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Part of my commute in the afternoon involves coming down a particularly scenic stretch of road which is always bustling with full-on lycra & oakley & silly cap thing wearing roadies. There's a bit of it which is downhill and (usually) has a tailwind and I often see roadies cycling in really low gears with a really, really fast cadence. There's a steepish uphill just after it, but the downhill stretch is long enough that it would justify a change of gears.
It looks really weird to me - I'm always in my highest gear along that stretch. Are they just wrong or is are they doing some training thing that roadies do that I don't know about?
High cadence is more efficient supposedly. One of the things Ferrari had Armstrong change was upping his cadence when he started coaching him,
One of the markers of a newbie on the road is the way they shift into their hardest gear at the top of every hill. Gears don't work like that, and learning to ride at a high cadence is part of learning how to ride a road bike. If you can spin each gear up to 110-120 rpm, you gain so much extra ability in each gear you have rather than thinking 'Ooh, downhill, must pedal hard'.
High cadence also preserves your leg strength in long rides as opposed to clogging along in too high a gear. It also makes attacks or accelerations much more effective.
Power is force times velocity. I have low force and hence high velocity = cadence. I average 105 in races, lower in time trials. I ride single speed off road, and an ability to spin helps enormously.
There's a chance that they might be using it for sprint training. Some folk will separate out the strength part of the sprint and the cadence part of the sprint into different drills.
Always amazes me how many people still grind big gears considering how long (since Lance) its been known that spinning a little gear to preserve legs is better.
Maybe they are riding fixed?
Higher cadence keeps my knees happy. 75 hilly miles today averaging 91.
The Lance high tempo thing is full of shit, a bit like him having "lost weight" and gotten more powerful.
Most pro cyclists have what many would consider to be a high cadence, to the point that riders that are considered as mashers actually have a faster cadence than many casual cyclists. The rider you saw are probably not pros but are at least developing positive habits.
Yes, so full of shit near enough every modern pro does it.
Yes, that - apparently it relies on your aerobic capacity moreconsidering how long (since Lance) its been known that spinning a little gear to preserve legs is better
... remind me, what was it about Lance's aerobic capacity ? Something, I'm sure
Always amazes me how many people still grind big gears considering how long (since Lance) its been known that spinning a little gear to preserve legs is better.
Always amazes me how few people can actually use their gears properly!
The thing about high cadence has largely been debunked - you can achieve the same power output with 60rpm as you can with 100, it just depends on which you prefer personally and which muscular structure you have.
Are you sure they weren't riding a fixed gear? If you ride somewhere even moderately hilly, this means a medium gear - mine's set up for 100rpm @ 20mph, consequently fast downhills are 'fun' . As for Ferrari and Pharmstrong - merely an ruse to divert attention from his doping.
Interesting thread. I've always been a spinner (MTB and road) and never understood how/why some people roll those big gears without making any ground on me.
I'm often surprised at how slow roadies cadence seems to be, especially climbing.
It hasnt been debunked at all, its not about the ability to produce power, and indeed your body is actually more efficient at lower cadences, but pushing a bigger gear causes more muscular damage. Better to load the cardio system with a higher cadence wherever possible so muscles are still in best shape possible when you need them.
No matter what the terrain, I almost always tend to average a cadence of 72-75 rpm, whilst I can hit 110+ on short ateep climbs it seems my natural cadence is mid 70's.
Spin to win boys
Are you sure they weren't riding a fixed gear?
Yes.
This is all interesting. My steely commuter (allegedly a CX bike) has a very low top gear such that I can often find myself wanting higher gears on uphill stretches, let alone downhill. I'd been considering getting a bigger chainring, but maybe I should embrace my inner spinner instead.
Were they in a chaingang? I sustain some crazy high cadences in a group but it seems to fit the ebb and flow. On my own I just cannot keep them up and it also seems to serve no purpose.
Aside from the Armstrong-tarnished fast cadence good or bad debate, they could have been working on leg speed. Another day you might see them mashing I big gear (or more probably they hide all their gear mashing on the turbo). Leg speed plus leg strength equals faster innit?
Depends what OP considers a fast cadence though doesn't it? If he's a masher 90 will seem ridiculously quick but that's what I average on the road now. 110+ on sprinty bits or short hills; just makes it so much easier.
Fast (super fast for of us) cadence was a specific solution for Lance. It then became the accepted gospel for everyone.....odd
Were they in a chaingang?
No, I've seen maybe 7 or 8 people in the last couple of weeks riding solo doing this. The only time I saw a chaingang on the same stretch I didn't notice what they were doing.
mashing
What is mashing? In Yorkshire it means making tea.
Pedalling a big gear slow as opposed to a small gear fast (spinning).
Depends what OP considers a fast cadence though doesn't it?
I reckon 120ish. Downhill. In a low gear. For no good reason.
Pedalling a big gear slow as opposed to a small gear fast (spinning).
Is it supposed to be pejorative?
I don't think so, just a different way of pedalling innit.
200 rpm down a steep hill on the fixed can be fun...
For a short while anyway, it soon gets tiring. Its a good idea to have front and rear brakes to control the speed.
For me, high cadence works on some stretches, whereas a higher gear/low cadence works on others. Certainly, I prefer spinning when climbing, but there are some uphill stretches of road where I find a high cadence just doesn't work.
I don't think the high cadence thing has been debunked at all, but it's not a universal technique and therefore needs to be used appropriately, based on the physiology of the rider and the terrain.
If they had caught Lance befoe Ullrich we would all be mashing out 70-90 rpm
I've always favoured bigger climbing gears. Think my stance was formed from thinking Lance was a tadger back in the day, and big Jan was a dude.
Riding fixed has taught me how to spin better, and to be more comfortable at higher revs on a geared bike.
I know it works (for me) as I frequently pass the same commuters plodding away in higher gears, on lighter weight, geared bikes, they often look to be physically stronger, they've just not overruled their ego's when it comes to gear selection, and are therefore just using the bike inefficiently.
Half of them are triathletes I think... 😉
I don't have a road bike but I do a mixed dirt/road commute on my mountain bike most days and end up playing cadence games down the biggest road hill. I've been riding 1x10 for a few years now and know that if I can make my legs go very fast and very slow I can avoid the slippery slope into big and heavy or expensive cassettes that is 1x11/12 - and it makes the road bits less boring.
I've managed to keep pushing the pedals at just over 40mph in 32:11 on a 27.5 bike with 2.3 tyres, which apparently is a cadence of about 170rpm. I'm sure it looks absolutely ridiculous! 😉
As an ex-triathlete I will defend my old sport, I still use a much higher cadence than most of my roadie and mtb friends and climb more efficiently in general. Plus I change down a lot earlier when approaching the hill. All came from tri training (with the aforementioned Lance effect plus the ideas of matching run and cycle cadences)
A good mate of mine always used to always spin as fast as he could comfortably manage when going down hill, even if he was spinning out. He always told me it was to get his legs used to spinning at a higher rpm. My coach would love me to spin at a higher rpm but he reckons you can do what you can do, you can coach yourself to spin at a higher rpm but it is very hard.
My average cadence has gone up from probably 70-80 3 years ago to 100ish now. For me it feels more comfortable
"Roadies" is a description I only ever hear used on STW. Given that most people who ride on the road also ride other types of bikes its pretty passive aggresive as with this op.
What is it about people on road bikes that scares people who dont ride them, especially STW types?
"Roadies" is a description I only ever hear used on STW. Given that most people who ride on the road also ride other types of bikes its pretty passive aggresive as with this op.
Do you only look here? I hear it all the time, from all areas of cycling, including from roadists themselves...
Quick look over my last few rides, maximum usually just over 110...average around 80, not sure if that takes the zeros into consideration...
My best rides on my MTB according to my power meter are those with high cadence and plenty of force. So big ring and high cadence.
It's quite hard to do. But yields the best results.
roneMy best rides on my MTB according to my power meter are those with high cadence and plenty of force. So big ring and high cadence.
It's quite hard to do. But yields the best results.
I'll have to try that, high cadence and high force you reckon? 😀
As far as Pharmstrong's cadence before and after he started 'training' with Ferrari, apparently there was only a small variation - it was simply his increased pharmacologically-assisted capacity that made it appear although he was spinning faster in comparison to others because they were simply knackered.
As has been said high cadence being more efficient is not proven (and some studies have shown the opposite). Sure it may reduce muscle damage but that's more relevant to pro riders in 1 week+ tours not commuters and sportive riders etc.
Back to the OP's question:
The stretch of downhill, is it the flattening out of a steep descent following a climb?
What often happens is that riders are in a low gear going up the climb, they crest the summit and then, on a very steep section they won't be needing to pedal so they just freewheel down and once the road flattenss out they'll start trying to pedal - while still in the gear they've just completed the climb.
Just poor reading of the road, inexperience etc.
I think that's a more likely explanation that every one of them doing high cadence sprint specific drills!
Two common mistakes one sees in younger cyclists are too high a cadence and too much force on the pedals. This places strain on the body and equipment leading to damage and expense, not to mention the increased danger from higher speeds. Have you ever paused to consider those low cadence riders you are passing? Probably injury-free and riding the same bike that has been in the shed with little or no maintenance for the past decade.
Food for thought.
Downhill with the wind behind you = no pedalling at all in my world 😆
Cadence is a trade off. Higher cadence reduces intensity on the leg muscles, but at the expense of loading the cardiovascular system more. What is the best RPM depends on the particular person and situation.
In any case I found that if I was doing a hard effort, i.e. 70%+ of VO2 then I could only sustain this by pedalling 100+RPM.
If they are pedalling so fast that they are bouncing then this is definitely more inefficient than a lower cadence because they are actually pushing backwards at the bottom of their pedal stroke.
As far as Pharmstrong's cadence before and after he started 'training' with Ferrari, apparently there was only a small variation - it was simply his increased pharmacologically-assisted capacity that made it appear although he was spinning faster in comparison to others because they were simply knackered.
Makes sense. VO2max is supposed to be relatively fixed by genetics and does not change much through changing training techniques. If somebody did relatively quickly increase their VO2 though doping then this would be realised into improved performance by an increased cadence.
High cadence hasn't been debunked, it's just been shown to be a lot more complicated than spin to win.
You also need to look at how much power you are needing to produce, how much you are capable of, how much force you can apply, how "efficiently" you pedal at various speeds, VO2 max and a shit load of other things. So for the same person, one task might be best performed at 80 rpm, another task might be 100+........
And Ulrich wasn't actually that low cadence a rider. Even in the days before he tried to emulate Lance. Just lower than many of his contemporaries.
And high cadence riding predates Lance by several decades, IIRC Anquetil used to be a fan, and i can remember being shouted at by my dad (who hasn't ridden a bike in anger for over 50 years now) to keep leg speed up when i was a schoolboy, which was 30-35 odd years ago. And we used to regularly alternate between leg speed and leg strength drills.
My own highly scientific experiments show that I'm better with higher cadence.
I've got no way to measure my cadence but Basically I tried not changing up a gear until I'm on the verge of spinning out on un challenging terain, saving my thighs so I can give it some welly on ascents, then go back to spinning to recover when it flatens out again.
Seems to work over something like a 20 mile bridalway ride, I don't achieve as high a top speed but my average speed is a little higher, so faster overall.
Probably find that the drug programs the guys were on would affect their optimum cadence too. Ulrich on the roids would tend to slow down and use grunt. Armstrong on EPO and HGH would tend to increase to load the cardio side of things.
And FWIW, if you can't apply force to the pedals when you are spinning at 100+ it's technically flailing at the pedals, rather than pedaling, and won't do you any favours.
Youngsters racing have restrictions on their gearing - which forces them to spin the smaller gears a lot faster. Recently had a 15yr old BC sponsored rider join a club chain gang who only had something like a 14T on back ... he maintained a fantasticly high cadence to keep up; this ability to spin around 140rpm probably carries over as they move up the gears with age ... Just a theory!
In at my most comfortable spinning around the 90-100rom mark, feels like I tire less than using a lower cadence.
Youngsters racing have restrictions on their gearing - which forces them to spin the smaller gears a lot faster.
Why is this? Is the idea to save a young, growing rider's body from being destroyed by mashing high gears? Like touch rugby for young children?
I've got no way to measure my cadence
Can you count to one hundred and do you own a watch? 😉
Why is this? Is the idea to save a young, growing rider's body from being destroyed by mashing high gears? Like touch rugby for young children?
Partly that but also partly to level the playing field a bit.
Kids develop at different rates; you can have a 15yr old who looks 18 and one who looks 12 in the same race so the idea is to try and ensure that the stronger rider doesn't just simply bang it into the highest ghear possible and disappear up the road.
It teaches riders to use skill and tactics rather than simply big gear = GO FAST
The stretch of downhill, is it the flattening out of a steep descent following a climb?What often happens is that riders are in a low gear going up the climb, they crest the summit and then, on a very steep section they won't be needing to pedal so they just freewheel down and once the road flattenss out they'll start trying to pedal - while still in the gear they've just completed the climb.
Interesting... That describes the terrain perfectly.
I've tried spinning it in lower gears for the past couple of days just out of curiousity. I think that I am, to my surprise, somewhat faster, although I can't be bothered to measure that so I don't know for sure. This whole thread is making me think a bit more about my approach to gearing anyway. Thanks everyone!
Roadies" is a description I only ever hear used on STW. Given that most people who ride on the road also ride other types of bikes[b] its pretty passive aggresive [/b]as with this op.
I think the term you're looking for is "good natured piss-taking".
This whole thread is making me think a bit more about my approach to gearing anyway. Thanks everyone!
This is how it started with Lance. It was a roadie gateway to evil. You need to get back to mashing big gears and exploding knee caps before you go up the hill that no one can catch you.
#prayforopusone
I can hold a cadence of 180 fairly easily and max out at 220+ I'm not even very fit.
I'm not a roadie. I'm not a mountainbiker. I'm not a BMXer.
I have roadbikes and all the kit that goes with them.
I have Downhill bikes and all the kit that goes with them.
I have other mountainbikes
I have a BMX
I ride them all simply for the enjoyment of it.
Not sure the point of this thread?
Want to know "why" someone else does something you don't? Ask THEM. in real life. not a bunch of strangers on the internet.
You want to pedal faster? Pedal faster more often.
Sometimes life really is that simple.
You do realise that cadence refers to one complete revolution of the crank?
oh, yes. I think soYou do realise that cadence refers to one complete revolution of the crank?
@scaredypants - I think he was questioning the claimed cadence of 180 -220 not your understanding of the term.
Yeah - there just seemed to be a hint of "noncycler=AWESOME" about that post
Two common mistakes one sees in younger cyclists are too high a cadence and too much force on the pedals
These two things are mutually exclusive, surely? That's basically saying that the mistakes you see are pedalling too fast and pedalling too slowly. So... Yes, those are the ways it's possible to do it wrong...
"Easily" holding 180rpm does sound a little optimistic, POIDH!
noncycler - Member
I can hold a cadence of 180 fairly easily
You are Craig MacLean and I claim my rollapaluza and draft-assisted world speed record breaking Rourke bike.
For years I rode a 53/42 Chainset but after a summer on a single speed mountain bike I learned to spin. I realised I was a spinner and changed to a 34/50. This was the single biggest improvement to my road cycling in 20 years.
njee20 - MemberTwo common mistakes one sees in younger cyclists are too high a cadence and too much force on the pedals
These two things are mutually exclusive, surely? That's basically saying that the mistakes you see are pedalling too fast and pedalling too slowly. So... Yes, those are the ways it's possible to do it wrong...
"Easily" holding 180rpm does sound a little optimistic, POIDH!
Not mutually exclusive at all, try it yourself. You just
1 pedal slowly
2 push lightly on the pedals.
The road to cycling pleasure, simple!
But then you'll go very slowly 😕
"Hold" a cadence of 180 for how long? 10 seconds? A minute? An hour?
Even the best trackies in the world only hold the very high cadences for a few seconds. Anything over 150-160 ish is pretty much "race finish" leg speed. And only for ~15 seconds. And fashion/latest studies/current tactics are tending to move to lower cadences. Gears have moved up 15-20" in the last few years, around mid 90s used to be a sprint gear, the top guys are now on 100+, approaching 110"
I suspect noncycler is just that, a non-cyclist making stuff up.
The stretch of downhill, is it the flattening out of a steep descent following a climb?
Probably just spinning out their legs after grinding up the climb.
Cadence is a very individual thing (muscle make up, heart and lung capacity) and also varies with a whole range of factors (power, fatigue, slope, inertia, position.) There's probably also a bit of fashion in there too. And there are lots of situations you might also want to hold a cadence that isn't optimal based on those factors (a sprint, a need to be able to respond to accelerations, terrain, etc.)
I suspect noncycler is just that, a non-cyclist making stuff up.
🙂
Different people are happier pedalling at different cadences - while muscular efficiency is theoretically higher at higher speeds, there's also the effect of those reciprocating pistons. It takes energy to move your leg up and down, the faster you do it the more energy it needs.
the two effects compete against each other, so the ideal cadence depends a lot on your own muscle structure.
Spinning is also partly a result of not being in an ideal position to push efficiently. I find I spin faster on an upright bike than I do on a recumbent, where I have something to push against.
THIS is super-fast cadence
Average cadence of 237!!
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27249820
Although 50 vs. 100 rpm is somewhat contrived, there appears to be a good effect of spinning on maximum lactate at steady-state.
The higher MLSS at 105 than at 60RPM combined with an invariance of IMLSS and RER close to 1 at MLSS support the hypothesis that higher cadences can induce a preservation of carbohydrate at given BLC levels during low intensity high volume training sessions.
noncycler earlier
We used to have bottom gear races on the school playground. It's surprisingly hard work spinning like a nutter to ride at 10mph on flat. Why? Cos you spend a lot of effort moving the mass of your legs up and down. So my theory is that the larger your legs, the more is wasted moving them up and down, so the slower your optimum cadence would be.
I have big legs and I generally average 81 or 82 over a road ride, which seems lower than some of you.
I mentioned this with the flailing. You need to [i]practice[/i] applying force at very high cadences. Which is where the different drills come into play. And the slightly more old school method of riding fixed in the winter.
Minutes. on the flat. low gear. clipped in. sat down."Hold" a cadence of 180 for how long? 10 seconds? A minute? An hour?
*I find it trickier to hold a smooth fast rhythm on a descent due to the lack of resistance.
Seconds stood up on the BMX on flats.
Can't reach 220 stood up on flats... although my BMX does not have a cadence/power meter.
Never owned rollers. Infact only ever ridden a set once. Just a quick go for the novelty value. and in jeans n T shirt.
Comments on here make me wonder if some of the posters even ride a bike regularly. if so you could probably do with varying your riding a bit and opening your minds.
For roadies a few minutes is less than 5% of the ride, so statistically negligible. When you've done some decent length rides feel free to come back and join the debate.