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I'm sure they've weighed it all up but, seems a weird one
https://twitter.com/davearthur/status/1305944776932552704?s=19
That's not great, but I think it's reasonable that the UK specifies brakes are mounted, well, the UK way round ("moto", if you want to sound cool).
In other threads I've seen a worrying amount of consideration to giving it a go with brakes the wrong way round, which is a disaster waiting to happen.
I expect it could be driven, at least in part, by the increased demand for bikes this year.
As a Yank, many times I've had to ride bikes in the UK "wrong way round" and no problems after a few minutes of settling in. Not for everyone of course, but I think it's a stretch to say "disaster waiting to happen".
Seems a bit nanny-ist to me. I would guess that the type of person who orders a Rose online from Germany is probably the kind of person who could easily swap cables, or have their bike shop do it?
In the overall scheme of things, is it really helpful to have a law stating which side of the handlebar a particular brake should go to?
Hmmmmmm - when I bought my Granite Chief, it was built by their UK rep anyway (Fin?) - sounds like the no longer use that model - just ship direct from Germany.
Seems very strange - to give up entirely on a UK market because of a small issue that could easily be addressed via an additional QC step.
Sounds to me like they wanted an excuse to stop shipping into the UK, and are blaming "health and safety / legal reasons"
Bugger, and XLite 4 was going to be my next purchase!
Possibly due to added complications of re-routing hydro hoses through those butt-ugly integrated headsets they've introduced?
Also - what is 'serial production'? Does that mean no more customisable parts? Would be a big shame, seemed a very forward looking way to do things e.g. don't lumber the customer with crap tyres they won't use, wrong size cranks etc.
Sounds to me like they wanted an excuse to stop shipping into the UK, and are blaming “health and safety / legal reasons”
My guess is that they're profiteering capitalists who insist on making a profit before they'll sell anything.
If it was profitable, they'd find a way to resolve the brake issue and sell here... more likely the demand here just doesn't make the maths add up
The Rose UK website still looks set up to sell you a bike? Not sure when/if this will happen? Seems strange, a good number of bikes must be imported to UK and no other manufacturer is having difficulty?
I live in Austria and do bike tours with EU set brakes. My own bike is 16 years old and UK setup on brakes. For me, it`s not even an issue. You will adjust depending on the bike.
The issue is whether you adjust before face planting in an epic manner.
I've been at bike hire places including Whistler where they will not allow the bikes out the door until they have switched to your preference.
Your average rider might remember for a bit, but any unexpected braking or something take your attention away, and you'll be over the bars.
I've been over the bars on a friends bike who had set his brakes the wrong way as he didn't know it was wrong, luckily it was slow speed and I managed too stumble over the bars and avoid a face plant onto the road!
With your Ebike tours Iolo, if you had UK customers I would expect you to have some bikes UK style or ability to easily switch them over when handing out the bikes, especially if going off-road.
My guess is that they’re profiteering capitalists who insist on making a profit before they’ll sell anything
Exactly. Even if it's "just 5 minutes to swap them" (Protip: it isn't), it's still a cost.
They might also be taking the unusual approach of thinking maybe, just maybe, everything isn't going to work out fine in 3 months time, and it isn't going to be as easy as it is now to sell things to the UK.
Interesting that they didn’t just put a surcharge on it.
The issue is whether you adjust before face planting in an epic manner.
Disagree. I’ve ridden bikes with brakes the ‘wrong’ way and i found it impossible off road. I suppose if you just brake in a very basic way by pulling on both brakes to slow down (probably fine on the road 99% of the time) then it’s not really an issue.
But if you actually use each brake independently using your lizard brain, then there’s no way you’ll adjust in the space of one ride. Imagine trimming a manual on the brake and realising a second or so later (as your head hits the tarmac) that what you thought was the back brake was doing nothing.
It’s very simple to flip (most?) SRAM brakes without bleeding, so it would make sense for manufacturers to use exclusively SRAM brakes for export to ‘opposite’ markets. Perhaps they don’t want to be constrained in that way.
Disagree. I’ve ridden bikes with brakes the ‘wrong’ way and i found it impossible off road. I suppose if you just brake in a very basic way by pulling on both brakes to slow down (probably fine on the road 99% of the time) then it’s not really an issue.
Or some people's experience are different to yours and they have different skills.
Possibly looked at the actual amount of bikes they sell here, tried to work out how it'll go after Brexit and decided **** it.
Also – what is ‘serial production’?
Production line, with people having limited specific tasks to perform, rather than one person building your bike for you (and one checking it).
Yes definately a Brexit related stance I'd suggest....more of that to come along with higher prices for the stuff we can still buy.
I rode a hire bike in france with the brakes the wrong way round without issue, just kept repeating righty-tighty as a mantra after my boy said that was what I needed to think. Worked fine but I couldn't get away from the the feeling that in a panic/emergency situation 40 years of muscle memory would kick in and it would all go a bit pete tongue.
I face planted last year on a bike with the brakes set up the wrong way, more embarrassing than actual painful.
On hire bikes in Costa Rica, following a sandy single track, the guys in front did a skid to a stop, so I decided to join in and pull a huge skid, but pulled the front brake instead! Tyres bit into the sand and over I went!
I used to live and ride overseas so I’m supposed to be used to both set ups, doesn’t take much to have a brain fart moment and I was lucky my landing was sandy. All my own fault though....and yes, it was the talking/laughing point for the rest of the ride.
@ krixmeister the brake orientation is for road riding safety, so you can indicate to turn across the traffic and one handed brake without launching yourself over the bars. So I'd say it's perfectly understandable for it to be set in law.
Interesting that they didn’t just put a surcharge on it.
"Can you believe it, Rose bikes are charging £xx for something that takes five minutes to do?"
"Taking the piss, I'm not going to pay for something I can do myself, but I can't choose not to."
"Rose bikes are shocking, it takes two weeks longer to get a bike in the UK when it is next day delivery in Germany "
Etc. Etc. Etc. Until their social media team has a nervous breakdown.
They may well reintroduce UK shipping next year, when the picture for retailing into the UK is clear… this way they avoid bike sales and deliveries spanning the end of transition, and the start of… well… whatever. Or it might turn out to not be worth the bother.
B******s. Both my road and cross bikes are Rose and I would definitely buy from them again. Seems a trip would be in order. Pretty sure it is a pretty small market for them - I rarely see other Roses.
Think I've only ever seen one rose bike, can't imagine they shift huge numbers to the UK. My mate rides with his brakes euro style by choice, not sure why he does but it doesn't cause him any issues, nor does riding a bike with UK style brake setup. He's only in his 20s though so not as entrenched as the rest of us oldies 🙂
If it was profitable, they’d find a way to resolve the brake issue and sell here… more likely the demand here just doesn’t make the maths add up
I suspect several companies across lots of sectors are reviewing the incurred costs and any extra liabilities in supplying to the UK right now as we stand on the brink of "divergence"...
In Rose's position I'd probably look at the relatively small numbers they sell over here vs the cost of implementing a variation in production and the inevitable arm waving when an EU spec bike is accidentally supplied to a UK customer...
But part of me just wants to blame Brexit... Cos that's basically the real reason 😉
Possibly looked at the actual amount of bikes they sell here, tried to work out how it’ll go after Brexit and decided **** it.
Yeah, that's my guess too - can't blame them tbf. Shame.
As someone who sells bikes outside the UK I would say this is all about winding down pre Brexit. As mentioned you could limit to SRAM only and then the customer says they'll do the swap and you could probably get away with it. What you can't avoid is the massive PITA that sending bikes from the EU to the UK will be after Brexit if it's anything like sending say to the USA. Where 2020 has been a bit of a golden year for the UK bike industry I suspect 2021 will be somewhat the opposite as supply remains disrupted and then compounded by Brexit disruption.
Are they using brake levers that can't be flipped over? I haven't paid much attention to brake lever designs over the past few years, but my last 3 bikes have all had flippable/reversible brakes so they can be left or right on the bars...is that no longer a thing now?
I suspect it is more related to Brexit and the excrement-show this is...likely to not want the hassle and might look at it again once (if!) things settle down.
They are taking back their controls.
Ahhh... You Brits and your "wrong way round" brakes silliness...
So The Whole World, apart of few, very few places, is wrong way but you somehow, as a minority have it "right way around"?
Always makes me chuckle 😀
On the slightly more serious note, when I bought my first new bike in UK I thought I will try your fashion on brakes. Didn't feel at all comfortable. My brain and muscle memory was screeching and wailing...
So I'm sure some people can adapt more or less easily but I'm not one of them.
Cheers!
I.
Smells like bullshit to me. You really have to worry about their competence and ability of they come out and say
" Sorry everyone, putting the brakes the other way round is actually beyond us. We're stopping"
Yeah, right.
/ Whispers br'x't
Must be more to it, likes been said. Unless the next step is BMW and the likes stopping RHD cars for the same reasons!!!!
That's annoying as I had 2 Rose bikes on my shortlist.
But if you actually use each brake independently using your lizard brain, then there’s no way you’ll adjust in the space of one ride.
I have memories of a comedy crash at walking pace on a Canadian friend's bike because of this. I gather I'm far from alone in not every wanting to repeat this at normal speed.
So The Whole World, apart of few, very few places, is wrong way but you somehow, as a minority have it “right way around”?
I don’t think anyone has said that? I’d personally be in favour of international standardisation (I don’t really buy the road safety argument), but I’ve been riding bikes for more than 30 years so I’d struggle with any change now.
They are taking back their controls.
Trying to stop the wheel of the people.
err but what about Ireland?
So no Rose bikes to the Republic as well?
SRAM only and then the customer says they’ll do the swap
They can't. New bikes must have the brakes the UK way round.
https://www.cyclinguk.org/cyclists-library/regulations/safety-regulations
There lots of other countries using brakes the same way around as us (and LHD cars), but if Rose isn’t already selling in numbers to them, than they would effectively be adapting their production line just for us (at a time when “wait and see” might be wise). Remember, they are retailers as well as a bike brand… and the complications (at least short term) of the UK no longer being part for their home market from Jan are still unknown.
given the ban includes bikes, frames and forks, it would appear they're just trying not to sell any big ticket items (the only other item that can cost a grand is probably a wheelset??) - probably because they don't want to get stuck with a tax bill come brexit, but are trying to remain apolitical. I expect they'll be back
So The Whole World, apart of few, very few places, is wrong way but you somehow, as a minority have it “right way around”?
The reason for the UK setup has already been explained in this thread.
The one in my spare bedroom has the inline hose connectors on the brakes. i think you can switch them over without bleeding in 30 seconds. Given you'd have to bleed after threading them through the frame it seems strange.
Check them out on trust pilot - they seem to have some issues. The bike I have is my second from them. It's been a shocking experience. Ordered a custom build in July. Date pushed back with no notification. Arrived September. Wrong parts fitted - cranks, wheels, bar tape, casette. Basically everything I had changed from stock. Now in the process of trying to fix it. 10 weeks after ordering. The best they have offered is they send me the parts and I rebuild my bike. But the parts aren't in stock...
I think they are lacking in staff and are swamped by orders so can't cope. Custom builds have been disappearing from their site. I think this is a move to streamline their factory to meet the orders they have. The UK is a more complicated step so is being removed. My guess is they will be back if their home markets start to drop off.
Check them out on trust pilot – they seem to have some issues. The bike I have is my second from them. It’s been a shocking experience. Ordered a custom build in July. Date pushed back with no notification. Arrived September. Wrong parts fitted – cranks, wheels, bar tape, casette. Basically everything I had changed from stock.
I'm a bit of a Rose fan-boi but in truth I had a similar initial experience, they sent me an order confirmation with a few of the wrong bits listed, again, stuff they obviously didn't have in stock. A bit of back and forth sorted it (I pointed out that they could swap the 53-39 chainrings with the 50-34 chainrings they were selling on their web store) and to their credit they did it for me, and the bike arrived perfect.
B******s. Both my road and cross bikes are Rose and I would definitely buy from them again. Seems a trip would be in order.
If I was in a financial position to order one I could get it delivered to our hotel in France on Day 0 of our Pyrenees trip next year... Probably the definition of 'asking for trouble' to start your trip on a brand new bike that's been delivered to your hotel the night before 😀
benpinnick
As someone who sells bikes outside the UK I would say this is all about winding down pre Brexit. As mentioned you could limit to SRAM only and then the customer says they’ll do the swap and you could probably get away with it. What you can’t avoid is the massive PITA that sending bikes from the EU to the UK will be after Brexit if it’s anything like sending say to the USA. Where 2020 has been a bit of a golden year for the UK bike industry I suspect 2021 will be somewhat the opposite as supply remains disrupted and then compounded by Brexit disruption.
I'd imagine the law around liability and the like is another massive grey area for companies also - they don't know what laws and standards will apply in the UK. (presumably nobody does)
scotroutes
The reason for the UK setup has already been explained in this thread.
It's because all those other countries drive on the wrong side of the road that they have their brakes set up wrong.
Ordered a custom build in July. Date pushed back with no notification. Arrived September. Wrong parts fitted – cranks, wheels, bar tape, casette.
Well it's either swap out parts or not have a bike for months at the moment. They should communicate this but realistically I'd let them off to some extent - supply chains are in unprecedented levels of chaos right now and have been that way all summer. If you got the bike you're better off than most.
As a company expecting to lose 50% of retail turnover when we crash out of Europe in a chaotic shambles, here’s one of the basic reasons.
Shipping Dpd to Germany £7 for anything upto 30kg. Ten metres across the boarder in Switzerland £50. The difference all the customs fees and docs, then chuck in all the fees for the customer end too and strangely customers don’t bother ordering. Also any customer service in future costs that on every shipment too so especially on big stuff It entirely nukes the margin.
As of leaving properly that’s the whole of Europe.
Then Throw in we want our own rules for everything. Which means legally it’s double the ballache to comply for what to the Europeans is a poxy little slice of their market.
Hence why we are focusing on manufacturing currently.
Neil SuperstarComponents
tHiS iSN't tHe BrExit I vOtED fOR!
In before the "yeah, but a deal hasn't been done yet" guys.
Best of luck Neil.
They can’t. New bikes must have the brakes the UK way round.
https://www.cyclinguk.org/cyclists-library/regulations/safety-regulations/blockquote >
Unless assembled by the customer. No reason the brakes can't be part of tha assembly process.
Can anyone explain what "dumping protection reasons" might mean?
Unless the next step is BMW and the likes stopping RHD cars for the same reasons!!!!
Japan uses RHD (and moto-style brakes on bikes). It's a major market for Euro car makers so they'll make RHD just for that.
Unless assembled by the customer. No reason the brakes can’t be part of tha assembly process.
Shimano brake levers must be split from the hoses and bled afterwards. If they're supplied to the UK, the suppliers will need to do that so they are ready to fit.
I bought my road bike in the UK and my MTB is YT so came set up with euro brakes. I'm very used to rear braking with my right hand when MTBing now but I have rented a couple of bikes and found it very easy to just remember to squeeze the other lever instead. I guess if you've been doing it one way for decades it's harder but for me it comes naturally.
That is a poor excuse by Rose though, it's definitely brexit related instead and they just don't want to say it.
Can anyone explain what “dumping protection reasons” might mean?
Am guessing, but do groupset manufacturers not try to prevent companies masquerading as a 'bike manufacturer' but then selling off cheap groupsets e.g. 'dumping' cheap groupsets on the market and lowering the perceived value?
As such, if Rose were only selling frames and forks to the UK, then within the (post-EU) UK market they might not be seen as a manufacturer, and therefore might be seen as breaching Shimano/SRAM's 'dumping protection' measures if they are only selling parts and not complete bikes?
Wierd, I was told that the UK was th largest MTB market in eurpoe by a long way. i dunno if that is still true but it seems daft to dump a whole market.
Wierd, I was told that the UK was th largest MTB market in eurpoe by a long way. i dunno if that is still true but it seems daft to dump a whole market.
Not by a long way
it seems daft to dump a whole market
What if you don't have a big presence in that market and selling into it costs more money than you are willing to spend? Not making a profit is the daftest thing a company can do.
Unless assembled by the customer. No reason the brakes can’t be part of tha assembly process.
Hold that thought, and add road bikes.
As such, if Rose were only selling frames and forks to the UK, then within the (post-EU) UK market they might not be seen as a manufacturer, and therefore might be seen as breaching Shimano/SRAM’s ‘dumping protection’ measures if they are only selling parts and not complete bikes?
That seems plausible, although I'm a bit surprised that it's an issue if they're only selling retail components. Pretty sure that all Shimano stuff I've had from Rose has been in retail packaging.
Hold that thought, and add road bikes
Or anything internally routed
If I'm Rose this is an easy decision to make...
1) Faff and added complexity with internal routing of swapping as they seem to be batch building standard builds now rather than doing the custom thing. Perfectly reasonable considering the level of demand for bikes over the last 6 months.
2) Leadtime on some bikes that they can take orders on is probably into 2021 now, so Brexit complicates fulfilling them, there could well be duties etc that will have to be paid buy the consumer, which may not have been stated at time of ordering.
3) Health and Safety - what rules will apply? Are they opening themselves up to a nightmare?
Aye road bikes is an issue on the brakes. The thing to remember for all things post brexit is that its made us a soft target for cuts. Rose sell good value bikes. They're not rinsing them out at some massive margin. So as soon as things get a bit difficult they're going to look for the easy ways to improve their business and streamline operations.
We were never likely to get a trade deal which kept the borders open between us and the EU, and now the Gov. seems determined to squash out the last flicker of hope that could happen we sit here, 3 1/2 months to go with no idea how or indeed how well trade will function between us and EU countries. So yeah, if I was Rose or in fact any EU based bike company right now I'd not be selling anything I couldn't deliver before the end of the year, and I would be questioning the value of continuing after when there's massive lead times on key components now, which will likely create shortages in 2021. Just like Rose sometime in the not too distant future we'll have to shutdown our EU sales for at least some period of transition to allow for the changes in VAT and duty that will happen. Straddling the change would be a royal PITA so we'll probably stop and then restart once the outlook is clear. Not what I want to do but probably the best option I have.
tetrode
That is a poor excuse by Rose though, it’s definitely brexit related instead and they just don’t want to say it.
Why would they not want to say it? It's not like pointing out that Brexit is a disaster is somehow taboo.
That seems plausible, although I’m a bit surprised that it’s an issue if they’re only selling retail components. Pretty sure that all Shimano stuff I’ve had from Rose has been in retail packaging.
Supply agreements generally prohibit selling outside the EU. Thats a relatively small window now where we're still in the EU zone, so not really a big deal to shut it down a couple of months before you'd probably need to.
weird, im fine with the brakes either way on the bars or the steering wheel on either side of the car
but running all the hoses through the frame is pure mental (TTing roadies excepted)
no problems after a few minutes of settling in
Hard to remove years of instinct in just a few hours. No issues at all on a 4 day riding holiday until I entered a corner with a little too much speed and couldn't understand why the bike wasn't slowing down. Fortunately I'd grabbed a handful of the back brake and not the front, and I made it around the bend - just - but there was more than one kind of skid mark on the road.
I'm pretty sure of you believe in Brexit hard enough Rose will absolutely continue to send you bikes no problem. They need us more than we need them. Never forget that.
Not by a long way
Well not MTB but joint 2nd largest bicycle market in europe. https://issuu.com/conebi/docs/20170713_european_bicyle_industry_a
Germany 21%, France 16%, Uk 16%
There's no reason road bikes should be an issue. Use the Shimano J-Kit hoses and all the swapping is done easily enough. In fact, I wish Shimano would just ship all brakes on all bikes with those hoses.
Aside from that one post, I can't find anything whatsoever to back this up. The bit about 'dumping protection' sound ridiculous to me, yet everyone appears fixated on the whole brake issue.
Good ol' social media.
it seems daft to dump a whole market
We're probably just not worth the effort. Obvs Ben from Bird and Neil from Superstar have a far better grasp of things than me, but this will be one small tale of woe of many coming.
They're very politely avoiding the Brexit word, and it seems to be more than one thing, but can you blame them? - it's mid-Sept 2020, the transition period ends in 107 days, not a long time in business, how long until their expected delivery dates start bumping into a period when they don't even know if they can export bikes to the UK?
Add in their new production methods, it's a shame, but to further increase profits / cut costs they seem to be moving away from paying "expensive" Bike Mechanics to build bikes all day, to using 'Production Operatives' to do the same simple task over and over. They seemingly can't factor in two brake leaver configurations into that, they can't ship the brakes the wrong way because of UK laws and the chance of being sued if someone hurts themselves and they can't circumvent that buy selling them in bits for home assembly because of the Dumping protection rules.
I'm sure if they had the sales in the UK that YT get, they'd make more of an accommodation for us, but they don't.
This won't make much of a ripple in the UK, a few thousand people will hear, maybe a few hundred care, but more things like this will start to be heard - obvs the Gov will blame them, blame the EU, blame the ****ing weather who knows.
Sadly (perhaps) we don't, at this point, seem to be befitting from it either. Small, insignificant almost thing today - Nissan have revealed a new Z-car concept, some car nutters have been waiting months for it - the kicker, they're not bringing it to Europe, EU emissions regs just don't allow for a low-volume 400bhp V6 twin-turbo Coupe. "Ah, but we're leaving the EU this year" say the petrol heads - but even though it's a Japanese car (which is a RHD market) they've said no to the UK, because we're just not worth the effort of making UK legal, even if our emissions regulations (whatever they may be next year) allow it.
We're going to have to get used to being the small country we are, because even though we're 7th in the world by GDP, we're all alone and everyone else is in some kind of union with other nations.
Well not MTB but joint 2nd largest bicycle market in europe. https://issuu.com/conebi/docs/20170713_european_bicyle_industry_a
Germany 21%, France 16%, Uk 16%
That's the problem - I don't know how far you have to go down that list until you get to a non-EU European country, but in Business terms, it's not Germany 21% France 16% UK 16% etc - it's EU 84% - UK 16%.
It seems like some quite large markets drive / ride of the left. Smells more like Brexit.
Australia
Bermuda
Channel Islands
Cyprus<
Hong Kong
India<
Indonesia
Ireland
Isle of Man<
Jamaica<
Japan
Kenya
Macau
Malaysia
Malta
Nepal
New Zealand
****stan
Singapore
South Africa
Thailand
United Kingdom
Hard to remove years of instinct in just a few hours.
Agreed. It's fine until instinct needs to take over. For me it was when the front wheel started to slide approaching a corner, so I instinctively applied a little less front and a little more back. Didn't seem to fix the problem, so I instinctively did it some more. Fortunately it was a soft landing.
Same reason that accidentally putting a car in reverse rather than 1st can end so badly. Your brain doesn't understand the problem, so presses the pedal that's supposed to make you go forwards harder. I know someone who wrote off two cars and put holes in both ends of their garage this way.
Meh, not a great loss is it? Don't think I have ever seen a Rose bike out on the trails and it isn't somewhere I would look when shopping for a new bike.
No me niether, I'm just navel gazing.
16% of my market disspearing would bother me. As others noted brexit might be the real reason though I don't know why they wouldn't say it.
Obvs they have their reasons so it must work for them.
It’s not like pointing out that Brexit is a disaster is somehow taboo.
Er... when the dust settles, and they can see what the situation is, it could well be worth Rose changing their production to supply the UK market. Like it or not, to even point out that Brexit might be involved even in short term business plans is heard as "down with Britain" by some many potential customers in the UK. Selling now, for supply to UK customers early next year, could well be seen as a complicated and unbound distraction if you're struggling to keep up with demand in your "home market", where costs and delivery logistics are a known entity... pointing that out to people in the UK you may be trying to sell to again next year, some of whom take great personal offence whenever the complications of Brexit are brought up (dunno why, ask them), might not be good marketing sense.
Meh, not a great loss is it? Don’t think I have ever seen a Rose bike out on the trails and it isn’t somewhere I would look when shopping for a new bike.
They offered something different, it's the reason I would have gone back.
By the sounds of it, even if they did keep shipping to Britain, you would no longer be able to custom specify component sizes/gear ranges/tyre choice/saddle choice etc. which was the main USP for me (that, plus still offering reasonable value, lightweight, endurance/sportive geometry rim brake models, a rapidly shrinking niche it seems).
Meh, not a great loss is it? Don’t think I have ever seen a Rose bike out on the trails and it isn’t somewhere I would look when shopping for a new bike.
Not to me personally, they've never really appeared on my 'radar', but it's more important an indication of things to come.
I mean, what's left for Businesses / Economists / Remainers left to hope for? The Lords kick out Boris' latest dickhead move, we get a new 11th hour deal? Does anyone even know what the new deal is?
From our businesses point of view, we support thousands of people who's data is held by Microsoft, we don't really know if they'll be able to access it on 01/01/21 or indeed they'll continue to be able to trade with Microsoft - most users use 365, there's no UK-US trade deal, and without a UK-EU trade deal we'll be a bit stuck. MS do have an office in the UK, but there's currently no Microsoft UK Plc to buy licenses from.
Not making a profit is the daftest thing a company can do
Try telling that to wiggle 😉
Having owned the strangely named Uncle Jimbo for a few years now, I find it quite sad that it's come to this. I bought mine following a demo with Fin and bloody loved it versus a few of the more obvious names. That said, they havent really come through with a lot of MTB product for a while and the fact the chance to fully spec your bike - which was a huge draw for me - has gone, makes it slightly less appealing and doesnt help their market share here behind Canyon, YT etc.