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RS sell an upgrade kit for your 2019-20 Debonair air spring.
RS also sell a new, complete 2021 Spring.
I have a 130mm debonair spring. I want to try a 120mm spring.
If I buy a 2021 120mm spring, can I then cannibalise the 2021 upgrade parts off it if I decide I want to go back to 130mm or are they affixed permenantly?
Bits are interchangeable on 2019 - 21, meaning the ones with the red bits, the debonair in 2018 was black and doesn't have the footnut.
From somebody that's ridden the new spring extensively, get the 2020 because 2021 is harsher and less sensitive.
Yes.
Buy a 2021 120mm full shaft, and you'll be able to fit the foot nut and sealhead from the 2021 shaft to your 2019 130mm shaft.
@getonyourbike I've not seen a single pro review or ride impression yet that says the 21 is anything other than an improvement over the 20. You and Poah aside obviously.
I've not ridden either, but my heavily discounted 20 Lyrik turned out to be out of stock so Ive ordered a still well discounted 21 instead from R2. Hopefully it'll be nicer than my 16/17 Pikes.
From somebody that’s ridden the new spring extensively, get the 2020 because 2021 is harsher and less sensitive.
Goym, could you go a bit more into this? Every review thus far seems to suggest it as a good thing - could it be your setup hasn't adjusted to the change? What is practically wrong with the new spring?
is actually surprisingly good, and explains the downside.
Move the shaft head up to make the fork compensate at 0% sag, you unintentionally increase the size of the second false air spring below the leg (the one we burp with zip ties). This means a fork that without tuning, will be less supple.
Interestingly, it makes the spring curve more predictable, so perhaps it's a case of adapting to the new spring with less pressure?
Not convinced this isn't a solution to end-users experiencing fork dive on a poorly damped fork or a poorly set up fork prioritising not feeling like they are going over the bars at the expense of traction for people who are willing to pay to have their fork tuned.
Why have I come out of this wanting to go buy a DVO or Ohlins?
I think its nonsense as an upgrade.
1. you're robbing negative volume
2. the whole ripple at equalization is nonsense as an issue, when was the last time anyone had an issue with their rear shock not equalizing at top out?
The only problem you fix is the "suck down" because rockshox dodnt get their calcs right, I'm citing vorsprung and others on this point, it makes total sense to me.
the new spring will make it firmer up top and a bit softer in the mid.
front end feels too low in the steep? raise your bars.
I'm actually pleased with this upgrade. The fork is now more supportive and the sag at rest is eliminated. I have been running slightly less PSI than with the old Debonair spring and it has given me more confidence to push knowing the shock support and feel is improved.
Does it feel harsher than before in the start of the travel ?
Not at all. Another bonus is that you are now getting all the travel you paid for. The thing I found with my Lyrik's is that a few PSI either way can make a difference. For my weight 80psi was recommended (fork felt good) with the app and dropping to 77 felt very good, plush and supportive.
The negative volume reduction isn't really an issue as the red seal head is recessed to add back the volume taken away by the assembly being higher up on the shaft.
That was from a friend that tested with SRAM November last year. Used to put in top 30 EWS results.
He's also ridden other shiny things, like the yet to be released new RS fork.
Top 30 ews racer is not like the rest of us. I imagine retail forks will be tuned to suit the 99% not the top 1% who will probably have custom tunes of some sort.
I think you'd be surprised. Very few top racers have custom tunes on forks. Mostly, just a firmer spring rate for support and faster rebound.
The negative volume reduction isn’t really an issue as the red seal head is recessed to add back the volume taken away by the assembly being higher up on the shaft.
The negative air volume is quite a lot smaller on the 2021 air shaft, the top of the new seal head only has a very slight dip in it and its definitely not recessed.
Its still just their subjective opinion. Them being a top 30 racer is irrelevant.
Very cool that you know a big wig like that tho. Very impressive.
The point I was trying to make is that he had ridden lots of equipment and top riders are very well tuned into what their bike is doing and the effects of changes.
The sarcasm was unnecessary.
Naaaah, you just wanted to tell us you know a pro...
It still doesn't make the opinion more valid than any other.
Plenty non pro riders who are "very well tuned into what their bike is doing and the effects of changes"
I fitted the 2021 air spring this morning to my 2016-17 Pikes. It has transformed them. They now sit higher in the travel as advertised, and are still supple in the mid stroke. Great work Rock Shox.
I honestly could not care less if you know who I am or who I am friends with. I was just passing on information so that people can potentially save some money and have better suspension. Make of that what you will, but I'm in no doubt that there will be quite a few racers running 2020 air springs in what will appear to be stock 2021 forks.
@getonyourbike chill winston. Its a sample size of one.
@TheGhost any change in off the top suppleness!?
Ive got 2020 lyrik ultimates and the sag at rest doesn't hugely annoy me. My forks are 170mm but effectively 160mm due to the sag at rest.
Id thought about running the 180mm air spring to get effective 170mm but maybe the new air spring is the ticket.
Carbonroadrat you're coming across as a bit of a dick.
oh piss off greeny30. You're coming across quite precious
The negative volume reduction isn’t really an issue as the red seal head is recessed to add back the volume taken away by the assembly being higher up on the shaft.
Its significantly smaller
quite a few people don't like the new air spring but that isn't a surprise.
Seems that 10mm loss of effective travel is the least of carbonroadrats issues.😁
I like the rhyming slang username though.
Well I’ve got the previous spring in 2 of my bikes and have ordered 2 sets of upgrade parts, so will be interesting to see how they feel. Who’d have thunk a simple air spring could cause such controversy!!
Let us know how you get on timbog160.
I have 'upgraded' 2017 Pikes, 2018 Pikes and 2018 Revs. While frustrated by the 'suckdown' as I thought it was my fault and re-fitted the shaft twice and wasted hours re-checking part numbers, cleaning out the equalization port etc. I am not sure I would spend any more money upgrading upgrades on principle.
What I don't get is, if you usually set sag at eg. 30% then effectively, you don't really loose any bump travel do you, just dip travel ? Whether the bike sits at 0 or 5% is it going to make any real difference other than for equalising the pressure when setting up ?
Does the sealhead sit-in the equalisation port at rest ?
The way I understand it is that now both chambers are equalised, so no real loss in the neg side.
There is a good article on Enduro MTB about the changes that happen in the fork.
https://enduro-mtb.com/en/lyrik-pike-yari-revelation-debonair-upgrade-2020/
What I don’t get is, if you usually set sag at eg. 30% then effectively, you don’t really loose any bump travel do you, just dip travel
For the same static sag your dynamic sag (average ride height) will be lower on the old spring as it's more eager to get into its travel at the start of the stroke and less rampy at the end. Importantly though nothing is being 'fixed' here. It's just a behaviour that is being changed because some people didn't like it. The old spring behaviour is like a dual air system with the positive set at lower pressure than the negative, the new one they're set equally. Whether that's a good or bad thing is personal preference. Some forks like MRP and Cane Creek let you control that, others pick it for you.
Wonder how many warranty claims Rockshox have had from bikes not displaying the correct amount of travel/stanchion showing?
Luftkappe had the same issue of suck down, been running slightly longer air shafts to compensate.
Have ordered a couple of kits, see of JTech will swap out one of the kits to an air shaft, as want to try my reactor with a 140 front fork.
My 2 cents, put about 120km on the new spring, from gravel/xc loops to a few fairly tame dh jump lines.
I agree that initially it felt harsher off the bottom, so I've dropped around 5 psi and removed a couple of clicks of compression from my previous settings and finding it pretty much spot on.
Under it's own weight it rests a couple of mm into the stroke, not the 12-15% I'd observed previously. Less noticeable dive, fork holds up well on the few berms I've hit this weekend.
Recommended!
Luftkappe had the same issue of suck down, been running slightly longer air shafts to compensate.
Ooh. Great idea. I was going to sell my lufftkappe, but I can use it with an older solo air 150 shaft and keep the seal head from the newer 140. Thanks for the inspiration!
Hopefully my order from j tech should be sent this week so I can try them in my revs. Even more curious now since there seems to be mixed reviews
Mine arrived from j-tech this week and fitted it yesterday. First impressions are it works as intended. I've dropped from 140mm to 120mm here so it's not a like-for-like comparison. I also changed seals for skf's while I did it and the wipers were a little dry. This is in a 2018 rev with a charger 2.1 damper and had the 2019 debonair in.
Having said that, it does noticeably sit higher in its travel. On slight-to-medium inclines it actually looks like its at full extension when seated. So, for one I was glad I changed my order from 130 to 120 as I'm trying to make the bike more balanced. Pumped up to usual pressure sag is much nearer to 20% than 30%. But curiously I was able use all but the final 5-10% of travel, where it was 10-15% left for "emergencies". So I'm going to try more pressure or an extra token - which is the opposite of what I expected I would be doing. I am reducing travel though.
It doesn't feel any stiffer off the top. It just goes. So not expecting any worse for small-bump compliance, though I still need to ride it more and tweak it. Fitting was O.K, not quite as easy to squeeze into the stanchion with it being hollow compared to a 2019 but wasn't too much of a struggle. And I didn't need to do any messing about to get the chambers to balance properly. Just pump it up to near about, bounced it about a bit, did final adjustment.
Whether it's worth changing from a 2019 shaft if you're not changing travel, I couldn't say.