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So I'm on my commute - its about 7.30, beautiful morning but big shadow pockets as the sun is bright but still low in the sky behind the trees and there is a bit a of moisture in the air left from last nights rain that is diffusing the light. Heading into the sun is not ideal but as usual I'm wearing bright yellow flo wind jacket, flo yellow socks and an exposure front and rear set to daybreak flash. I'm on one of those 40-60-40-60 main roads that are pretty much the most dangerous type of country road and a car gently comes up behind me, waits for a second or two and then passes with plenty of room before indicating right to turn down a minor c road that i'm also going to turn down. Starts to turn and then bangs on the brakes as a group of 4 roadies literally appear from nowhere out of the misty shadows. Travelling at speed in two twos they are in black tights, black tops , black carbon frames, no DRL's and coming out of the sun. Its a straight road but even I only saw them at the last minute although I thought I might of glimpsed them earlier inbetween a shadow gap.
They whizz off and the guy in the car turns right and off down the country road which is very narrow, I follow and a few hundred yards down we both pull in to a gate as a tractor goes by. Guy leans out the window and said 'you should tell your mates to dress like you do - whats with the ninja look?'
I had to admit he had a point - and i saw another group as I cycled into work that were all dark except for one guy with a red top. I often see other commuting cyclists on the way and almost without fail they are wearing bright colours and have lights - also touring cyclists as its south downs and an nice area to cycle, they also always seem to be brightly clothed with DRLs
Roadies either single or in groups are almost always in dark colours, dark bikes, dark helmets, no lights.
Lighten up guys!
Roadies love the ninja look down this way too (London). Is there an inverse correlation between colour and watts?
True.
My kids and I have a game when we drive to the trails to guess how many roadies we’ll see en route. They regularly comment on the stupid dark apparel thing.
Well I for one look cool as shit in black, AND its slimming.
I predict 10 pages with the last 8 comprising two people to a froing mainly about their poor ability to debate with the topic in hand largely forgotten
Isn't telling someone that how they dress is asking for trouble a bit of a no no these days?
Wearing black isn't the problem as that is easily solved by having (small) lights on your bike, something that almost all roadies do because it makes sense.
But to answer the driver's question, the reason roadies, until more recently, exclusively dressed in black (and why competition rules required shorts to be black for example) is because back in the day, road racing, in the UK, was not legal, hence we invented time trialling. In order to 'stay under the radar' and not draw attention to ourselves, regulations required shorts to be black and consequently black became a standard (non) colour for road cycling.
Dark colours weigh less and make them faster innit.
Rapha, team Sky/Ineos, GCN have contributed to the trend. All well and good if using effective daytime lights.
tell your mates
Do you think if he sees a speeding car he tells the next driver he sees to tell his mate to slow down?
No mention of waving. Did you wave? Did they wave? Did anyone wave?
Or just drive at a speed where you can see potential hazards in time to avoid hitting them.
A fact that many drivers seem to miss is that it's not the cyclists legal or moral responsibility to not get hit. Yes, I use lights and rarely wear black to help the hard of seeing/thinking, but the hierarchy of responsibility in the new Highway Code isn't there for fun, it's a serious message.
Good luck with this OP. I brought the subject up of dark clothing and roadies a few years ago and the replies were some what interesting to say the least.
Wearing black isn’t the problem as that is easily solved by having (small) lights on your bike
Or, if you commute round my way, a light that's brighter than a nuclear holocaust pointing directly into the eyes of the oncoming traffic
@muddylegs Yeah the reply above yours says it all really. Hard of seeing and thinking, always the drivers fault blah blah.
I would consider myself a pretty millitant cyclist and over the years and tens of thousands of km cycled have been involved in plenty of altercations with idiot motorists but sometimes we really don't help ourselves.
Or, if you commute round my way, a light that’s brighter than a nuclear holocaust pointing directly into the eyes of the oncoming traffic
I spent the winter of 2014/15 riding in and out of London three times a week (about 60km in and 40km back) and my route took my over Boxhill and Headley Common. I was lit up like a christmas tree the wholetime; a 1200 lumen light on the front, 800 lumen red on the back, two little flashing ones strapped to the outside edge of each drop on the bar (these I felt always helped give a dimension of width for overtaking cars) and a final one on my back pack. Plus a hi-vis jacket over my black top. So yeah, totally agree that you can always do yourself a favour by making yourself more visible.
Yup, that's why I bought a pink jersey, the more people that spot the kn@bhead the better.
Curious.
What was the driver wearing?
Could you both see black cars?
I bought a black jacket for the road bike. This seemed a terrible choice of colour but was £100 cheaper than the bright colours.
Bright pink notice me gilet on top for me+ lights
I don't get the "I won't make myself more visible because people should be looking for me anyway" argument. Of course if everyone drove safely and attentively there's no issue but many (most? ) drivers are at times innatentive, distracted or in a hurry and only looking for the obvious hazards.
What's the use of having the moral high ground from your hospital bed?
As a pedestrian, cyclist and driver I like to think that I'm on the more responsible and careful end of the driving spectrum, but I've nearly been in the same position as the driver the OP encountered
When I cycle I'm mostly a roadie, and a militant bugger at that, I agree with the OP
I would rather compromise my choice of clothing and be alive than wear what I like because I can and end up dead or seriously hurt.
Problem is, loads of clothing manufacturers think dark colours are the way to go for road tops. Bloody stupid idea. I only have one black/dark top, and I only use it on the MTB off road - it's a windproof winter top - I wear a red summer jersey over it if I'm on the road.
TBH, I've been run over with daytime lights and bright colthing, so read into that all you want.
DRL? **** off.
Some rides I'm in bright orange (club colours) other rides I wear black. Still get run-ins with idiot drivers regardless. I don't feel any safer in bright clothing.
I do use a rear light at all times though (built into radar)
Hi Viz is either a red rag to drivers or they are so used to it no one actually notices it.
In an ideal world wear what you want and everyone should be looking for road hazards rather than relying on other people to wear bright clothing and have lights on in the day so you don't have to pay quite so much attention.
These seem to work though
https://flic.kr/p/2ncPh17
Yeah the reply above yours says it all really. Hard of seeing and thinking, always the drivers fault blah blah.
Well, funnily enough, that's how the law works at the moment, as reinforced by the recent Highway Code update.
I don't wear black, I do use lights. But that doesn't absolve drivers from their responsibility to not collide with other road users. Cyclists don't appear out of nowhere.
I used to handle motor claims and the mantra was "if it's there to be hit, it was there to be seen".
Roadies either single or in groups are almost always in dark colours, dark bikes, dark helmets, no lights.
This is not my experience at all. Black shorts though, please wear black shorts.almost all the people I ride with on club runs or shop rides use lights all the time. Can't remember the last black/dark helmet I saw...you'd get a hot head surely?
Must be the day for it.
This am I was riding an MTB off-road, slowed up for 2 older women walking up a track and was asked why so many 'of you' wear black and how she couldn't see them when driving as she was getting old. 'Could you tell the club, if you're a member of one?'. I was wearing a black gilet, but apparently my sage green sleeves made me OK as they were 'bright'. Huh? Then she told me if she hit a rider who was on the wrong side of the road she'd be done for manslaughter, and that she knew the law. She seemed posh and not daft, but...
Half an hour later a dog walker I passed and said hello to (her dog wanted to say hello anyway..) told me all about 60 'of you' from the road club who were riding in a bunch on a lane earlier and were very hard for her to get past. What do you say : ) 60 roadies eh.. clearly BS. I couldn't be bothered to discuss it. Why would you?
Weird. I only saw about 6 people out on the trails in total and a third of them thought their opinions were worth sharing because I was on a bike.
a light that’s brighter than a nuclear holocaust pointing directly into the eyes of the oncoming traffic
And some muppet in a car will still SMIDSY them! Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
Slow down, even if you win at the rat race you're still a rat!
And some muppet in a car will still SMIDSY them! Damned if you do, damned if you don’t
To be fair to the muppet in that situation, a non-lensed mega-bright light burning their retina means they're probably half blind. "I saw your light - couldn't really miss the ****er - but it was so bright I couldn't look direclty at it and so couldn't fully work out where you were. My best guess was you were a dick on a motorbike with full beam on, probably 100 yards away"
Doesn't make the driver right but it doesn't make the rider right/sensible either
a group of 4 roadies literally appear from nowhere
They really didnt
All of my helmets are black, all my shoes are black, all my shorts are black, but none of my jerseys are black. The darkest I have are a green and a purple. I always have daytime lights (LED flash) on the bikes.
I've used lights for years, any time of day or night. Going out without them now feels like riding without a helmet or riding without being clipped in, just "wrong".
Never once thought "shame I brought these lights along" but there have been plenty of times when I've been very glad of them - riding early morning or late evening with the rising / setting sun causing glare, out later than anticipated, caught in bad weather...
The driver who didn't see them by definition couldn't actually see anything approaching when they started turning, presumably they'd of done the same thing if it had been a black car.
Personally I always use light on the road as there are people who will do things despite not being able to see out there.
Meh... bollocks.
Problem is, loads of clothing manufacturers think dark colours are the way to go for road tops. Bloody stupid idea
+1 this
I bought all my kit in black years ago, it was pretty much all Rapha/dhb/castelli/etc sold. In hindsight I regret it a lot.
Also while you're looking on a flashy website one just thinks 'oh that looks really nice - nice and stealthy' - without actually realising how unfavourable that is in practice.
But by the time you have that realisation - you have a wardrobe full of e$pensive, black kit
White overshoes/oversocks help a *LOT* and a little blinky light, white helmet
Roadies either single or in groups are almost always in dark colours, dark bikes, dark helmets, no lights.
I've not found that tbh. Sure, some riders wear dark colours, but not 'almost always'. Personally I tend to wear bright tops, run a rear flashing light most of the time and have a light on the bars too for that special hour or so around dusk when cyclists become magically invisible.
As for black, pah! Morvelo does, or at least did, road kit in camo fercrissakes. In what world does that make any sense. The only time I wear camo on the road is on Zwift.
Rapha, team Sky/Ineos, GCN have contributed to the trend.
In recent years, Sky/Ineos/IG riders have bright orange training kit for non-race use, which says it all really.
Problem is, loads of clothing manufacturers think dark colours are the way to go for road tops. Bloody stupid idea
They do, but there's plenty of brighter coloured options as well. I really don't like high viz, so I wear bright primary colours usually red, blue or normal yellow. Lots of options in those colours. I have Endura in red and an Assos long sleeved jersey in a bright but non-high-viz orange.
The high-contrast black clothing stands out better in some circumstances.
Perhaps, but in MOST circumstances where there's a cyclist, the black is going to be less visible. You could move the black child in that picture to a place where it's well camouflaged, and it would be much less visible than the yellow one in the sun.
presumably they’d of done the same thing if it had been a black car.
Yeah, black cars are less visible. But these days they do come with lights on.
But in case yours doesn't, always turn on your lights when the sun is low.
I was going to post but Molgrips has it covered in both his last 2 posts. Black really doesn’t cut it in ‘most’ circumstances and black cars need drl.
I love the comments on cyclist don’t come out of nowhere and how the driver should have been concentrating better. I’ve been cycling for 40 years and driving for 30 and quite frankly he was doing well. Sometimes the road conditions are just tricky and we should all help each other to stay alive. Car drivers need to understand not every other vechicle on the road is a car and cyclists need to understand that being self righteous is not a survival strategy.
I love the comments on cyclist don’t come out of nowhere and how the driver should have been concentrating better. I’ve been cycling for 40 years and driving for 30 and quite frankly he was doing well
That's a worry. Reminds me of the article I read about a heroic skip that took out dozens of cars because the sun was in the drivers eyes but they ploughed on regardless!!!
Was it a black skip?
Just that when cycling into low sun yellows and orange blend into the light.
Weirdly today i saw a cyclist in black nearly have a bit of a nightmare, but to be fair it was backed up traffic due to roadworks (to put cycle lanes in!) and he popped out from behind a car into the turning lane to get passed a couple of the stationary cars when a car coming the opposite way was just about to enter that lane.
Nothing to do with clothing, but today was Tour de Bristol and i have to say, that many bikes, with Saturday traffic was horrible to watch when i was out and about, there was literally unsafe overtakes every few seconds, for drivers who were basically doing these daft overtakes to join the queue of traffic further up.
Was nice to see so many casual roadies out and about though, just sad to see the dangers of the road being around them all that time.
Ok so it wasn't dozens!!
Is there an inverse correlation between colour and watts?
Most definitely not.
Ok , the skip was indeed black/dark blue after all. Amazing that drivers will actually drive into a large dark object even with the sun in their eyes. Incredible!
“I saw your light – couldn’t really miss the **** – but it was so bright I couldn’t look direclty at it and so couldn’t fully work out where you were.
Not strictly a SMIDSY more a case of I couldn't be arsed to think about road safety for vulnerable users. The IDSY bit is I didn't see you, whereas your example the light was seen but the driver didn't change their driving to take account of the hazard. (Highway Code suggests slow down and be prepared to stop in such a situation).
Last time I was knocked off I had 2 front flashing lights 2 rear flashing lights, bright clothing and it was daylight. I was on a roundabout turning right when the driver came right through the give way bumped into me and I flew into the air. The painful bit was landing back on the deck at high speed. Fractured wrist and badly bruised bum.
I do agree that cyclists should make themselves as visible as possible. However it is no guarantee.
I did get a few quid compensation for that one though. Have thought about just riding round that roundabout until someone ****s me again 😂😂😂
Yeah, black cars are less visible. But these days they do come with lights on.
But in case yours doesn’t, always turn on your lights when the sun is low.
An aside to the actual thread..... if you had any idea how poor my wing mirror visibility is in my van on the motorway on a rainy day you'd sure as shit put your lights on in a grey or silver car.
On topic - this is one where the knobs at both ends of the scale will bleat on about it being exclusively the car drivers responsibility or that all roadies are wazzocks. But they are all mouth breathers that the rest of us have to tolerate. The sane majority appreciate that driving carefully and riding to be seen are not mutually exclusive expectations.
... your example the light was seen but the driver didn’t change their driving to take account of the hazard. (Highway Code suggests slow down and be prepared to stop in such a situation).
Does it say anything about undipped headlights and oncoming traffic - perhaps not to use any lights in a way which would dazzle or cause discomfort to other road users ?
Completely agree with OP. It doesn't really matter what car driver is doing, if they can't see you because you've camouflaged yourself with the road then you risk being hit.
Amazing that drivers will actually drive into a large dark object even with the sun in their eyes. Incredible!
Also amazing that a driver will drive along a road with so much sun in their eyes they can't actually see but guessing the amount of drivers that stop and wait for sun to go down or turn around and go back is pretty low isn't it so they just carry on driving.
There's some wonderful victim blaming going on on this thread.
Does it say anything about undipped headlights and oncoming traffic
Why yes, yes it does! As my comment said, but you knew that anyway!
https://www.planetx.co.uk/i/q/CLCAPRKRTC/carnac-parky-reflective-toe-cover (have been as cheap as ~£4) and similar are great for front and side visibility sunset to sunrise, being a moving high visibility object if you aren't freewheeling.
There’s some wonderful victim blaming going on on this thread.
Possibly. I also see outrage (maybe a bit strong) where none is needed. Again, expecting drivers to drive sensibly AND dressing to reduce the possibly of you recieving life changing injuries should inattention or circumstances minimise margin of error are not mutually exclusive. You can expect one whilst still advocating the other.
If they were riding out of the sun- they’d have been far more visible in black. And travelling far slower than a motorbike- so no excuses for any driver not to see them.
Plenty of emergency response vehicles get crashed into each year whilst their headlights are flashing and blue lights and sirens are blaring. There is nothing available to make someone see you.
Far better to ride like a ninja and assume nobody has seen you- than ride arrogantly in high vis and then post obnoxious videos on YouTube when you get run over yet again.
One of the pro-active thing you can do is the Z line at junctions where cars are waiting to cross your lane. Work your way out to the right a little on the approach, then angle to the left when you get near. This increases your profile to them and the movement catches their eye and helps them judge your speed and position. Then if there are cars waiting to exit the side road too, you can angle to the right next to achieve the same result with them. Hence the Z line.
And cover the brakes too…..
Loads of Z line geekery here:
http://the-ride-info.blogspot.com/2008/08/z-line-introduction.html?m=0
If they were riding out of the sun- they’d have been far more visible in black.
If the sun was that low then there'd be a lot of shadows around, so black wouldn't be a sensible choice, unless they spent their whole ride travelling in the same direction.
Yeah, black cars are less visible. But these days they do come with lights on.
There's a matt grey Range Rover parked around the corner from my work. It is genuinely difficult to see because it is exactly the same colour as dry tarmac.
There's a Range Rover round here painted in proper camouflage. Of course, if you're in a Range Rover, you can afford to not worry too much about whether people can see you, because it's probably not you that'll come off worst in a collision.
I'll add to this my reminder that a green hi-vis jacket and helmet over black tights* when you are riding on a tree lined country road when the sun is out is actually very effective camoflage, and not the bright high visibiliy safety look you think it is.
*this seems to be as much of a uniform for the older touring cyclist as black rapha is for the sunday club run set.
There is nothing available to make someone see you.
No but you can help matters somewhat.
Far better to ride like a ninja and assume nobody has seen you
No, the best thing is to ride in bright colours and assume no-one has seen you as well.
Weird, I've never once had an issue seeing cyclists/pedestrians dressed in black when I've been driving. The road isn't black, the sky isn't black (in the day at least), the majority of things on the road aren't black so every time I see a cyclist dressed in black on the road, I can see them!
It's not hard to pay attention to the road when you're driving, it's just that some people don't want to and then blame others for their own faults.
It’s not hard to pay attention to the road when you’re driving, it’s just that some people don’t want to and then blame others for their own faults.
I see a lot of unlit cyclists dressed in black. I think they are unwise but I see them.
Genuinely baffled by all theses cyclist people accuse of not being visible that they see.
I myself hardly ever see cyclists dressed in all in black, maybe I'm the problem.