal relationship first then getting the reach correct. I would say the saddle to pedal relationship isn't really right for the OP which is why this might need some adjustment first. As before though, it is hard to tell from static photos and a fitter/ physio will be able to help more.

Just fit a longer stem. You won't die, and it's a little bit retro 😀

A longer stem might help but given how upright the OP is sat it might have to be one of those custom 15cm jobbies one if the Astana riders was using 😯 😀 (this is a joke, just in case it is not clear)

I've got two 120mm stems. He can have one for the cost of postage 😉 . And that 160cm stem is suitable for gibbons and not much else! It was a custom abomination. MUst want a VERY low position.

I'm similar sized and getting on an XL made the world of difference for having the right shaped cockpit for pedalling, far more efficient and comfortable for me.

Just an observation here. You may only have jumped on the bike quickly to take the photos, but your foot looks quite a way forwards on the pedals. A common rule-of-thumb (so take with a pinch of salt, as has been said many times before) is for the ball of your foot to be more-or-less over the pedal axle. Foot further forward = effectively shorter leg-foot system, especially if combined with a pedal stroke that flexes the ankle at the bottom of the stroke. Also, you may pedal in a more toe-down or heel-down style. Any given saddle height formula (x times inside leg etc...) cannot account for this difference in pedalling technique so what's a 'good' height for one style may be too high or low for another. A static photo can't show this.
I guess what I'm saying is, get a bike fit first, where someone who knows what they're on about can see you actually pedalling, and pedalling hard. This can be from an experienced rider, or your friendly LBS, better from a qualified bike fitter, best of all from somewhere that combines bike fit and a qualified physio so they can have a bash at the knee pain as well as your position. The latter won't be cheap, but neither is a Thomson seatpost that you don't need.

I had very similar pain in terms of where it was located and when it arose and lowering the saddle eliminated it. Mine was only a cm or so too high, maybe less (I had set up a new bike according to a bike fit I had a while ago but forgot to take into account that the bike fit was done in shoes with cleats and I now run flats which accounted for the difference).

Make small adjustments downwards before each new ride (a two inch adjustment is far too much in one go). Don't forget that as you adjust the seatpost downwards, due to the angle of the seatpost, you will probably need to move the saddle slightly back to keep your knee in the correct position over the pedal.

Repeat small adjustments until the pain goes. If it doesn't, then go and get a bike fit. If the pain persists after the bike fit, see a physio. Don't bother changing the stem until your saddle is in the correct position and you know what length/rise to buy.

[b]You've damaged or weakened something in your knees/legs recently[/b] You've had the bike since 2007 and it's worked fine. The bike would have caused issues much earlier if it was at fault.

I'd recommend seeing a physio BEFORE going for a bike fit, buying a new bike etc. It could simply be a muscle/ligament imbalance thing that could be fixed by a few "knees in line with feet" squats or similar. I had ligament pain (but only in certain situations e.g. climbing on my bike) due to the shoes I wore every day being worn out. Chucked the shoes and did some strengthening exercises, pain vanished (bought new shoes too obviously). Bike fit is important but get your knees looked at first

Dmorts makes a good point and this may be the case, although the thing I think mitigates against this is that it's coming on after an hour. If you had a meniscal tear then you would find it difficult to even pedal a bike let alone go up a hill!

The problem with all of the above geometry assessments is they are purely rules of thumb and you do not have what I would call a normally proportioned leg to torso ratio. This is why, as I stated above, getting a larger frame will put your whole body in a more efficient and dynamic position.

A physio might be a good start as they will examine the knee and assess gait etc although to me this sounds still like a dynamic bike problem rather than an out and out injury. Usually with meniscal tears there is a traumatic incident, although not always.

I also think you need to be careful which bike-fitter you go to as some will simply apply the rules of thumb stated above instead of getting you in a position most acceptable for your body. A good one will talk about the angles your torso makes to your thigh, your thigh to your leg and the reach and angle of your torso relative to the bars. Cleat position is also very important and must take into account any deviation your normal stance has to what is defined as generally normal.

It's very difficult to make accurate assessments from looking at still pictures and I think you will be better helped by someone seeing you on a bike in real life to see how it all fits together (absolutely no pun intended :P)

I think there's an awful lot of barking up the wrong trees here. As far as I can see there's a whole load of roadie cliches being quoted which are all but irrelevant to MTBing. Knee over pedal axle isn't necessarily right. Pedal axle behind ball of foot is better than pedal axle under ball of foot, especially when pedalling standing or riding hard downhill. The stretched out roadie position only really benefits you if aerodynamics matter when you're pedalling - at MTB speeds that is rare. A more vertical body position lets your lungs work better because it gives your diaphragm more space to move.

The OP's saddle looks ridiculously high in the first pics. I'd go and see a physio. I wouldn't get a bike fit unless you're a 'dirt roadie' who just pedals up and down fireroads all the time.

I would[s]n't[/s] get a bike fit unless you're a [s]'dirt roadie'[/s] gnarly dude who [s]just pedals up and down fireroads all the time[/s] never needs to pedal and prefers an uplift to a challenging technical climb.

Ok, so the changes to the original comment are an equal load of BS to the original comment itself but you get the point. You can't write off getting a bike that fits you properly as something just for "dirt roadies," whoever they are 😀

There are also a lot of MTB cliches about bike fits having no application to MTB 😉 But that has been done to death on other threads...

Position and sitting upright or stretched out does not just relate to aerodynamics but also affects variations in muscle recruitment used during pedaling which may or may not influence pain/ soft tissue damage in an individual depending on the specifics of the individual and the bike. I would agree though, see the physio first to sort the knee then think about where to go from there. Based on the photos alone I think a bike fit would help get a bit of proper advice one way or another as to the numerous possible changes which may help the OP ride more comfortably. There certainly looks to be a lot of room for improved comfort.

Some links for the OP for reference:

[url= http://bikedynamics.co.uk/kneepain.htm ]Bike Dynamics[/url] have some pretty good short explanations of some rough principles of fit.

Also, if you come across articles by [url= http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com/blog/ ]Steve Hogg[/url] then these are the better ones to take on board rather than the rules of thumb you might often see printed.

Speedstar, how about something is weak or unbalanced rather than torn, hence taking an hour to come on?

I'd pay for a private fizzeo to have a quick butchers. They'll give you some exercises to compensate and balance up whatever the issue is.

good luck

The key to "balance" would be muscular strength essentially, as the muscles not only provide power but also structure across joints. In regards the knee joint, strengthening the anterior thigh groups generally ie. hip flexors and adductors, will help. My feeling is that the OP is usually quite fit and cycles frequently, which is why it's odd that something would start to hurt after cycling on the same bike, in the same position for a long period without pain.

The knee is complicated because it has 3 different surfaces all acting on one another: the patella, the femur and the head of the tibia. Therefore, any potential combination of acting forces could cause pain from surface to surface contact or from the motion across the knee essentially causing over-stretch of the tissues providing support at the knee joint.

The OP stated he has pain medially which makes me think there is a tendency for whatever reason for the medial surfaces of the femur and tibia to be opposing one another somewhat during the pedal stroke. This may cause pain in either the lateral ligaments, the menisci or through the cruciate ligaments. Pain in the medial aspect of the knee may come from a rotational force, possibly due to poor cleat alignment or too much force at certain points in the pedal arc being applied, or it can be a muscular weakness issue where the structure across the knee is not able to support the force through it, most likely due to weakened quadriceps or adductor group muscles, which would again cause a rotational-type pain. I certainly think having no float in the pedal stroke is a good predictor of pain in cycling as nobodies leg will move in a strictly linear manner during pedalling and the knee joint is always moving in a 3D plane.

The complexity of the picture, however, particularly for someone who is getting pain from a single activity, essentially a single motion, is such that just speculating from the distance of the internet is probably not the correct way to go about diagnosing anything, hence why going to see a bike-fit specialist is probably the best bet, with caveats. Too many possible combinations of input and output result purely in an overload of opinion based on each individuals experience, something that occurs in every post of this nature on forums.

just speculating from the distance of the internet is probably not the correct way to go about [s][b]diagnosing[/b][/s] anything,

Just thought I'd edit that for you so you can use it on every other thread on here. 😀

My simple method for saddle height is rest your armpit squarely on the part of the saddle where your bum sits reach down to your crank axle and with your middle finger it should be exact centre of the axle, do not stretch or lean. This idea was given to me by a bike fitting chap and it seems to be pretty reliable. If you have orangutan arms then try something else.

Evening guys, thanks for continued advice, i'll have a look through the new threads tomorrow.

In the meantime I had a look at the geo for the 2007 Heckler model as some mentioned the frame being too small..

http://www.santacruzbikes.co.uk/site2009/bicycles/geom/heckler.html

If I could get an XL, it would give 1" more on the toptube length

1.5" longer seattube

0.8" longer headtube

a 20mm setback seatpost (possibly longer stem) could make a huge difference if L > XL is so minimal.

Just glanced at you on the bike and at your height the first thing I would try is a set back post. Those saddles don't have much range in the rails either so the post would be a good start. The cockpit/top tube looks short under you but a post wouldn't break the bank so worth a go.

I wonder if going to clipless to keep your foot fixed over the axle would be worth a go to see if the pain drops off? In one of the pics you have taken the pic with the foot placed closer to the arch of the foot. This kind of throws a spanner in the works and it makes me wonder if you occasionally end up riding more on, or closer to the arch of the foot. The difference between the ball and the arch for leg extension is quite a bit. So maybe on the downstroke, you are over extending at times when your foot is placed a bit too far forward.

DanW - thanks for the detailed post. I'm holding onto the top of the fence in all the pics as hopping on the bike before the 5 second shutter goes off, so it may look a lot more upright than normal. But the extra large only has 1" longer toptube and that is sized for 6'2" to 6'6". I'm going to go with a layback seatpost this weekend to see how it effects everything.

Nickc - i've gone to a faster cadence uphills as the slower cadences can put more shearing force on the knee cap which i'm trying to avoid while I get to the bottom of the pain.

Scud - i'm going to try and find a good physio/bike fitter once i've tried a few more things

Captainmainwaring - thanks, the pics in the OP are pretty much not far off the 109% method. I will check out the KOP though with horizontal cranks.

Danw - more great info, i'll mail a couple of bike fitters, see what they reckon.

TiRed - thanks for the stem offer, i'll measure what i'm currently running later on. 🙂

Crispycross - I tend to let feet land naturally on the pedals and don't pay much attention, to ball of foot over axle etc, but i'll make a concious effort today to ride on the ball, with the layback post and see how I get on!

Surreyhillsmtber, i'll lower saddle 0.5-1" along with setback & see how that sets me on the bike.

dmorts - i've recently got some Shimano AM41's which are sticky as hell, along with strava PR's being broken everyride up until the knee pain started so perhaps i've been pushing too much, along with sticky feet positioning and not enough cadence, hence imbalance/injured something.

Speedstar - I can imagine there are a raft of pro fitters out there which use rules of thumb, so its probably a mine field finding a decent one. But I will search that option.

chiefgrooveguru - the ball over axle vs just behind axle vs arch over axle etc doesnt seem any concise clear cut rules online, lots of contradictory stuff?

speedstar - more great advice, forums are a great sounding board for initial issues before deciding what to do next, so appriciate everyones thoughts.

martinxyz - before I got the AM41's my feet moved around when riding quite a lot, DMR V12's on worn grub screws didnt grip like originally. Now on superstar nanos with AM41's so once feet naturally land they don't tend to move much. I'm wondering if I put my V12's back on with rubbish trainers if i'd have more flat pedal "float"?

Heres how much play i've got in the current seatpost, it will probably go back a further 0.5"

Current position..
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Rails...
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Once i'm happy i've got to the bottom of the issue, i'm possibly looking at the Tallboy or Tallboy LT 29er's as a new bike choice. Hecklers done me well since 2007 but perhaps its time for a change. I want to be happy i've got to the root cause if possible first though.

Some good advice on saddle positioning and stem length.
Just wondering if the OP does any other sports?
I used to play a lot of football and that played havoc with my knees. I had problems with rotated patellas (knee caps) due to imbalances with muscle. Certain muscles became more developed and pulled my knee out of alignment which caused great pain when rising from a seated positioning or climbing stairs.
A different problem I also had was popping (locking) knee joints for a year or so. The NHS sent me to a physio which didn't really diagnose anything - because the knee joint and knee pain is notoriously hard to diagnose without an MRI scan. Had I completed the physio sessions - I could have pushed for the MRI.

mudsux occasional hiking. Used to do lots of squats/deadlifts at the gym but not recently.

Was going to pick up a thomson layback today but LBS wanted £65 and it only gives 16mm, and apparently the saddle nose can point up slightly depending on the bike seattube.

So went for this from chainreaction, worth a punt at £40, with 25mm layback

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/truvativ-stylo-t40-seatpost-2012/rp-prod71779

I'd echo the bike being a bit small myself, though small so much of a problem as too big, as you can adjust for too small. Though there are limits. Leg extension looks okay in the photo for your height on that bike in my opinion.

Lowering may help but then again I find knees complain more if the seat is too low for climbing. Though I'd find the height in those photos way too much for me on descents.

I'd suggest a dropper post. I'd keep the high seated position for climbs, and otherwise seat down and generally ride out of the saddle aside from pootling on the flat.

To be fair the Cruz bikes are a bit short also. I'd say try a longer stem though you're fairly long there already. Wide low bars will get you stretched out more as you seem a bit upright in that cockpit, though with wide bars you may need a shorter stem. Don't know if that would make a difference to the legs and knees. Maybe.

Foot position - I'll leave that to others to argue. My opinion leads to anger, so I'll say no more. 😉

I had a large 5 spot that I really wanted to keep as it was great going downhill but killed me as it was so short! Even with a layback post and the seat all the way back on the rails! That just made the front end to light as my weight was to far back over the Bike even though foot position was right.

In the end I sold it and bought and xl and it's sooooo much better for me!

That bike is way to small for you!

So just back from a ride, slid the saddle as far back as it would go on current Thomson seatpost, probably around half an inch and lowered the seatpost itself by an inch.

Also made a concious effort to ride with ball of foot over axle, this felt strange at first, and I think naturally I ride with feet a lot more central over the axle. But on a 20 mile ride the only pain I got was a twinge which only started in the last 3 miles, and no where near as bad as usual. This almost double's the usual mileage before it kicks in.

Looking forward to trying the Truvativ Stylo T40 now with the 25mm layback 😀

Evening guys, never got round to updating this, thanks for all the layback seatpost suggestions as its worked a treat, i've been riding knee pain free now for 2 weeks, with not even a twinge on longer rides.

Truvativ Stylo T40, giving a full inch of setback, only £40 so great buy, only complaint the finish isn't great as its marked already, but it does have great measurement markers on the back for small pin point adjustments.

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Great freeware "MB Ruler" for measuring approx angles etc, all line up pretty well as reccomended here... http://bikedynamics.co.uk/guidelines.htm

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Also stopped using the Shimano AM41's as with the superstar nano's theres just no movement once feet planted, with cheapo trainers grip is still great but feet move around a lot more naturally throughout the ride. Planning to try out some sports direct cheapo £15 skate flats.

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So thanks again, good to be hitting the trails pain free! 🙂