[Closed] roadies - pedaling technique question

Probably just what comes naturally.

Ankling. You either do it naturally or you don't. Some websits advocates you do it purposefully. I wouldn't.

Always pointing downwards - or are you only noticing the "leading" foot on each rotation?

EDIT; Ankling - I should have known there is a name for it.

What's the reason for this

seat too high 😉

it is a personal thing., some people like a high forward saddle position (closer to a TT bike) some people go for the back and down

as above, its personal preference, i ride toes down because it just feels more comfortable for me.

My Right foot does this. Annoys the hell out of me and I consciously try and correct it.

I just do it naturally. I have to really focus on getting my heels down on the MTB.

druidh - no, both feet. I noticed philip pedaling like this on tuesday night, when i was watching his effortless technique.

I've seen some 'extreme' versions of it i.e toes almost in a 6 o'clock position, whilst others just have a bit of a tilt, and always wondered why - doesn't look comfortable.

are they not just flexing there feet at the end of the stroke?

It's just a continuation of the circular motion and makes lifting the pedal easier and more comfortable, for me.

Never thought about, just seems natural.
Seems odd having your heels down with your body weight forward.

I doubt it matters a jot, unless everyone who does it is faster than everyone who doesn't?

There does seem to be something in the ankling technique. I often deploy this when my legs are otherwise tiring and especially useful on short, sharp climbs.

I think you'll be hard pressed to find anyone riding road well with heels down.
[img] [/img]

I ride with my road bike saddle a few mm lower than I would on my mountain bikes so I can drop my heal and drag the pedal through the last part of the downstroke. My toes only point down as I pull up and over the top.

I'm told I have a very fluid pedaling style.

As was said, toes pointing down might indicate the saddle being too high or a lack of flexibility in the ankles.

Incidentally, Basso was experimenting with an adjustable seatpost at this year's tour which allowed him to lower the saddle by a couple of mm once he was warmed up.

If you look at most pros' positions, they ride with a slightly lower saddle to allow dropping of the heal - compare them to pros in the 80s and 90s who seemed to favour the higher saddle...

From the TTer to the sprinter.
[img] [/img]

Usually it's so you pedal in circles. Toes down to push the pedals back at the bottom of the stroke - Likened to wiping dog shite of the front of your shoe. 🙂

Going up...
[img] [/img]

I started using rollers a couple of years ago for some indoor training and found as my technique improved so did the amount of movement in my ankle. I think it helps the stroke become much smoother or something.

Could be BS, I've no idea, but I quite like the feel of it when I'm out on the road/MTB.

Diagram at different pedalling rpm:

[img] [/img]

60 - 90 rpm, 90-110 rpm and 110+ rpm.

Try it on a turbo trainer, set up a video camera from the side of do it next to a mirror. It's one of those concious things, you have to actually force yourself to do it for a while until it becomes second nature. Riding fixed is very good for teaching it cos if you don't do it right, you break your ankles! 😉

Incidentally, Basso was experimenting with an adjustable seatpost at this year's tour which allowed him to lower the saddle by a couple of mm once he was warmed up.

Don't know about this, but Merckx was doint that 40 years ago. Higher saddle for climbing then lower for the faster stuff.

Likened to wiping dog shite of the front of your shoe

Or a 100M sprinter, to me the concept of forward motion with the body weight far forward and heels down seems blindingly wrong. Upright/moving slowly or weight waaay back okay.

I read that Coppi rode with his toes pointing down, if it's good enough for him...

Coppi rode with a VERY low saddle position compared to most modern cyclists. I doubt his pedaling style is a good benchmark for the modern cyclist, he was a one-off and modern ergonomic knowledge wasn't available to him.
Imagine what he could have been knowing what we know now!

This is the advise I got with my new road bike:

[img] [/img]

(Edit - linked image now not showing - it is also [url= http://twitpic.com/64jvnr ]here[/url])

The only bit I'm not sure about it who is holding the left handlebar grip...

Is there [b][i][u]any[/b][/i][/u] evidence that this helps?

I can see it when one is tired - you are using "fresh" muscles as you do when out of the saddle etc.

As above, most riders will naturally point their feet to some extent on the return stroke. "Ankling" is an old-school technique which involves an exaggerated angling of the foot to supposedly improve performance, but I don't think there is evidence to support this, and it is largely discounted these days.

I believe that modern biomechanical studies have demonstrated that the concept of actually pulling up on the return stroke under normal pedalling conditions is a bit of a myth. The return phase always impedes the downstroke of the other leg, and all you can do on is unweight the pedal as much as possible to reduce this effect. Low rev climbing on a steep hill is obviously different.

As Al is suggesting, I don't think there is much evidence to show that there is any specific ideal pedalling technique. Basically push as hard as you can on the downstroke and use whatever technique you are comfortable with.

As espoused by the coaches when I was a lad, ankling involved dropping the heel at the top of the stroke, to help push the pedal forward, then dropping the toe at the bottom of the stroke to pull the pedal backwards.
The mechanics of it are discussed at [url= http://www.perfectcondition.ltd.uk/Articles/Pedalling/index.htm ]http://www.perfectcondition.ltd.uk/Articles/Pedalling/index.htm[/url]
Riding fixed was encouraged as a way of developing proper ankling technique instead of 'pedalling square'.

As Al suggests, ankling seems to work for me for short intervals or when other muscles are tired.

Muscles are more efficient in the middle of their range. Pedalling with feet pointing downwards may help some people use their muscles in middle range. Nothing more complex than simple biomechanics.

I'm sure Gilbert was doing something similar at the end of some of this years Classics to save his calf's for the final sprint, seemed to work for him.

Incidentally, Basso was experimenting with an adjustable seatpost at this year's tour which allowed him to lower the saddle by a couple of mm once he was warmed up

It's the other way round. He ran his saddle lower before he was warmed up. And also sometimes when climbing.

Sheldon on ankling:

http://sheldonbrown.com/gloss_an-z.html#ankling

he wasn't keen.

I remember reading somewhere an article saying it's more efficient when using flat pedals too.

Can anyone point to a good road rider that rides heels down?

To me it seem the most stupid thing on earth, the sheer idea of adjusting a bike to enable you to ride heels down seems crazy. Perhaps something left to carry on in the MTB world

It works on a road bike as a means of putting in a short burst while staying seated. You can ride as you were, but add in a short burst of extra power from your calves. Useful if you want to push on whilst maintaining an air of nonchalance.

oldgit - Member

Can anyone point to a good road rider that rides heels down?

Here's a photo I took on Sunday of National Crit Champion Graham Briggs demonstrating beautifully how to use a dropped heal to drag the pedal through the latter part of the down-stroke. He's quite a good rider.

[IMG] [/IMG]

At the velodrome if you do a lot of riding around with your toes pointing down (as I do), then the trainers tend to pull you up on it and claim your seat is too high. They say heels should be down to improve power.

Don't know about that myself but I generally suggest politely that they come back to me when I'm one of the slower riders there rather than one of the quicker ones.

LOL shame there's no tension in the chain 😛

Shibboleth, odd that you should pick Mr Briggs. You can probably tell I'm not at all convinced, but one thing I've always noticed with short riders is that they seem almost neutral, like Cunego.
Samuri, trackies are similar not sure if that has anything to do with geometry. It might be worth looking at riders in the banned 'superman' position.

That photo might be a little misleading as he's nailing it round a corner and probably adjusting body and foot position so as not to fall off?

Nope I'm sticking by my guns.
If there was anything in this I'm certain that the likes of Armstrong would have adopted it.
Also a quick Google of the 'Superman' does indeed show all toes down.
The only time it's heels down is cornering a la Briggsy, or dying on an Alp with your butt hanging off the saddle.
With the worlds fastest testers, sprinters, climbers and the old world hour record holders in the Superman all toes down I'm going to be hard pushed to be convinced by a mountainbike forum.

cynic-al - Member

LOL shame there's no tension in the chain

There goes Al demonstrating his complete lack of knowledge about all things cycling. What happens, Al, basically, is that the 'cyclist' turns the 'pedals' clockwise, which pulls a 'chain' round the top of the 'chainring' which in turn pulls the 'sprocket' resulting in forward propulsion. The chain is only under tension at the top. 🙄

oldgit - Member
If there was anything in this I'm certain that the likes of Armstrong would have adopted it.

You're absolutely right Old Git. Lance would never dream of dropping his heals...

[img] [/img]

I agree with you about the superman technique though, definitely heals up...

😉

[IMG] [/IMG]

I wouldnt take any advice from this forum for road riding 😀

Breaking News!
Mountain Bikers don't even know how to pedal properly! 😯

Conclusively proved by Wilko's efforts up there, poor bugger's not even on the pedals!

You're absolutely right Old Git. Lance would never dream of dropping his heals...

Cornering...look you can see he is eyeing up the corner.

And just in case you post another pic, they're cornering.

You fool, he's on a perfectly straight road! There's an old git on the pavement shouting at him to point his toes!!

Shibboleth - Member
There goes Al demonstrating his complete lack of knowledge about all things cycling. What happens, Al, basically, is that the 'cyclist' turns the 'pedals' clockwise, which pulls a 'chain' round the top of the 'chainring' which in turn pulls the 'sprocket' resulting in forward propulsion. The chain is only under tension at the top.

You can see a kink in the upper section of chain.

There goes another noob dis-respecting his elders 🙄

Sorry, but that picture of Lance is definitely when he's cornering. You can even see the curve in the curb and the fact that he's turning his bars, and starting to lean into the corner.

I'm not sure where this idea that modern riders have lower seats comes from. When I went for a fitting, I was told that saddle height has hardly changed over the years. Pros need to be setup so they can do the masses of miles required without injury.

Lance:
[img] [/img]

George:
[img] [/img]

Fabien:
[img] [/img]

Cadel:
[img] [/img]

Canceller is toes down and Evans is cornering.

traildog - Member

I'm not sure where this idea that modern riders have lower seats comes from. When I went for a fitting, I was told that saddle height has hardly changed over the years. Pros need to be setup so they can do the masses of miles required without injury.

It's probably only millimeters, but look at photos of the likes of Indurain, a straighter leg at the bottom of the stroke seemed to be far more prevalent. Modern pros seem to ride with a more pronounced bend at the knee. (In my experience)

paulrockliffe - Member

Canceller is toes down

In relation to his leg??? Definitely less than a 90° angle there Paul...

[img] [/img]

Grabsch?

[img] [/img]

Eddy?

Sheldon on ankling:

http://sheldonbrown.com/gloss_an-z.html#ankling

he wasn't keen.

Ankling tends to aggravate an old tendon injury in my left ankle so I've had to make a concious effort to try and keep my feet fairly level when pedalling. With clipless pedals I don't actually see the point in ankling.

I think I ride toes down naturally and only drop my heels to stretch out my calves every now and again.

I don't know what it means though.

[img] [/img]

Jan?

Obree...
[img] [/img]

Shibboleth what internets are you using, I couldn't find another pic of Evans with heels down. And none of those other pics are heels down?
Same as all the other riders, I think the evidence points to heels down. Google a tour peloton image.

Back in the 70's they did bang on about optimal saddle height. From my experience back then they did try and get as high as possible - amateurs that is. But then again they used to mash monster ratios. TBH I've haven't considered this for years, but I suppose this new fangled cadence thing might have riders looking at saddle heights in a new way.
But to be brutally honest I'm just talking bolios.

Okay crikey has convinced me toes down it is 🙂

Shibboleth are you playing with my head? Obree has his toes down.

In relation to the angle of his leg, his heel is down. The angle is less than 90°. Evens is a prolific heel dragger, hang on...

Nah, I'm only idling time away as I try to wake up. 🙂

I've always had a very flat footed style which I put down to riding a lot as a kid on slippy flat pedals, and I've just carried on riding that way. I have friends who ride very toes down and I think it's simply a personal preference.

What is interesting is the way I seem to be able to ride things with my seat up on the mountain bike that have others dropping the saddle; whether this is due to me being a bit lower to start with is something we've commented on before.

Higher cadences seem to be easier when toes are down though.

The ankling thing has been questioned in the past; there is some piece of evidence/research that suggests that the power in pedalling is almost totally produced on the down stroke, and that the pros just press on harder that us lot of weaklings, but I can't remember where it is..

OK, so there's a slight bend here... Why do photographers always stand on bends?!?

[img] [/img]

Here is is straightening up after a bend...
[img] [/img]

From my experience back then they did try and get as high as possible - amateurs that is. But then again they used to mash monster ratios.

TSY, I'd have been able to tell you if you rode toes down, but I was overwhelmed by the sight of you in your pink see through lyrca and looking at your feet was the last thing on my mind [s]my eyes were fixed on my front wheel all the time instead.[/s] 😀

Interesting thoughts on here, I was curious as I've spent a lot of time working on my cadence this summer and watching how others ride. Those I've seen ankling have tended to be pushing a much harder gear than me on a seated climb.

Druidh, seeing as I know your riding style, when you point your toes downwards, are you still pushing a bigger gear for short/sharp climbs (the ones I'd spin up and you'd 'stomp' up?) and how much of an angle do you take it to? Can't say i've ever noticed you ankling - I must pay more attention to your feet [s]instead of wheel sitting[/s] 😆

Gone quiet Shibboleth?

Here's a guy ankling:

[img] [/img]

Where you getting those shots from?
Obree, I read heels down as past the axle like the Evans pics.
In relation to the leg it'll adjust as you move back and forth on the saddle.

I'll post a picture of me pointing my toes down in the lycra if you like?

[img] [/img]

I wouldn't say I'm ever conscious of deliberately "ankling", in fact I'd never heard it referred to as such, but I've started to think about it a bit more since I started taking a mountain biker out on road bikes.

I rode roadbikes long before mountain biking, so have a natural, fluent pedaling style, whereas this other rider had never ridden clipped in, and whilst a fairly experienced and skillful mountain biker, his pedaling looked very awkward on the roadbike.

Personally, I think if you're making good circular rotations rather than mashing, a slight heel-down technique is a perfectly natural result in the lower part of the stroke (assuming good ankle flexibility).

The only time I consciously think about my pedal technique is when I'm grinding on the flat when I'll try to put more power down throughout the pedal stroke. When climbing, my ankle does whatever it wants to do, however my toes point down as I make a more exaggerated pull up on the back of the stroke.

I'm a fairly high-cadence pedaler too, no idea what difference this makes if any.

I might see what toe-pointing does next time I ride, although I suspect it might be a short cut to tendonitis!

Photos from time trials aren't really representative though as you have a different set-up and tend to sit right on the nose of the saddle in order to produce more power.

I tend to pedal toes down except if I'm putting in a big effort while staying seated, in which case it is a more of a flat footed effort.

whatnobeer - Member

Photos from time trials aren't really representative though as you have a different set-up and tend to sit right on the nose of the saddle in order to produce more power.

Of course it's representative. You just have to consider the heel position in relation to the leg, rather than the horizontal.

You ever used a Wattbike? As well as measuring power, cadence, HR, all the usual stuff, it can measure how that force is applied and show it as a curve on a graph.

Have a look at [url= http://wattbike.com/uk/guide/cycling_tests/pedalling_technique_test/what_the_polar_view_shapes_mean ]this[/url] and play the video on that page too.
If you can find a video of Jamie Staff on it, then play that cos the man is awesome! He was at a exhibition show with one of these things, a come and try it where the general public can have a go on it for 30 seconds. Jamie (riding in jeans and trainers) comfortably smashed even the best club cyclists in all their lycra and cycling shoes. 😉

The ankling diagram I posted earlier is actually a) quite old and b) a bit of an exaggeration to show the effect and it will vary a lot with gear choice, cadence, power output and whether you're climbing or riding on the flat (or cornering).

Most modern pro riders don't have a huge change in the joint angle at the ankle through the entire pedal stroke. With greater technological ability to analyze pedaling comes great awareness of good and bad technique. Most recreational riders base their style on something they read in cycling weekly 10 years ago. Or something their mate told them once.

Photos of riders in corners, on steep hills, during time trials etc don't tell the full story.

It's representative of how people ride in TT, but not in normal road race or club runs. Thats all.

[i]Most modern pro riders don't have a huge change in the joint angle at the ankle through the entire pedal stroke.[/i]

That seems to suggest to me that 'ankling' or the scraping idea is not particularly important?