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In an ideal world we’d all have top spec lightweight and aero road bikes etc but in reality it’s rarely the case.
If you’re planning on a big ride, I’m talking double century kind of big, how important is bike weight and aero?
Would fitting a set of deep section (50mm) wheels be noticeable?
How much difference does lighter tyres make?
Would swapping components to help the bike shed some weight make much difference?
What would give the best bang for your buck if you were wanting to upgrade your bike for something like this?
Unless you are getting paid. You want a comfortable bike.
Nice compliant frame ie steel skinny tubes, shallow section rims etc decent tyre size.
If the ride is flat, weight is largely irrelevant. If you are fat, bike weight is largely irrelevant. If you are a whippet, planning g a big day in the alps, a couple of KG will make a difference.
lighter tyres will feel nicer, but may puncture more. Wider tyres will be better, generally.
If you are turning a reasonably high average speed, deep rims will save you a few watts, but will be bothersome if it’s really windy.
Assuming you have a bike from the last decade, a lighter set of wheels will give the most benefit, but anything else will be marginal at best.
Weight makes a huge difference as the ride progresses and each little incline becomes more of a struggle.
Fatigue makes a huge difference as the ride progresses and each little incline becomes more of a struggle.
For sure, there's a balance required but I reckon that reducing fatigue is more important. Comfier (and therefore normally wider) tyres and a frame with some "give" wins it for me.
Also how fast do you intend to ride? Cruising and enjoying the view or head down going as quick as you can?
Bike fit is the most important thing for me as is bike comfort. I’d say 28-32mm tyres minimum and also gearing that gets you up all hills OK.
Having said that my longest ever ride - 325miles in a day was on my aero bike with 50-60mm wheels. I just find it so comfy.
I'd be wanting reliability - You don't need to go armoured tyres but punctures are a pain, particularly into a big ride like that. 28mm would offer a little more comfort.
I'd probably want an all rounder. Aero helps but comfort is important. Weight less so unless you are climbing mountains. Bottles and food probably eclipse frame weight differences.
FWIW I've never had the luxury of a choice of bikes for big rides so they were done on a carbon race bike. The same one I did road races on, hill climbs, TTs and weeks in the mountains. The main thing was it was comfortable for many hours. It had to be because I trained on it also. That said there came a point when no bike would have been comfortable.
How fast are you? Faster you are the more aero matters.
How long do you have to prep? Aero socks or shoe covers are best aero gain/£, but riding a better position is the most effective change, but takes along time to learn to hold any better position, especially for 200 miles.
as said above I’d be more worried about being comfortable then anything else. and a new position is deffo not the thing f to do before that sort of ride.
How hilly is it? 50mm wheels aren’t a problem unless it’s a gale, but could be a little heavier. I’d probably use them - as in I do use them! And I wouldn’t worry about weight to the extent of carrying less spares/tools. Take tubes, even if you’re tubeless. Take a chain breaker and spare links. Take a gear cable. Nothing worse than getting stranded after 190 miles when all the ships are shut!
The plan would be for a steady ride, no head down flat out riding.
The bike and rider have had a bike fit and are comfortable. Tyres will probably be 32mm
I’m just wondering if there’s anything that’ll make it that little bit easier over a long day.
Assuming this is a Chase The Sun type of ride? I would say correct fueling is probably also important - decent breakfast and plenty of your fuel of choice for on the bike, don't just rely on the feed stops. Definitely comfort is important too.
Everything will help, but it all depends on how much you want to spend.
50mm lightweight aero wheels with a fast tubeless tyre will help. A GP5000 will be fast, reasonably light and reliable.
Lightweight helps, correct gearing helps. But even if you were riding the most aero light bike, over that distance you’d only be a handful of minutes different than on a decent bike, nice wheels and tyres. Going at a steady pace will likely make less difference. Personally I like light bikes and light wheels just so when I’m tied and stand up on a climb, it’s ice to feel the bike surge (it’s all mental I know)
Hope this isn’t telling a granny how to suck eggs…but I find the key was knowing my food routine. I would tend to not eat enough and then end up close to bonking after 120 or 139 miles. The biggest difference to my speed and even enjoying the ride was reading different people’s fuelling strategies (audax riders know what they’re doing)
I’m just wondering if there’s anything that’ll make it that little bit easier over a long day.
Belgian mix.
And cognac, obviously.
Weight wont make much difference unless it's hilly.
I ended up putting mudguards back on my bike a quarter of the way through my tri as the roads were wet and the discomfort of damp nadgers rubbing was far more of an impact than 600g
Aero gains would be worthwhile if you're going fast, but be cautious about how you do it.
I posted a nearly identical thread about 5 years ago when I was chasing a quad and ended up fitting some trii bars to try to get that elusive 1mph extra that I needed.
I just ended up with Achilles tendon issues instead 🙁
The plan would be for a steady ride, no head down flat out riding.
The bike and rider have had a bike fit and are comfortable. Tyres will probably be 32mm
I’m just wondering if there’s anything that’ll make it that little bit easier over a long day.
Decent food and drink stops. Some nice views. A reliable bike that you are comfortable on and which you're not (excessively) worried about.
The bike is rarely an issue on stuff like that. State of mind, how well you deal with any down moments is way more important.
Food, food, and more food.
Hours on the bike is the next thing. Got to get used to that.
Comfortable bike is a must.
Depends on the ride.
If I was going out alone to ride 200 miles and have a nice time and enjoy the scenery and things then I'd take my Cotic X, steel frame, carbon forks, 35mm tyres, 1x10, as it would be very comfy.
If I was doing 200 miles in a fast group I'd take my super-lightweight Scott CR1, carbon everything, 2x10 DA, 25mm slicks as I'd need the speed when it became a chain-gang and I was trying to keep up.
If I was doing 200 miles with some slower people and spending as much time in cafes as actually riding I'd take my Cotic Escapade, steel frame, carbon forks, 35mm tyres, very comfy but it's set up singlespeed and it's great for riding with slower people. I think 165 miles is the furthest I've been on that bike but it was great.
In an ideal world we’d all have top spec lightweight and aero road bikes etc but in reality it’s rarely the case.
I don't think that's true at all. I've ridden several 600km+ events and my favourite bike for those is a thirty year old 531 steel frame with full length mudguards, carradice and brooks saddle. A dynamo is also handy.
I tried something like this (though not quite as far) last summer for the first time in a couple of years, and I think it’s a matter of prioritising comfort and efficiency. I would take the deep wheels. Tyres will probably be whatever satisfies your risk appetite in terms of rolling resistance vs puncture resistance. I find nice race tyres from Schwalbe or Continental to be a good compromise. It’s a big day out, so I’d wear the more aero of my two road helmets, a tight/aero jersey and non-flappy jacket if appropriate. I’d consider aero overshoes too. Differences in aerodynamics which are pretty marginal over an hour are much more significant over 13 or 14 hours on the bike. However you also can’t afford to trade away much in terms of comfort for that efficiency because you’re going to hurt more than enough without making it any more awkward or tiring than it needs to be.
If you already have a comfortable set up and reliable, fast rolling tyres (like GP5000s) I would say best bang for your bucks would be a cheap set of clip on tribars. They will easily beat aero wheels and lightweight component upgrades, at a fraction of the cost. Full length mudguards are also worth their weight in gold if you are unlucky enough to end up with a long wet day.
I’m just wondering if there’s anything that’ll make it that little bit easier over a long day.
Sit on someone's wheel that spent a lot of money on aero kit and use the money you saved to fuel up with extra cake at each stop.
Depends on what bikes you have. My two steel bikes are really comfy and good climbers (quite light at 9kg for steel) but the gearing is 39x26 lowest so fine for say upto 1 in 12 comfortably. They run 25c these days. I did the Mad Manc last year, 132 miles. It was very hilly, over 11,000 feet with two 1 in 4 climbs popped in at 40 and 80 miles. I took the cross bike running road tyres in 28mm but with 34x34 gearing. Enabled me to comfortably get up all the hills even after over 100 miles.
Pace for that ride was quite quick as we had a cut off but due to hillyness, no groups really formed, you had to pace yourself.
Good tyres make a big difference but bear in mine surfaces and durability.
I don't get too bothered about the weight as all three road bikes (incl. The CX) are about 9kg as there is no carbon
As people have said,fit isthe key thing ,and hours on the bike -->> #milesgivesyousmiles.
I have a racy carbon frame that fits me very well,but if I am thinking of anything over 150 miles I grab my (custom made) steel bike.
It may be heavy but it makes the mile munching effortless.
As a non-roadie who's done a couple of (road) centuries and an imperial century (160k/ 100 mile, dunno what that's called), my 2p is the same. Bike wise, it's gotta be reliable and comfortable first and foremost. So in terms of upgrades: wheels that let you run tyres at the width you want, and won't pinch flat; decent tyres; and then a few hundred grams here and there if you fancy.
I got some Hunt wheels, GP5000s in 28c; and swapped in a carbon seatpost. Otherwise it was just about getting the right fit and getting the hours in the saddle.
More important was fuelling - working out what to eat before/ during/ after. And sitting behind someone for as much of the ride as possible!
Oh, and from experience, I probably wouldn't do a double century on a fixie... 😉
Weight, within reason, won’t make much difference to the average rider. If the bike weighs 10kg, and you weigh 70 kg, losing 1kg off the bike will only lose 0.8% of your total riding mass, so its a minimal gain by losing up to 2kg. Losing above 2kg involves large monetary outlay for lighter components. Have a look at Audax bikes, they are hardly TdF spec bikes, they’re built for comfort, their extra 3kg in mass (if that) does not impact too much on their performance.
Aero is better, and getting a good bike fit is even better. If you are comfy after 50 miles, its a good sign that the bike is good for you, even the lightest bike won’t help you if you are uncomfortable after 50 miles.
The thing I'd pay attention to overall on the bike is tyres. I'd want fast rolling, reasonable volume tyres - the aero/weight weenie will tend to end up on something lighter and skinnier but I've never finished a really big day wanting skinnier lighter tyres, the opposite if anything (relkatively .. obvs you wouldn't start out on tacky enduro tyres for an endurance ride)
If you’re planning on a big ride, I’m talking double century kind of big, how important is bike weight and aero?
Weight, not very unless it's Alpine levels of climbing, if so it's worth having an eye on weight but overall a pound on a bike makes no odds.
Aero, not very unless you're 12 or 24hr TTing and whatever you're doing your position is most of the aero gains.
Comfort and fuelling are both really important. You can upgrade your bike all you like but the pace killer is always discomfort or mis-fuelling, those are the real make-or-break points. Yes a more aero or lighter bike would have saved me some time on the biggest days I've done but I won't notice that, it has no effect on my aside from shortening the ride by a few % at best. Comfort or fuel can be 10-25% differences or a DNF if badly misjudged.
I'm same as Nick above, and use my gravel bike with carbon wheels & 30mm Schwalbe Pro One slicks run tubeless at 60psi max.
Did a 300k last year (with over 3000m of elevation).
Comfort is key and don't underestimate the need of a bail-out gear. My drivetrain was in need of replacement so went from standard 42 chainring 11-42 cassette to 44 chainring 11-46 cassette, increased range plus higher & lower gearing.
At the end of the day you get faster riding up grades not buying upgrades.
In an ideal world we’d all have top spec lightweight and aero road bikes etc but in reality it’s rarely the case.
If you’re planning on a big ride, I’m talking double century kind of big, how important is bike weight and aero?
Yes
And no ........
I've just put my name down for a Sonder Colibri Ti via C2W so I'm almost officially a paid up member of comfort over 'speed' as I've signed up for a 1000km 13800m climbing audax in July.
But if you turn up to an audax in the dry summer months, you'll see everything from the most tricked out aero race bikes to Brompton's. The riders on the former will argue that comfort is subjective, and would rather do 200km at 35km/h with decent cafe breaks every couple of hours to stretch out. The guy on the Brompton will probably make it round just inside the cut-off
I've got a half baked plan that if I fail at the 1000k this year, I'll go back next year on a tricked out carbon, aero, flat out race bike.
Would fitting a set of deep section (50mm) wheels be noticeable?
I've made concessions to speed though and spec'd it with the Sonder ~35mm deep carbon rims, They're not deep enough to be truly 'aero' but should save a few watts (and almost a pound weight over the OEM alloy wheels) over a normal alloy rim. They will give a nice profile to 28mm tyres which is the main reason.
Over the last 20 years a lot has changed. I think we've finally reached the point where tech has evolved and trickled down and now even on an average clubrun you can buy enough watts to make a difference. There will still be fast people on all sorts of bikes, but you notice people who you used to be level with now streak away on the descents with their carbon wheels.
How much difference does lighter tyres make?
More than you'd think, less than some would have you believe.
28mm tyres are now normal, because paired with the right rims they're faster. Don't buy anything smaller.
And at that width tubeless make sense because you won't need to run more than ~75psi at the absolute most anyway. Zipp wheels aren't even rated for more than 72psi these days. The era of 23mm tyres at 120psi has passed.
In a roundabout way though, the less you ride the better value they are. GP5000's are great, and seem good value if you do ~2000miles a year for a coupe of years. The reason half the clubrun aren't using them though is the cost if you're getting through 2-3 rear tires a year.
Would swapping components to help the bike shed some weight make much difference?
Yes.
A good quality carbon post is as important as a good saddle.
Stems - well they have to match at least.
Bars - ergonomics and stiffness Vs comfort is important.
Saddle - comfort first, weight second.
Basically pick the brand / model that fits and works well for you. Then decide how much you want to pay to shed grammes. A heavy £40 set of alloy bars will be better for you than a £40 set of carbon bars of ali-express. The £200 version of those alloy bars will be about 100g lighter though.
What would give the best bang for your buck if you were wanting to upgrade your bike for something like this?
Always the inner tubes first, That'll save 200-250g swapping to Ridenow TPU tubes from whatever OEM tubes were fitted.
Then the saddle if it doesn't fit well.
Then Tires
Then Wheels
After that it gets less clear-cut as saving weight on finishing kit is often as expensive as saving weight from the groupset.
it has no effect on my aside from shortening the ride by a few % at best.
I'd caveat this advice from JamesO that being a few percent quicker solo is negligible, but it being a few percent EASIER in a group (because the speed is set by the group not your effort) might be the difference between you cruising round the whole route in comfort and flogging yourself into a headwind because you got dropped.
Time will tell if I'm wrong or not but my aim is to get faster with the aim to hang onto a group and share the work doing 300k/day in 10-12 hours riding doing 1/3less work, Rather than get dropped and have to do 100% of the work, solo, for significantly longer.
I’m just wondering if there’s anything that’ll make it that little bit easier over a long day.
An Italian doctor and some EPO
Takeaways from my festive500, whilst the road bike is faster than the gravel bike, its not nearly as comfortable (Aethos on 32mm, Crux on 42mm).
On the Aethos, I've swapped from sworks mondos (which ironically were a bit shit and punctured too often, despite being an endurance tyre), to Gp5000s, probably 2mph quicker and the bike is much less harsh.
Both bikes are on 3.2mm gravel tape, will change out the bars on both for something a bit more forgiving and narrower. Currently on whatever ali bars spesh source.
Plan a decent stop halfway through for proper food. Gives good target to aim for, rather than just churning down the miles.
ransos
I don’t think that’s true at all. I’ve ridden several 600km+ events and my favourite bike for those is a thirty year old 531 steel frame with full length mudguards, carradice and brooks saddle. A dynamo is also handy
This ↑
Comfort is key; that includes both 'bike fit' and steel frame / larger tyres / dry arse but also having the room to carry additional layers, change of cap / buff / gloves, food, sun & chamois creams and if you really want to go full-audax, a brass utility key so you can get tap water from church yards etc
Ability to carry plenty to eat & drink also cuts out a hell of lot of faffing when you do want it
My longest ride (235km, so not epic by a lot of the standards set above!) was on my gravel bike (853 steel, carbon fork, handbuilt 25mm deep aluminium wheels). I just swapped from tubeless 40mm gravel tyres to 32mm Conti 4 seasons (the posher new ones, not the older ones). I cruised round and never missed the road bike once except maybe on the descents where the really nippy handling and lower front end might have been a little bit more fun.
I don't think weight matters as over that distance I don't think you want to be riding in the punchy aggressive sort of manner that a light bike rewards. I guess aero does matter and some of the studies that have been done recently (Dylan Johnson/Silca type stuff) suggest that slower riders almost benefit more from aero improvements as they are out riding for longer, so there is more time for the gainz to stack up. Not sure if that's actually relevant for an Audax type ride though.
I would definitely spend the money experiment with saddles, I spent a ridiculous amount in the last few years but think I've finally landed on a saddle which I'm comfortable on for long days out on gravel and road. A really good waterproof (light, well fitted, non-flappy, breathable? Whatever the modern equivalent of Shakedry is I guess). Gadgets like extra battery packs or a Garmin with the longer battery life (I specifically upgraded to the 530 for the ~15 hour battery life. Hasn't let me down yet but I've not tested the full 15 hours...).
Edit: oh yeah and definitely agree with the clip-on aero bar suggestion, not only is it likely to be the biggest aero gain you can buy (I think, am quoting a Youtube vid here) but it's easy comfort also. I'm going to buy some soon for longer gravel rides in the summer where I might be finishing on a long tarmac stretch and want to rest my arms. Make sure and look for models with risers so you can set them higher, the cheap clip-ons just bolt immediately on top of your handlebar which I think is typically too low unless you train for it.
Ability to carry plenty to eat & drink also cuts out a hell of lot of faffing when you do want it
+1
With a bit of fitness then the average clubrun upto 100k is easy to do on a decent meal the night before, porridge and a cafe stop for cake and coffee.
Anything more than that though and you should be eating, aim to consume between 1/3 and 1/2 in carbs whatever your bike computer of choice tells you that you're burning (no need to replace fats which will be the other 2/3).
Faff is the enemy of average speed. It's why I'm torn between tubeless and TPU tubes for next summer. Tubeless is faster, tubeless should mean no punctures. But if it doesn't seal that could be an hour lost between pumping it up, riding a bit, pumping again, anchovy, pump, before giving up and putting a tube in. Vs swapping a tube which could be done and dusted in 5minutes.
Best option I found was to set a schedule, set off at A:AA, leave cafe at B:BB, finish lunch at C:CC etc. If you're running late grab food on the go and don't stop. OTOH if you're ahead then you can stretch it out and relax a bit. But as long as you set sensible average speed goals then it prevents delays getting compounded by 5miuntes dithering here or there. If you faff getting going again after the cafe stop, that's eating into your lunch break etc. And unless you've set ridiculously easy targets, gaining time on them riding is very difficult.
Would fitting a set of deep section (50mm) wheels be noticeable?
Yes - going from a aluminium rim to carbon and deep will save 10W+. Well worth it if you're happy to spend the cash.
Tyres are key. Conti GP5000 is the king really, especially with puncture protection being a concern. Tubeless or latex tubes.
A clean chain with a fast lube is another large gain. I would buy a waxed dura ace chain (dura ace is a bit faster by itself).
Narrow bars will also save you a lot of watts for not too much money, dont even need to be aero. E.g. swapping from something like a 44cm bar to a 38cm/36cm is a nice low hanging fruit.
An aero helmet is worth buying for a little bit more dosh. Clothing needs to be tight and not flapping around.
Finally, shaved legs (assuming warmer weather) will be faster, and make sure the steed is clean!
going from a aluminium rim to carbon and deep will save 10W+
And the ball park saving from tri bar extensions could be around 30W+. If the question is what upgrade would give "the best bang for your buck" as per the original post, a cheap set of clip-ons beats an expensive pair of deep section wheels hands down. As mentioned above, a lot of long distance Audax riders also use them for reasons of comfort.
I’ve signed up for a 1000km 13800m climbing audax in July.
How's the prep going? I've entered LEL so I reckon we'll be exchanging notes. I did 240km last Saturday which was cold but beautiful. Frozen bottle and snow!
How’s the prep going? I’ve entered LEL so I reckon we’ll be exchanging notes. I did 240km last Saturday which was cold but beautiful. Frozen bottle and snow!
Crap
I had a bout of bad cold/manflu over Christmas.
I put on any weight I'd lost.
I didn't get out much due to the weather.
Then I bailed on The Poor Student 200 because a clubmate got hit by a car about 10k in, and then there was black ice followed by sheet ice so I just couldn't shake the feeling it was going to end in disaster even though I was feeling good.
But despite all that, I have been vaguely consistent in getting out twice a week when the weather's not icy plus commuting, so that's still a weekly total of about 180km on a good week. And on the more popular club runs when the weather's been kind I've felt strong and definitely fitter than the people I'd normally compare myself against so on that basis I'm still having a good winter. I'm pinning my hopes on it getting exponentially better/easier going into Spring and maybe riding with a quicker group.
Debating a DIY of the poor student to exorcise that demon before the end of the month too. Either that or I'll keep it in my back pocket as a potential 300 route riding from home in late Spring.
Sorry to hear your troubles but your weekly riding looks like it will give you a solid base.
Faff is the enemy of average speed
Tru dat.
Narrow bars will also save you a lot of watts for not too much money, dont even need to be aero. E.g. swapping from something like a 44cm bar to a 38cm/36cm is a nice low hanging fruit.
Yes, but will they be comfier?
I get some odd looks when I do Audax's on my gravel bike as it's got a set of 46cm Ritchey Beacons (big, big flare) - but they're bloody comfy and loads of hand space on the tops. Also because they've a low drop it means I'm happy using the drops quite often.
but also having the room to carry additional layers
I run a frame bag - loads of space (especially as I'm on an XL frame) for everything needed and out of the way. No idea if it's less or more aero, but in my head it's AERO 🙂
Would fitting a set of deep section (50mm) wheels be noticeable?
A bit, yes. But they are more noticeable the faster you go, and at that distance you aren't going fast unless you are a seriously good cyclist.
For what it's worth, when I put on cheap Prime 45mm wheels I was stunned by how smooth and comfortable they were compared to my cheap alloys. I was expecting them to be harsher. Also, I really like expensive plush tyres, they add a lot of comfort too.
At the end of the day you get faster riding up grades not buying upgrades.
Actually it's both.
Yes, but will they be comfier?
Well, I can't say for sure, but I have 36cm on the winter bike and 30cm on the summer bike - both of which are fine for 100+ miles. I've never done a double century, so couldn't speak about that. 30cm is a bit narrow for climbing out of the saddle regularly (can't use shoulders so much), but 36 or 38 is perfect for an all round road bar IMO.