[Closed] Roadie question (TT content)

Yeah you need steady effort on a TT.  If you go flat out at the start you'll be anaerobic, and you'll have to deal with the effects of all that lactate for the whole course.  I've done these things with a power meter - threshold power feels firm but easy when you set off, but towards the end you'll find yourself drifting downwards naturally and it'll be harder to keep on it.

I'd say start off firmly but without too much bother, your HR will rise to somewhere around your threshold within a few minutes, then after say 4-5 mins start easing up to see where your threshold really is on that day.  I've found that when doign a steady effort it's quite easy to settle on your threshold - the highest sustainable level - if you go over it you'll end up slipping back down to that level.

When I moved to a powermeter about 12 years ago it was really eye opening. Previously I'd have a TT strategy of getting up to say a 160 heart rate and then with X miles/minutes to go opening up to get everything out. What the power meter revealed was that a consistant heart rate did not equate to a consistant power output, especially towards the top end of your ability and the opening up section with a higher heart rate often had a lesser power output than earlier in the race.

What I'm saying is probably with only heart rate (and percieved effort - don't discount that too) to gauge you start lower than you might think and let it creep up then maintain it at your goal rate from about the half way stage. Getting to that rate too soon will blow your chances of maintaining form to the end. This is based on a proper max effort over the distance so you are pretty much only fit to lay on the floor and throw up at the end - if you are taking it more easy it's probably less of an issue.

I did loads of tt”s before getting a hr monitor and eventually getting a power meter. The biggest piece of advice if you are only racing on one course would be to go and ride the course loads of times beforehand as part of your training. You will learn by making mistakes and learn where to put effort in and where to ease off to recover. I used to go and ride the course 2-3 times per training session. I found that because I knew my local course so well that getting a power meter didn’t make much difference on race day. It helped massively for training though. You also need to exercise some restraint on race day because it’s easy to over do it early on. This is where a power meter can help and a hrm to a degree.

For me, without heart rate or power data this was the best piece of advice I received.....

Split the course into thirds, then pace it so the last third is your fastest and you have emptied the tank at the finish line.

You also get three matches to burn. One in each third, were you can go deep into the red but for no more than a 30 second period. This may be a big effort to get over a rise /small hill etc for example.

You could adopt the Chris Boardman approach... Keep asking yourself "can I sustain this effort until the end?"

If the answer is "No", then you're already cooked...

If "Yes" then you need to go harder...

If the answer is "Maybe" then you're probably on the right track.

Heart rate is a bit delayed for a ten. I did try to pace it off HR a few times but it didn't add much. My HR profiles used to ramp up to about 95% of my max in a couple of minutes and stay there for 22-23 minutes. Course details made more of a difference. 2 laps, couple of small rises to power over each lap, one bit that always had a headwind. You can be taking it easy on a down slope but your HR won't drop.

I pretty much always pace of experience. I know what it feels like to ride a hill climb, ten, 25, mountain time trial, century etc. and have a good idea what is sustainable. Granted that won't get you optimum performance but I'm on a road bike anyway.

Trailwager's seems like good advice from experience. It is pretty much how I would approach a long hilly TT. Problem with Boardman's advice is that at the start it is a yes, which drops to a maybe, then a no at the end and is the opposite of a negative split.

You could adopt the Chris Boardman approach… Keep asking yourself “can I sustain this effort until the end?”

If the answer is “No”, then you’re already cooked…

If “Yes” then you need to go harder…

If the answer is “Maybe” then you’re probably on the right track.

I *think* it was Greg Lemond that suggested a strategy of 'leave the start ramp and spin your legs up to speed, then change gear. Spin legs up and change gear. Keep going until you run out of gears'

'And that'll get you a good result?'

'It'll mean you aren't last'

Good thing about a ten is that you can do them every week and find what works for your own physiology - for me, advice like ride it like a five is effective [ie the finish line is at 5 miles, LOL no it isn't, you need to ride another five] because I'm slow, basically, and my body seems to effectively check me from going too deep. Brain needs to crack the whip on the legs, big time. For others that would be suicidal as they can go massively into the red so would be drowning at 5 miles riding like that.

Vomit on the bars and blurred vision at mile 9.9 is a Noble aim, but actually really hard to do. You have to get pretty good at testing before you can measure your effort like that.

I've done two tt's in my life so feel highly qualified to make a few suggestions. Its a 10 mile tt, just pedal like the clappers and try to sustain that then when you're done realise its a tt and pretty dull andvthen go and do something more interesting.

I've TT'd on and off over the years - before power meters and quite often used to ignore my HRM and simply go on feel, a typical 10 mile TT stategy being go out hard, and come back harder! Looking at my HRM profile afterwards and what I felt were 'recovery' phases were often no more than 5bpm below my average.

Thanks for all the replies. Just to clarify a few points:

a) I have done this particular 10 a few times before (in 2015/2016) and so was curious to see if all the riding I'd done since then had had any effect on me?

b) I'm not bothered in my position, or other riders. I'm an old guy on a cheap road bike (and I'll be on my way home from the office!). I just want to compare myself to other instances of myself.

c) I'd like to be a bit more rigorous in my approach (i.e. trying to have a plan) but I doubt very much that I'll be puking on the bars any time soon (see (b))

For those that do use %HR as any kind of metric, what sort of level are you sustaining for 10 miles (given that my anticipated time is probably just under 30 minutes)?

e.g. Is 90% achievable? I'd be inclined to think that I've only got 10 minutes or so of that, so perhaps save it for then end. Then again, there are a couple of smallish hills (well one is a bridge!) where I might need to dig for 30s or so. Or should I expect to go at >=90 for the whole thing?

Rob

Heart rate is not entirely consistent and will differ depending on levels of fatigue. My general strategy (and I should mention I'm not a very good TTer) is to get up to threshold based mostly on feel and then sustain approximately whatever my HR is at the time.

So, my max HR is around 183. If I'm feeling fresh I might be able to hold a 10 mile close to 175. But then other times the more fatigued me will struggle to reach 170, never mind ride at that rate consistently. Those days I might be happy with 167...

Oh, and warm ups are important. I used to do a good twenty minutes with one hard sustained effort for a duration of 30 seconds about half way through.

The body needs time to respond to hard efforts like that. Its a bit like going into shock. The plan is for the body NOT to do this when you start the TT, give it its first shock during warm up and then it has time to adapt and prepare for the big effort to come.

For those that do use %HR as any kind of metric, what sort of level are you sustaining for 10 miles (given that my anticipated time is probably just under 30 minutes)?

There's no way to know other than to try it out.  You probably don't really know your max.  I know from experience that 183 ish is about my max sustainable, but only from doing stuff like TTs and long steady climbs like the Hermitage/Tal y Maes in the Black Mountains.

Then again, there are a couple of smallish hills (well one is a bridge!) where I might need to dig for 30s or so

Advice I was given by a very good rider is to stay the same all the way along. So don't punch it for the hills, just keep at the same page.  The theory being that going into the red causes much more damage to your fatigue levels than the benefit from the extra power.

Not entirely sure that holds true for all courses and all riders though.

You probably don’t really know your max

I have a pretty good inkling - Matlock Top 10 - Riber 😉

butcher - So even on a bad day you're talking of 91% max average. I think I'm going to have to upgrade my plan!

It's more like 95% for a TT.

If that sounds like a lot remember that doing the event with a number on your back is a completely different game. Like if you ride home from work tonight and try to hit a 95% HR for a few miles it will feel like a ridiculous, unsustainable effort. But it's very doable in a test.

If you are riding on HR, I'd recommend ignoring the monitor at the start and deliberately starting at a pace that feels "too easy". The lag in HR makes it impossible to use it as a useful measure in the critical early stages.

After many years of TT-ing on HR and feel, it was very revealing to see how inaccurate my perceived effort was in a race situation. I understood the principle of riding up to threshold smoothly, but even when I was consciously attempting to ramp up my effort carefully, I was still riding too hard at the start. Riding to threshold from the start, using a power meter, was a lot easier than the effort I expected to make.

Once you are a few minutes into the event and things have stabilised, your HR reading will be a lot more useful. Choosing a % of max HR to ride at is probably not very useful. You would be better riding as many TTs as possible, or doing some FTP tests to gauge your threshold HR, and using that as a target. You should be aiming to ride to the same threshold all the way. The key to a good time trial is getting to that level without burning your legs and then sticking to it as closely as possible, regardless of terrain and conditions.

If you do a few 10s and record your average HR for the events, that should give you a good starting point. Riding TTs is probably the best way to get a useful result, because you are more likely to make a true effort in a race situation (even if you are just chasing your own PB in a club 10).

90-95% was my typical effort for a 10 mile TT - my warm-up was longer than the event, usually the 12 mile ride there. When you do a few rides, you'll get a better feel for what your maximum effort feels like - not pleasant - as is making sure you don't blow before you get to the finish.

Forget maximum HR, you probably haven't estimated it accurately. What you need to know for pacing is threshold HR. This is what you can sustain for an hour and is about 93-95% of my maximum. Then pace on this, set target of threshold on the way out and 105% of threshold on the way back.

I used to just go on absolute value, get HR up above 160 quickly, then push it to 167 and on the way back I'd want to see 17x, where x is a function of tiredness.

When tired X might be negative!

And I set the Garmin to lap on 2.5 mile splits, that way I can look at HR(lap) average and speed and power etc.. It is also nice to know you are a 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 done.

if

I just want to compare myself to other instances of myself.

then don't

be a bit more rigorous in my approach

(I've done two 10s in my life, both last year.  first time, the start was downhill and I think maybe that stopped me from overdoing it, also the fact that I was clearly catching my minute man meant I thought I was probably going too hard (guy turned out to be in his 70s I think)

Second one, the start was downhill, very straight so I could see my minute (wo)man and nearly caught her within about a mile and a half.  She then disappeared up a hill and ended up taking the QoM.

... so my advice is don't look up - at all)

OP what riding have you done since the last TT?

Unless it's the sort of riding that will make you faster.....

… so my advice is don’t look up – at all)

As someone who broke both wrists cycling into the back of a flatbed lorry tting with my head down can I just suggest you  take this advice not too literally! 😁

If you are riding on HR, I’d recommend ignoring the monitor at the start and deliberately starting at a pace that feels “too easy”. The lag in HR makes it impossible to use it as a useful measure in the critical early stages.

If it's a familiar course then you can within reason use actual speed as a measure for the minute or three it takes for the HR to catch up. So from prior testing, or a rolling start when you're already riding and warm what speed would you ride that first section at to be at the appropriate HR? Leave the line, accelerate to that and then stick there until the HR catches up. It's not exact and of course not possible if there's a substantial head or tailwind but feasible. Or on a flat course, if you're expecting a 30 minute time, then get up to 20-odd mph and hold there to start with.

or those that do use %HR as any kind of metric, what sort of level are you sustaining for 10 miles (given that my anticipated time is probably just under 30 minutes)?

Just under 30 minutes? Is it a time trial or a recovery ride 😉 (I'm allowed to say that because I'd be delighted with sub 30 mins currently)

https://www.strava.com/activities/71237310/embed/582345d276ed583a39958197f8a55d7db3180611

Not ridden with a HRM in races for ages as you can tell. But went to about 95% in the first 3 minutes. Held for most of the distance, ramped it up to max for the last few minutes. Max was probably 187 at that time.

I'm not expecting anything great because I'm an old bloke on a stock (cheap) bike. When I last rode the route (looking back at Strava it was 3 times in 2015 and once in 2016) I wasn't riding as much as I have been over the last 18 months or so, and I'm just curious as to whether any of it has made any difference or not.

None of my additional riding has been targeted at 10mile TTs (last year's plan was SDW in a day, so quite different) but I do feel like a different rider to the person that I was. Whether or not that translates we'll see.

I'm a bit perturbed by the idea of holding 95%+ for the entire ride. Not sure I've got that in me!

I wasn't planning on riding the route beforehand because, like many TT routes it seems, its not that nice of a road (and I'm not all that fussed).

Thanks for all the replies, suggestions, and data. All good.

Rob

Well that happened.

It wasn't a classic night for TT. Blustery with occasional showers. Thankfully it didn't rain on the event, just in the ride to sign on, and then again to the start.

I did 29:15, and wasn't last, so I'm happy with that. My average HR was 88% and max 94% and it was a pretty gradual increase, so I could probably push harder, but the overall "shape" of the effort seems to have been OK.

I'd like to say that it was slow because of the conditions, but someone took the all-comers course record in 20:55, so obviously conditions weren't *that* bad 😉

Thanks

Rob

Good stuff Rob. You can go harder on the HR probably, I didn't know my average HR as a %HRMax so I went back and had a look at a few races:

10 in the Summer 95%

10 in the Spring 93-94%

25 92%

50 88-89%

I am 50, so if you are younger than me, you can probably push on a bit more. I also find my avg HR in the bit of XC racing I've done is quite a bit higher than for a TT of the same duration, so if you do some MTB racing you can probably push on further still.

A lot of TTing is the head*, you will find you can go way deeper than you imagine when you start out. It helps to be very fresh mentally for a 10 as it is a real test of your mental strength to perform to your true potential. When I've done a real good one, I can smell blood, but it doesn't happen too many times in a season.

*Which is why testers are so OCD about things like creaky bottom brackets, number pinning, anything that might cause doubt or a drop in concentration in a race

if you are younger than me

Sadly not, but I'm not all that much older. I'll push harder next time 😉

I have done a couple of MTB races but they were relatively short-track (on the hour +1 lap basis) and actually I found that I didn't push as hard. I think that's because I'm not so good over the technical stuff, so it was very much more stop/start. Certainly the Strava estimates of power were well down on what I get if I go for a "normal" MTB ride.

The next one is in a couple of weeks so I've a bit of time to get "better", though I'm not sure whether 2 hilly days MTB in the Peak translates well to a flat 10 TT course 😉

Rob